THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[Steve_S]

8 hours ago, Roar said:

I have answered you just as Jesus answered the Pharisees of His time on His terms not theirs.

Removed from thread.

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 3:41 AM, maryjayne said:

There is nothing wrong with my ways of posting. Nothing.

And if my summaries of previous scriptural content bother you, that's not my problem.

Hi there!

Well, if you ever find any Scriptures to support your position (in light of my Biblical critique), then let me know!

Here's the link, in case you forgot: 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:23 AM, Wayne222 said:

He does not command torah for the new covenant in christ. He commands us to believe in jesus and love one another. 

OOPS!  ALL the TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes directly into the NEW Covenant (cited at Heb.8:10;10:16).

And to BELIEVE is to OBEY...obey what?  ALL Torah! (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

And HOW should we love?  By obeying (Mt.22:37) Dt. 6.  And HOW does the CONTEXT of Dt. 6 confirm we should love?  By obeying ALL Torah (Dt. 6:5,25).

Again, John requires ALL Torah (1Jn.5:3)

Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

blessings...

 

[Wayne222]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

OOPS!  ALL the TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33) passes directly into the NEW Covenant (cited at Heb.8:10;10:16).

And to BELIEVE is to OBEY...obey what?  ALL Torah! (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

And HOW should we love?  By obeying (Mt.22:37) Dt. 6.  And HOW does the CONTEXT of Dt. 6 confirm we should love?  By obeying ALL Torah (Dt. 6:5,25).

Again, John requires ALL Torah (1Jn.5:3)

Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

blessings...

 

Do you keep the seventh day sabbath ? From sunset Friday to sundown Saturday  ? 

[BibleGuy]

9 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Do you keep the seventh day sabbath ? From sunset Friday to sundown Saturday  ? 

Why assume the sun sets where I live?

And sure, I rest from my regular work on Sabbath....

How about you?

 

[ayin jade]

40 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Why assume the sun sets where I live?

 

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:59 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Let’s get to the heart of the matter.......I kinda feel like we are spinning our wheels here .....Plus, I am doing you a disservice - I’m not really reading your stuff anymore, so let’s simplify things....Does  obedience to the Torah play a part in Salvation or in maintaining Salvation. Please answer yes or no. I will go first with a resounding “ NO.”

 

Of COURSE ONLY THE BLOOD cleanses us from all sin (1Jn.1:7), not our works, but ONLY THE BLOOD.

But if you disobey Torah, then what did JESUS say can happen? (Mt. 5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

That's a REALLY good reason to obey!

After all, Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

AND, even Blood Bought 1953 agrees it's good and wise to obey Torah!

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:17 PM, Alive said:

In my view--if you are saved you are saved.
What pushing the law and legalism does is confuse the saved and is a barrier to entering His rest and enjoying the inheritance of sons.
Trying to keep 'law' won't unsafe you, but will make life more difficult than needs be.
All that talk of the beauty of Torah and such is wonderful as the psalmist said--'Sweeter than honey', but in terms of our walking with the Lord in this Church Age, the Lord has moved on from there to a different place. Everything since Pentecost moves on from the physical to the spiritual. From the types and the tutor to the real and the new heart of flesh via a New Nature. I died and yet I live.
The law is beautiful as is the psalms and prophets and there is much to learn there-- in that every bit of it speaks of 'now' and moving on to a very different footing.


to add for clarity:

He rescued us from being bound to the principle agency of 'law' and death to the principle agency of Grace and Life.
They are as different as life is from death.

Maybe so--maybe not. That wasn't my impression across several threads.
At any rate--it is still error because it leads away from what the Father has for us now In Christ.
To place so much emphasis there is at best to sow confusion.
Mature Christians recognize it for what it is. It is referred to as discernment.

 We are commanded to love one another and to believe in the name of jesus. 

Right! And those are commandments.
Most everything else is admonitions and guidance regarding 'how to' continue to enter into the benefits and economy of sonship. This is all for His Glory and for our benefit in this earthly existence and beyond. A Father wants His sons to grow up into who he is.
Pretty simple.
 
I like another illustration regarding nature and sonship.
I have 4 children. There is nothing in my son, but me (and of course his mother). There is nothing in him that didn't come from me. He is nothing but me.
When we died and were raised in Christ we were given a new Nature and that Nature is Christ--Divine. Its true we currently have this treasure in an earthen vessel, but the vessel doesn't change the Nature of the Life.
There is nothing in me (my new nature) that isn't God. That isn't Christ.
He wants us to 'grow into' our Nature, just as my son grows into his. This is one job of the Paraclete. To always point and inform and shed light on that Nature.

These are the things I am portraying here----the emphasis should be on the New as informed by the types and tutor.

I am speaking of Life.

Another point can be made that might be helpful.

