2300 days

[iamlamad]

On 3/11/2020 at 8:41 PM, Sister said:

iamlamad

Many cannot conceive the thought that God can prophesy beyond the thousand year rest.  Many cannot tell the difference between the two wars. 

What does it mean to be brought back from the sword?  It means to be delivered of war.  Israel is not delivered from war until Jesus returns.  If we know our scriptures and know the truth of what is written, there is going to be a big war there in Israel before the 2nd Coming.  Jesus even told us about it.  Troops are coming into Jerusalem to kill, destroy and wreak havoc, and there are hundreds of verses throughout the scriptures referring to this in the end times tribulation.

 

  Ezekiel 38:8   After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

What does it mean that the mountains of Israel have been always waste?

It does not mean that the land has always been a physical waste but a spiritual waste.  A dry land devoid of truth, a desolation.  Not only Israel but the whole world.

Therefore these scriptures in Ezekiel refer to a time "after" Israel's rescue by Christ.  The land that is brought back from the sword (war).  A land that has been living in peace for a 1000 years.  That will not happen until after the 2nd Coming because Israel today is always at the threat of war just like any other nation, which is why they have soldiers at the check points and on the boundaries.  There will be no need for that during the 1000 years.

 

 Ezekiel 38:11   And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

  Ezekiel 38:12   To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

I think you missed the "but."  This tells us that the condition of "waste" was ended because Israel "is brought forth out of the nations. This is speaking of 1948 when Israel became a nation once again.  For the most part, Israel is dwelling safely. There is more fear in the world today about the virus than those in Israel fear for their life due to war.

Most - and again I say most - of the "experts" are divided on WHEN for Ezekiel 38: but all are agreed that it is before the 1000 year reign! Some think this war will come before the 70th week; others think it is speaking of the war of Armageddon that comes after the week. 

Therefore I am going to disagree with you. This is before the 1000 year reign. However, Rev. 20 tells us there will be (almost) war at the end of the 1000 years: But before it really happens, God will destroy the enemy. So in reality there is no war.  I think you should read the commentaries.

Edited March 13, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 3/11/2020 at 1:21 PM, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for the reply!  Once again, I have thoroughly confused why many / most contend the 2300 days does not apply to the Messiah.  God is using Daniel to write / prophesize about Him.... nothing is more important..... and although chapters 11 and 12 are far in the future (also includes times after crucifixion), there is so much information God is trying to reveal about the coming Messiah -- we keep trying to pin or match many of these very enigmatic verses to some very insignificant actors like an "Antiochus". The chapters of Daniel move from the historical to the spiritual yet we continue to try and match the spiritual interpretations to man's actors or events.  The interpretative approach must match the two very different meanings or messages it is meant to reveal. I believe everyone can agree the chapters show a transition from historical to spiritual or symbolic, yet we do not change our method of interpretation - continue to look for a man made event or actor that seems to fit the "spiritual" event.  Example: the SDA contend the 2300 days really means 2300 years and it represents a period from the start of Daniel's 70 weeks (since they can not identify any other beginning time) and then ends at or around 1844 - where there is / was a spiritual cleansing of the sanctuary.... This is a perfect example of trying to come up with a physical / historical / man's event in history with a verse in Daniel that is clearly a"spiritual one ".  In this case, the spiritual message belongs to the near future of Daniel when the Messiah will come and He will cleanse the Temple / Sanctuary.  There are so many folks that insist there will be a need for another Temple and therefore a cleansing of that Temple along with the continuation of the sacrificial system.

The Messiah has ALREADY addressed the complete sacrificial system including the need for a physical Temple / Sanctuary, sacrificing Lambs, the continuation of the Aaronic priest system, etc. HE has completed ALL the requirements of that system which were only meant to point to Him in the first place. There is only ONE capable of cleansing the Sanctuary - the Messiah! The 2300 days and evenings prophecy applies to HIM and only HIM....

Sorry for the long winded response.... Charlie 

 

Charlie, you are reading into Dan. 8 what was never intended: Daniel 8 is a prophecy concerning PHYSICAL events that would take place in the future:

Verses 1-8 is the ram and the goat - or Persia and Greece.  This is proven by:

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Next, after the goat destroyed the ram (After Alexander defeated Darius of Persia):

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

We know looking back in history that Alexander's four generals divided up the conquered area.

