Trinity

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I suggest you listen to Dr. Heiser, a notable Hebraic scholar, and his Trinity Lecture. The Trinity is in the Tanakh. The apostles did not invent it as it is clearly seen in the Tanakh. (put the https:// at the beginning of the URL)

I didn't watch Dr Heiser's video; but I just finished reading "Unseen Realm" for the second time.  I didn't see where Dr. Heiser gave a definite answer on the Trinity. For example, on Page 294 of Unseen Realm he states:

"Perhaps we should instead ask, is the Spirit Jesus in some way? The question sounds odd, but it's akin to asking if the man Jesus is God in some way. The answer, as we have seen in previous chapters is that Jesus is the second Yahweh, the embodied Yahweh of the Old Testament.  But Jesus is not the "Father "Yahweh. He therefore is but isn't Yahweh. It's the same  with the Spirit. The Spirit is Yahweh, and so he is Jesus as well, but not incarnate or embodied.  The Spirit is but isn't jesus, just as Jesus is but isn't Yahweh the Father.The same sort of "two Yahwehs" idea from the Old Testament is found in the New testament with respect to Jesus and the Spirit.  That is the source of trinitarian theology. Viewed against this backdrop, the idea that Jesus and the Spirit might be identified with each other isn't so strange."

[HAZARD]

The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in John.16:13.

 

John 16:13, Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE will guide you into all truth: for HE shall not speak of HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall HE speak: and HE will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity different from both the Father, and the Son. As the Father and Jesus make this distinction  when speaking of Him. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

[Justin Adams]

9 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Holy Spirit is female.

'Wisdom' AKA the Spirit is a female noun. Typical of language. Means nothing about ontological 'gender'.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Justin Adams]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

the idea that Jesus and the Spirit might be identified with each other isn't so strange."

Agreed. Yeshua had to be back on the Throne before He could send the 'comforter' to perform the Pentecost outpouring. The Spirit is an essential non-self promoting Essence. The apostles refer to Him as the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.

Personally, since I do not understand the Godhead completely I just do not care. Doctrine matters little to me. I have been in situations where the Spirit was powerfully evident. In these circumstances He performed the Will of the Father and the Unique One, Yeshua. So essentially, trinitarianism as a 'doctrine' can never surpass the actual first-hand evidence that I have witnessed... "..a rose by any other name.."

Edited February 26, 2020 by Justin Adams

[other one]

On 2/3/2020 at 5:43 AM, Réjean said:

the Doctrine of the Trinity was man made (381 AD), any validation from the word of God that Jesus and the Apostles believed it as formulated?

that would probably depend on what you mean by formulated.    That there is a trinity, yes the Word of God shows that is true, but each of their individual beings are not necessarily the exact same thing....    They are one in purpose, thought and overall action though.   And at the present time in human existence you have to have all three of them to have any single one of them..

Also you should define what the word god means.    When we see that word (especially the capitol G one) we have a preconceived meaning of that word itself that would not be the same as the people alive when as the bible was written.

So to really have any discussion about it I would need to know exactly what your definition of the word god is so I can compare what you think the word means against what the original writers of the Bible believed.

Then I would need to know what you mean by "as formulated".

[grahampaul]

11 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Q: IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE TO BE SAVED AND NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRIUNE GOD?

 

yes i believe so.

[Resurrection Priest]

16 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

Fundamental Christianity generally teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity are one, that is, united, in one body.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut. 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means united, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 refers to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that the Word took upon Himself a flesh and bone body, becoming Jesus, and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

I John 5:7-8, V. 7, For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 

 8, And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 

If all three are witnesses, then they must be separate persons. One person cannot be three witnesses on any court on Earth or in Heaven.

The water and the blood simply confirm the intelligent testimonies of the three persons of the Godhead and give additional weight to the sonship of Jesus.

Three witnesses of the Humanity and Sonship:
1. The Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus at His water baptism (Mat. 3:13-17).
2. The water - threefold witness;
(1). Water baptism symbolizing His own death, burial, and resurrection (Mat. 3:13-170.
(2). Water of the Word bearing witness to the incarnation (Isa. 7:14;9:6-7; Mat. 1:23; Luke 1:34-35)
(3). Water and blood at the crucifixtion testifying of His humanity (John 19:34).


3. The blood, testifying not only the humanity and sonship of Jesus Christ, but guaranteeing redemption from sin (Mt. 26:28; Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:14; Col. 1:20-22; Heb. 9:14-26; 10:1-23; 1 John 1:7).

Agree to the point of the humanity and sonship of Jesus. If we receive witness of sinful men who can so easily deceive, we should gladly receive the witness of God who cannot possibly deceive. God's witness of His Son are greater than all men. Every unbeliever receives the fruit of His own rejection of God (John 3:36).

Very long post.  I've read all the verses you listed.  I don't see that the "one God" - is three coequal - coeternal - divine beings, who have all three always existed. 

I believe that the Son of God "came forth from the Father" (John 16:28).  That's a beginning.  It was "the beginning".  Jesus did call Himself "the beginning", and Jesus called Himself "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14).  No I'm NOT saying that God's Son was created.  He was the beginning of the creating work of God.  Much like a wife is "the beginning of" a man's family.  God the Father created "through" His Son.   But the place where eternity and time met, was "the beginning" of creation.  I believe that is the instant when God the Father, brought forth His unique "Son".  We can have no finite understanding of that place where "time" began. 