In this new economy of Christ, we are to look inwardly not outwardly. His Life is in us and pulls us toward Him in the heavenlies.  The Law is outside and pulls us earthward.

Hi there!

"but in terms of our walking with the Lord in this Church Age, the Lord has moved on from there to a different place. "

There is no "church age".

CHURCH = ISRAEL....(Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10).

And we ISRAELITES obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:44 PM, Roar said:

Yes or No. I answered your question! I am glad to get you on the record on this thread.

 OldCoot said:

The problem I see with some folks is viewing Torah as a rigid set of commandments, like say, the speed limit laws.   Torah has its root in yara, which is more close to "teaching" or instruction.   And when it comes to the commandments, there are 613.  Not all of them apply to everyone.

Torah is guidance and instruction.  And within it, it teaches us of the Messiah, just as He said.... the Torah is written of Him.  One can see that applied even in what Yeshua (Jesus) said when on the cross.  He applied the Torah to each and every one of us.

When Yeshua on the cross said "Father forgive them for they know to what they do", He was referring to Numbers 35.  If a person is guilty of murder, he is executed by the next of kin, the avenger of blood.  But If that person is guilty of unintended murder, what we would call manslaughter, he could flee to a city of refuge and be protected from the avenger of blood.  He would remain there until the death of the high priest and was free to go.

Though we are all guilty of the murder of Yeshua because of our sin, He declared the we are only guilty of manslaughter in that we didn't know what we were doing..... it was unintentional.  Therefore to be protected from the Avenger of Blood (the Father) we flee to our city of refuge (the Messiah) and we are forever protected from the wrath of the Father.  Yeshua is our High Priest and never will die again, so we are forever protected.  

This is how the Torah should be viewed.  It teaches us of the Messiah.  The Torah is freedom when properly applied.  When improperly applied, it becomes a weight on our backs that will crush us.  This is why Peter at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15,  and James later affirmed,  said what he did regarding the Torah.  That putting a set of rigid commandments on people is a burden that even they and their ancestors could not bear.  They understood the difference between the Torah being instruction and guidance, teaching of the Messiah, and a rigid set of commandments that gets twisted into a burden on people.

It is why David could extol the Torah and talk about how he delighted in the Torah.  How the Torah is greater than gold or silver.  He didn't see it as rigid set of rules like government regulations....  LAW.  He saw it as guidance and instruction of a loving God.   But some still see the Torah as a set of rigid conditions.

Hi!

"there are 613."

No.  Dt. 4:15 did not make the list.  So 613 is SURELY the wrong number!

" He applied the Torah to each and every one of us."

GREAT reason for us to obey Torah!

"That putting a set of rigid commandments on people is a burden that even they and their ancestors could not bear."

WRONG.  Acts 15 oppose TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of Gentile salvation.  That's an ANTI-TORAH requirement!

Torah does NOT require TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of Gentile salvation.

Thus, the Torah-obedient apostles OPPOSED TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of Gentile salvation....because Torah does not even require it!

But the Apostles DO require all Torah (Ac.6:10-15;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;1Pe.1:16;Mt.23:34;Lk.6:40;1Jn.2:6).

"difference between the Torah being instruction and guidance, teaching of the Messiah, and a rigid set of commandments that gets twisted into a burden on people."

No difference!  Either you should OBEY or you should NOT OBEY.  And we should obey!

Of COURSE the commands are rigid....they are not flexible or subject to negotiation!  DO NOT MURDER (or LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, or any other command) is RIGID and REQUIRED.

COMMANDMENTS!  (not recommendations!)

 

"He saw it as guidance and instruction of a loving God.   But some still see the Torah as a set of rigid conditions."

It's both.

GUIDANCE. INSTRUCTION. RIGID REQUIREMENTS.

ALL of the above.

As an expression of our love (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 1:29 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Then why can’t he answer with a simple yes or no right now? He has answered by his failure to do so .Any non-Legalist could answer the question easily, as I did— NO, the Torah plays NO PART in saving anybody or keeping anybody saved. He had  several chances to respond with a simple yes or no. He declined and I am gone ....He gave me my answer without knowing it.....smart people know what’s going on.....bye and God bless... 

Hi!

"NO, the Torah plays NO PART in saving anybody or keeping anybody saved. "

Jesus IS the Torah!  So OF COURSE Torah plays a part!

Yes, ONLY THE BLOOD CLEANSES US (1Jn.1:7)….but that's the TORAH playing a part!

Jesus was NOT joking (Lk.10:25-28)….Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life.

Jesus was NOT joking....Torah-disobedience can get you LEAST (Mt.5:19), or DISINHERITED FROM THE KINGDOM (Mt.5:20)…..or CAST AWAY FROM JESUS (Mt.7:21-23)….OR FIERY DESTRUCTION (Mt.13:41-42).

Jesus was NOT JOKING.

ALL Jesus' teachings apply to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

blessings...