Verse 9: Remember, these first verses are a summary that is explained more fully later on in the chapter:

⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This is describing Antiochus Epiphanes. 

Note verse 23 explaining verse 9:

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Notice the amplified version:

⁵ As I was considering, behold, a he-goat [the king of Greece] came from the west across the face of the whole earth without touching the ground, and the goat had a conspicuous and remarkable horn between his eyes [symbolizing Alexander the Great].

⁷ [In my vision] I saw him come close to the ram [Medo-Persia], and he was moved with anger against him and he [Alexander the Great] struck the ram and broke his two horns; and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but the goat threw him to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power.

⁸ And the he-goat [Alexander the Great] magnified himself exceedingly, and when he was [young and] strong, the ^[a]great horn [he] was [suddenly] broken; and instead of [him] there came up four notable horns [to whom the kingdom was divided, one] toward [each of] the four winds of the heavens.

⁹ Out of littleness and small beginnings one of them came forth [Antiochus Epiphanes], a ^[b]horn whose [impious presumption and pride] grew exceedingly great toward the south and toward the east and toward the ornament [the precious, blessed land of Israel].

This entire chapter is about Medpo_Persia, and Greece, and then near the end of the Grecian reign when Antiochus came into power.

IN CONTEXT then, the 2300 days would be about Antiochus. 

Sorry, but the 7th day people have gone far from the intent of the Author here and many other places. 

As for a future temple, it will be the JEWS that build a new temple - the temple John will be told to measure and that will have worshipers in it - and will be the very same temple the man of sin will enter. Remember, the Jews are ignorant of the first coming of their Messiah.

Edited March 13, 2020 by iamlamad

[Charlie744]

18 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi douggg

Ok.  I understand. 

We've probably derailed this thread long enough.  It's supposed to be about the 2300 days which Daniel spoke of in chapter 8. It would be good to go back to that subject. 

 

Sorry Charlie744.  I am still waiting for us to have some good dialogue together.  I noticed you answered but your answer was in general to everyone, and not to me.  I was wondering if you saw that Jeremiah chapter 25 was referring to the last days?  I would like to talk about this chapter because I believe it holds the key to the 2300 days prophecy.

 

 

Sister, first let me apologize -- I am not sure of the process that takes place when I hit "quote" v. "reply" or what ever I happened to hit when I respond - sorry for that confusion on my part.  Consequently, before I address you question re: Jeremiah 25, would you be so kind as to :

1) If I want to respond to a comment from anyone, AND I would like others to also receive that response - say dougg as well, would you please inform me just how to do that?  I would rather want to have those that might be directly involved in the discussion receive it as apposed to going to a "general" posting and they might not be aware of its being sent - thank you in advance!!!

Now, I have read Jeremiah 25 and thank you for that reference.  My only response regarding your mentioning it is that I do not believe the 2300 days refers to the "end of times" but to the Messiah Himself. In no way do I believe that there will NOT be such tremendous turmoil and horror "at the end of days", but this (2300 days) relates directly to the coming Messiah and how He will cleanse the sanctuary.  He must fulfill His mission  - those things He must do at His first coming.  He indeed will eliminate the sacrificial system and ALL its purposes and meanings (which were all meant to point to Him). The physical Temple, the sacrifices, the cleansing have all been fulfilled by Him. No need to continue with any of the old system. No more Jew, Greek, etc., that distinguish or separates mankind from the One True God. The Jews were given such  a wonderful task of bringing / revealing the One True God to mankind - symbolically the first 3 kingdoms of the metal man image. He has shown us that, regardless of the naming of the king or kingdom in place, mankind will destroy each  other  -  as long as there is no relationship, obeyance, worship of Him (we would and certainly have repeated the same horrible treatments towards our fellow man whether it is Babylon, Greece, Rome, England, France, Spain, Russia, China, etc. - nothing will ever change unless and until we follow HIM). So He has already given us His thoughts on this - He does not have to continue and list all the many different powers that will come on the earth to get His point across - the only thing that would change is their names. He does not have to go beyond identifying the 3 kingdoms of the metal man image - but what He does have to do is to reveal the coming of the Messiah WITHIN the fourth kingdom. This is the reason for the information / differences He reveals for the 4th kingdom.  There are so many ways He reveals that the 4th kingdom must not be viewed in a similar manner of the first 3 - they are purely at man's level and man's typical and never changing ways.  But the 4th kingdom is where everything changes - it is because He is revealing His message of the Messiah and His Plan of Salvation. There will always be wars and killings by man - to this day and it will never stop. But He is revealing to us His Plan which is the only battle or war we need to win - we must recognize Jesus as the Messiah who would save us from destruction - not a physical one but a spiritual one. This is the war that will continue until His second coming.  Consequently, it would / must make complete sense for us to FIRST see Him in His first coming.  He would certainly want to ensure we see and know HIM at His first coming  - so we can follow Him.  

