Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

The timing, from what I have found through study, states in both 1 Thessalonians 4:1`5-16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is at the last trumpet. 

Precisely.  And Jesus adds in John 6 that the resurrection of those who are His takes place on the last day.

So, the rapture takes place at the last trumpet (trumpet of God) on the last day.  Really don't see anything "pre" about it.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Precisely.  And Jesus adds in John 6 that the resurrection of those who are His takes place on the last day.

So, the rapture takes place at the last trumpet (trumpet of God) on the last day.  Really don't see anything "pre" about it.

Yet, there reason why we should always be ready.  We are not guaranteed tomorrow.  We are not even guaranteed the next second.  Why even worry about when the rapture will happen at all?  But the discussion is an interesting one.  I use to think the rapture could happen before the tribulation because I was told it would and that His children were not going to feel His wrath.  It all sounded so good and cozy.  Then I studied the bible myself and was surprised that what I was told did not hold up to scripture.  There is more than one way to be kept from His wrath.  I've tried to stay out of the debates about it, but when a normal conversation comes up, I sometimes will throw in what it was that made me look deeper.

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

Yet, there reason why we should always be ready.  We are not guaranteed tomorrow.  We are not even guaranteed the next second.  Why even worry about when the rapture will happen at all?  But the discussion is an interesting one.  I use to think the rapture could happen before the tribulation because I was told it would and that His children were not going to feel His wrath.  It all sounded so good and cozy.  Then I studied the bible myself and was surprised that what I was told did not hold up to scripture.  There is more than one way to be kept from His wrath.  I've tried to stay out of the debates about it, but when a normal conversation comes up, I sometimes will throw in what it was that made me look deeper.

Exactly right.  Ultimately, prophecy will come to pass according to the will of God, not the wishes of men.  We are exhorted time and again to be on the alert, to stay awake. We are never told to assume the role of prophecy arbiter.  Walking in the truth is what we should focus on.  If we don't do that first and foremost, will it really matter how we understand prophecy?  Priorities.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Correct!

But it's not pretrib, it's pre wrath. Pre 'sudden destruction', which is the wrath of the Lamb and not the whole of the last week.

Ah! You are correct, it IS prewrath; but you are also mistaken, it is ALSO pretrib - for the 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal with the 30 minutes of silence. Always remember, God "marked" the 70th week with 7's. Believe it! It is truth!

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Exactly right.  Ultimately, prophecy will come to pass according to the will of God, not the wishes of men.  We are exhorted time and again to be on the alert, to stay awake. We are never told to assume the role of prophecy arbiter.  Walking in the truth is what we should focus on.  If we don't do that first and foremost, will it really matter how we understand prophecy?  Priorities.

There may be more to this equation: If Jesus is coming only for those who are expecting Him (last verse of Hebrews 9) then what people believe may well have something to do with WHO will escape. Perhaps OneLight will answer and tell us IF He is expecting Jesus tomorrow (or even tonight) or is he expecting that he will see other things first? OneLight, can you tell us?

Last Daze, how about you? Are you expecting that He could come tonight?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Precisely.  And Jesus adds in John 6 that the resurrection of those who are His takes place on the last day.

So, the rapture takes place at the last trumpet (trumpet of God) on the last day.  Really don't see anything "pre" about it.

It's very simple: just how you look at it: the prophecy for the "last day" is for those to whom Jesus was speaking: Old Testament saints: THEY get caught up on the last day - at the 7th vial that ends the week.

Next, Paul's "last trump" is of a different series than the 7 trumpets of Revelation. Without a doubt, Paul's last trump will be the last trump of the age of grace, or the church age (the next moment will be the Day of the Lord) and the final, long trumpet blast of the feast of trumpets.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Next, Paul's "last trump" is of a different series than the 7 trumpets of Revelation. Without a doubt, Paul's last trump will be the last trump of the age of grace, or the church age (the next moment will be the Day of the Lord) and the final, long trumpet blast of the feast of trumpets.

The problem I find when trying to determine which trumpet it is derives from the assumption that I fully understand all scripture surrounding this prophesy.  Since nobody has a perfect understanding about prophecy, for me to make a statement in a finalized fashion is not wise.

Edited October 25, 2019 by OneLight
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[Gentle-Warrior]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 4:¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

^5:1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Notice here that Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his famous rapture verse. Why would Paul do that. Further, he said that "the Day" would come "as a thief." Yet, there is another scripture that Christ comes "as a thief."  Why would Paul write that? 

The answer is very simple, the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the DAy of the Lord. The moment after the rapture, it is be DAY OF THE LORD. The DAY will come as a thief because HE will come as a thief for the rapture - which will take very little time, and the Day will come - SUDDENLY  - and with no warning.  Paul goes on:

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now we have more information: the rapture / Day of the Lord, will come at a time people are saying "peace and safety." ... perhaps a day just like today.  But the DAY will start with "sudden destruction."

What is Paul's "sudden Destruction" that comes a moment after the rapture and starts the Day of the Lord? Paul goes on:

 

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Here Paul is giving us a paradigm: a comparison of two things brought right up in front of us so we can easily see it: Paul tells us those living "In Christ" will get "salvation" or be caught up. But at the same moment in time, those left behind will be "sudden destruction.

 

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (so shall we ever be with the Lord.)

Notice, those who are living "in Christ" are NOT appointed to wrath, but this coin has a flip side: those NOT living "in Christ" ARE appointed to wrath - that is the sudden destruction. 

What then IS this "sudden destruction."  Notice, when God raises the dead, there seems to be a  corresponding earthquake. In Matthew 27 he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." There will be an earthquake when God raises the two witnesses. I am convinced, when God raises the dead in Christ, it is going to cause a great earthquake, but since the dead in Christ are the world around, it is going to be the first worldwide earthquake. And, it will be Paul's Sudden destruction. Several people who have had dreams/visions of the rapture tell that the ground began to shake just as they were caught up. 

If we look in Revelation, where do we find the first big earthquake? That would be at the 6th seal and at the start of the Day of the Lord. Wow! That is just what Paul wrote!

If we back up to the 5th seal, for the martyrs of the church age, they are told they must wait a long time, unto all those who will be killed as they were - as church age martyrs - so until the final number is complete. THEN judgment will come. 

What does John write next? Of course the 6th seal when the judgment does begin! Therefore, according to Paul and John, the rapture MUST come between the 5th and 6th seals. And the great earthquake of the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising - and it will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

Paul DOES give us the timing of the rapture: it will come a moment before the Day of the Lord begins.

What is your understanding of the "rapture" and where does the word appear in the scriptures? 

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

What is your understanding of the "rapture" and where does the word appear in the scriptures?

Simple, 1 Thes. 4:17: those in Christ will be caught up. Then John 14: We will be escorted to heaven where Jesus has made homes for us. We will wait out the 70th week of Daniel in heaven, enjoy the marriage and supper, then join Jesus on white horse to return to earth for Armageddon.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, missmuffet said:

No, date setting or trying to determine when the rapture is going to happen is not biblical. It is going to happen in God's perfect timing. 

There is certainly nothing wrong with trying to understand the scriptures. I would be the last person to ever set a date.

Edited October 26, 2019 by iamlamad