[Resurrection Priest]

16 hours ago, HAZARD said:

In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

Jesus said, "God IS spirit" (John 4:24).  The problem with this verse is that folks quote only verse 24, to prove the Holy Spirit IS a divine being.  They leave out verse 23 - which leads into verse 24.  There were no verse divisions in the ancient text. 

 John 4:23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.   God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth."

When you read v. 23 and v.24 together, as one statement, you see that God the Father IS the omnipresent spirit, and we worship HIM in spirit.  

Jesus said, "the Father who dwells in me, does the works."  That means "the Father" had to BE "spirit".

John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."

I see only God the Father AND Jesus here.  I see no THIRD divine being. 

So of course the Holy Spirit is also called Lord, and God - as you stated.  Because God the Father IS the Spirit that Ananias lied to. 

I don't understand why God the Father is limited just to sitting on the throne.  HE is omnipresent.  HE "through all and in all".  He sees in secret, and is "in the secret place".  He dwelt IN Jesus.  Jesus promised that BOTH He and His Father would "come in to" us, and make their home with us.  Trinitarians are quick to add that God the Father and Jesus do that "through" the Spirit.  But that's adding to the text. 

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
 

That is how we "abide in the Son and in the Father" (1John 2:24).  That is how we "have fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ" (1John 1:3).  Only TWO divine beings mentioned in these verses. 

 

 

[HAZARD]

God has a spirit body with bodily parts like a man. This is proved by hundreds of Scriptures that do not need interpretation. God is a Spirit being, infinite, eternal, immutable, self-existent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, invisible, impartial, immortal, absolutly holy, full of wisdom, full of knowledge, and just in all things. God is known in Scripture by over two hundred names. He is describes as being like any other person as to having a body, soul, and spirit (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3 ;  Dan. 7:9-14 ; 10:5-7). He is a spirit being with a body (Dan. 7:9-14 ; 10:5-6 ; 9-19 ; Exodus 24:11 ;  Ezek. 1:26-28 , Acts 7:54-59 ; Rev. 4:2-4 ; 5:1 ; 5-7 ; 22:4-5), shape (John 5:37), form (Phil. 2:5-7, same Greek word as in Mark 16:12, which refers to bodily form); and an image and likeness of a man (Gen. 1:26 ; 9:6 ; Ezek. 1:26-28 ; 1 Cor. 11:7, Jas. 3:9; Dan. 7:9-14 ; 10:5-6).

He has a heart (Gen. 6:6 ; 8:21). hands and fingers (Exod. 31:18, Psalms 8:3-6, Rev. 5:1 ;  6-7),  Nostrils (Ps. 18:8),  mouth (Num. 12:8), lips and tongue Isa. 30:27, feet (Ezek. 1:27 ; Exodus 24:10); eyes, eyelids, sight (Ps. 11:4 ;  18:24 ; 33:18) ; voice (Ps. 29 ;  Rev. 10:3-4 ; Gen. 1) ; breath (Gen. 2:7) ; ears (Ps. 18:6)  ; head, hair, face, arms (Dan. 7:9-14 ; 10:5-19 ;  Rev. 5:1 ; loins (Ezek. 1:26 ; 28; 8:1-4); bodily presence (Gen. 3:8 ;  18:1-22 ; Job 1:6-12 ; 2:1-7 ;  Exodus 24:10-11  ; and many other bodily parts as required by Him to be a person with a body.

God goes from place to place just like any one else (Gen. 3:8 ; 11:5 ;  18:1-22,  33 ; 19:24 ; 32:24-32 ; 35:13 ;  Zech. 14:5 ;  Titus 2:13). God is omnipresent but not omnibody, that is His presence can be felt everywhere but His body is not everywhere. God wears cloths (Dan. 7:9-14 ; 10:5-19 ;  God eats food (Gen. 18:1-22 ;  Exodus 24:11).

There is not one Scripture in the Bible which states that God is intangible, immaterial, without a body, or bodily parts, and passions except John 4:24, “God is a spirit,” and this certainly does not teach that He is without a body. The difference between Spirit and flesh and bone is substance.

[HAZARD]

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and
having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) sent by the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

There are three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19). 

Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

So when God said, "Let US make man in OUR IMAGE AND AFTER OUR LIKENESS," He was talking to Himself?  . . . . . Not likely.

And when Jesus WAS ON THE EARTH and He prayed to the Father IN HEAVEN, He was praying to Himself?  . . . . . Not likely.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 

Jesus spoke many times of His Father who WAS IN HEAVEN WHILE JESUS WAS ON EARTH.

Matt. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 

Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 

Matt. 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. 

Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 

Matt. 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 

And when Jesus said He was going to the Father, you believe He was going to Himself? . . . . . . Not likely.

John. 14:12, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 

And when Jesus said His Father was greater than He was, He was saying he was greater than He Himself was?  . . . . . . Not likely.

John. 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And when Jesus, now in His raised by the Father, glorified flesh and bone body is SITTING BESIDE THE FATHER, AT HIS RIGHT HAND, he is sitting beside Himself? . . . . . Not likely. 

Eph. 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 

And when Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God, he must have been dazed by too many bumps on the head from those stoning him,

Acts 7: 56, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 

  The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in John.16:13.

John 16:13, Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE will guide you into all truth: for HE shall not speak of HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall HE speak: and HE will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity different from both the Father, and the Son. As the Father and Jesus make this distinction  when speaking of Him. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

Acts 13: 2, As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, THE HOLY GHOST SAID, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto  I HAVE CALLED THEM.