The first 3 kingdoms are easily identified but the 4th kingdom causes some controversy.  It certainly would have been easy for God to  simply identify the 4th king or kingdom by name and identify every single "he" or "him" or "they" or "KOS, or "KON" recorded in any one of Daniel's remaining chapters (especially chapter 11), but He did not do that.  He wants us to see and find HIM in HIS prophecies - He is not interested in giving us another history lesson on the 4th kingdom - no purpose it that - He has better things to do!

There is no 4th king mentioned nor is there a 4th kingdom mentioned in chapter 8 - there is and can be only ONE King and Kingdom after the first 3 - the Only King is Jesus Himself and the Only Kingdom is His kingdom. Jesus and His Kingdom has indeed come but it is not a physical one. Chapter 8 identifies the first 3 kingdoms (which are in line with chapter 2 and 7), but in chapter 8 the "little horn" is immediately mentioned after Alexander (the 3rd king). Chapter 2, 7 and now 8 are only interested in kings and kingdoms, not some relatively nobody like an Antiochus or any one of the 4 generals after Alexander - they  are not important. But because we (man)  seem to only be able to view these verses at "man's" level (try to match or pin these verses to some actor (s) or conflicts that may indeed seem to fit, we reduce His prophecies, which are about Him, to just another comparison to a character in one of our history books.  If we might begin to see the transition from the purely historical / physical to the spiritual (His first coming and what would take place for the next 2000 years), and see if we see HIM.... we might find His prophetic message in the latter parts of Daniel. And  once we might find our interpretations speak of Him in Daniel's 4th kingdom, we will be able to apply THESE interpretations to the Book of Revelation.  The Book of Revelation has been seriously poisoned by the misinterpretations of Daniel. If we compare today's interpretations of Revelation with these new interpretations of Daniel (sorry for this but I mean those I believe I see and find that are spiritual and not historical), there is NO way they will work together - but they shouldn't! What I am attempting to do is to try and interpret Daniel WITHOUT any knowledge of what others (2000 years) have decided the verses in Revelation mean.  I do not want to try and fit their Revelation interpretations to Daniel's remaining verses of the 4th kingdom. Certainly, Daniel and Revelation MUST FIT LIKE A GLOVE, but I want to determine the HAND FIRST. I am attempting to interpret Daniel - 4th kingdom as though there messages MUST reveal the Messiah and His Plan... and not just another couple of chapters about some ruler or ruling empire that continues to hurt mankind....His message is so much above that (post 3rd kingdom). 

So, many have corrupted His prophecies (just my opinion) to keep the focus of the "bad actors - "little  horn", off of them.  They have been so, so successful in telling the world that the "he" in 9:27 is some maniacal antichrist that will come in the far, far future (gap theory which is attached to this totally unsupported / horrible thought) and establish a 7 year treaty with Israel.  All of this is nonsense! There are no longer Jews and Greeks, God sees mankind as ONE -- because many or the Jews did not accept the Messiah, they indeed will "think" they should once again build a 3rd Temple and revived the sacrificial system, etc. (that makes total sense to THEM, but they would NEVER think that if they had accepted Jesus as their Messiah - He had fulfilled ALL parts of that system). 

So from post Alexander (chapter 8) God reveals to us the "little horn" because this is the one He will be battling. He is the one who comes out of the beast (chapter 7) and attempts to not only be a king but god on earth and where he corrupts the Word of God. Chapter 9 is all about the covenant of God and what He will do to fulfill His mission at His first coming. And although I am having such a difficult time with chapter 11, I can see the focus must be on the; Messiah and the Word of God, the transition from pagan Rome to the power taken by the "little horn - papacy", the corruption of His Word by the "little horn" and all the things he will do (..he will do that which his fathers, fathers did not do... change the Word of God and have man worship him on earth and not Jesus, etc.).  This is the last battle of God v.  the "little horn" with mankind in the middle (it does not matter who is in power, US, China, Russia, etc. mankind will always been in battle with each other but God is concerned with a much larger concern - the battle for our souls). The "little horn" of chapter 8 is being exploded and enlarged for our understanding in chapters 11 and 12. Unfortunately, we have attempted to match these verses to some meaningless characters like  Antiochus or one of the other generals (Ptolemies, etc.). 

Now, since you are much more knowledgeable than myself on the scriptures, perhaps you might be willing to "slowly walk" with me in my attempt to interpret Daniel 11?  For example - one verse at at time and see if this might interest you in some way :  

Verse 5: the KOS is God's truth or His Word which is being honored and kept by the Jews at that time - in other words, the "Scriptures" were strong and kept by the Jews. And one of his princes is / will refer to the Messiah (He is the One who will have a"great dominion").

Verse 6: At the end of years (this could refer to the end of the 70 weeks when the Messiah arrives). they shall join themselves together (this might mean 

that the Messiah (the Prince) will join together with His Word (and the Word became flesh).   And the "daughter of the KOS shall come to the KON to make an agreement...."  The "daughter of KOS" would be the offspring of the Jewish faith that accepted the Messiah - this would be His church that would be commissioned to spread the gospel to the world (pagan world or KON). 

But "she shall not retain the strength of her arm, neither shall he stand, nor his arm.......she shall be given up ...." This might speak about the early attempts to spread Christianity only to have many kill them and reject this new God...

This is the approach I am taking with chapter 11 -- as mentioned above, chapter 11 must speak about the Messiah and His Word, the spreading of the gospel, the efforts of Satan to destroy it  and those who might receive it and then the "little horn" who would gain power (not by might or battle but by flatteries), and become the most influential and destructive force against His commandments and His Words  - until the end of days!

Sister, so sorry for this long response but I could not stop once I got started... More importantly, I would absolutely love your assistance (should you find an interest) in helping me take Daniel 11 one verse at a time using this approach.  I am now going to move on to answer dougg's response to me regarding the 2300 days .... if possible can you please send him a copy of this response so he might also consider helping me with Daniel 11 (if he is interested)?

 

Thank you so much and I look forward to hearing from you.... best wishes always, Charlie 

 

Sister, forgive me but the individual which responded is / was not dougg but IAMLAMED - would  you please forward this to him?  Thank you!

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Charlie744
Additional information left out of response.

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Charlie, you are reading into Dan. 8 what was never intended: Daniel 8 is a prophecy concerning PHYSICAL events that would take place in the future:

Verses 1-8 is the ram and the goat - or Persia and Greece.  This is proven by:

²⁰ The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

²¹ And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Next, after the goat destroyed the ram (After Alexander defeated Darius of Persia):

²² Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

We know looking back in history that Alexander's four generals divided up the conquered area.

Verse 9: Remember, these first verses are a summary that is explained more fully later on in the chapter:

⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This is describing Antiochus Epiphanes. 

Note verse 23 explaining verse 9:

²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Notice the amplified version:

⁵ As I was considering, behold, a he-goat [the king of Greece] came from the west across the face of the whole earth without touching the ground, and the goat had a conspicuous and remarkable horn between his eyes [symbolizing Alexander the Great].

⁷ [In my vision] I saw him come close to the ram [Medo-Persia], and he was moved with anger against him and he [Alexander the Great] struck the ram and broke his two horns; and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but the goat threw him to the ground and trampled on him. And there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power.

⁸ And the he-goat [Alexander the Great] magnified himself exceedingly, and when he was [young and] strong, the ^[a]great horn [he] was [suddenly] broken; and instead of [him] there came up four notable horns [to whom the kingdom was divided, one] toward [each of] the four winds of the heavens.

⁹ Out of littleness and small beginnings one of them came forth [Antiochus Epiphanes], a ^[b]horn whose [impious presumption and pride] grew exceedingly great toward the south and toward the east and toward the ornament [the precious, blessed land of Israel].

This entire chapter is about Medpo_Persia, and Greece, and then near the end of the Grecian reign when Antiochus came into power.

IN CONTEXT then, the 2300 days would be about Antiochus. 

Sorry, but the 7th day people have gone far from the intent of the Author here and many other places. 

As for a future temple, it will be the JEWS that build a new temple - the temple John will be told to measure and that will have worshipers in it - and will be the very same temple the man of sin will enter. Remember, the Jews are ignorant of the first coming of their Messiah.

Iamlamad, very kind of you to respond and I certainly agree  with MOST of your comments!  Rather than rewrite my thoughts on this, I would kindly request that you might read my latest response to "sister" - about 5 minutes ago.  It should answer / respond to some of your comments - especially the ones regarding Antiochus.  As mentioned  in my response to Sister, there is no question the Jews desire to revive the Sacrificial system,  rebuild the Temple, etc. but that is ONLY because they failed to accept Jesus as the Messiah..... They could build all the buildings they want, they could kill  all the lambs they think are necessary to take away their sin, this is ALL because they have rejected their Messiah. Consequently, it is a significant mistake to incorporate their misguided desires to rebuild a 3rd Temple or restore the sacrificial system into the Book of Revelation or Daniel - the Messiah would arrive to eliminate that system and establish a NEW COVENANT with them - God is no longer concerned with the physical buildings, etc., and there is no reason for any further prophecies or verses to them AFTER HIS FIRST COMING.  

Anyway, if you are willing to read my response to Sister and would not mind offering your knowledge and abilities to help me interpret Daniel 11 using my approach (non - historical) and on a slow verse by verse so we can take one bite of this huge elephant at a time... I would be honored!!!!

If not, I understand but I do thank you for your input and comments!  Best wishes always, Charlie

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Iamlamad, very kind of you to respond and I certainly agree  with MOST of your comments!  Rather than rewrite my thoughts on this, I would kindly request that you might read my latest response to "sister" - about 5 minutes ago.  It should answer / respond to some of your comments - especially the ones regarding Antiochus.  As mentioned  in my response to Sister, there is no question the Jews desire to revive the Sacrificial system,  rebuild the Temple, etc. but that is ONLY because they failed to accept Jesus as the Messiah..... They could build all the buildings they want, they could kill  all the lambs they think are necessary to take away their sin, this is ALL because they have rejected their Messiah. Consequently, it is a significant mistake to incorporate their misguided desires to rebuild a 3rd Temple or restore the sacrificial system into the Book of Revelation or Daniel - the Messiah would arrive to eliminate that system and establish a NEW COVENANT with them - God is no longer concerned with the physical buildings, etc., and there is no reason for any further prophecies or verses to them AFTER HIS FIRST COMING.  

Anyway, if you are willing to read my response to Sister and would not mind offering your knowledge and abilities to help me interpret Daniel 11 using my approach (non - historical) and on a slow verse by verse so we can take one bite of this huge elephant at a time... I would be honored!!!!

If not, I understand but I do thank you for your input and comments!  Best wishes always, Charlie

Please inform us how you can possibly relate the 2300 days from an entire chapter on ancient Persia and Greece to the Messiah. I really want to see how you do this.  There must be some hint in chapter 8 that points you to the future, when all I see is history.

Next, Revelation is a book of prophecy: things that WILL BE in the future. I agree 100% that the Jews rejected their Messiah. And it is for that very reason they are going to build another temple. Did you notice that in Revelation God does not say ANYTHING about whether it is right or wrong; only that it WILL BE.  We are not incorporating this new temple into Revelation; John already did that.  All we are doing is understanding the intent of those verses. By the way, Paul kind of clinches that thought of a new temple, telling us the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare that HE is god. 

It will be impossible to comment on Daniel 11 as non-historical for most of it, probably up to verse 36 is history to us now. Perhaps you should read it in the Amplified. 

From your answer to Sister: "No need to continue with any of the old system."  We all agree there is no need; but Revelation and Paul are not speaking to need to are speaking to what will be.

 He wants us to see and find HIM in HIS prophecies - He is not interested in giving us another history lesson on the 4th kingdom - no purpose it that   I disagree. He has given us much information about this 4th kingdom. It started as Rome, for example. Each of the previous Beasts / Kingdoms were defeated by the next one, but Rome was not defeated as they were. That is why in the great image of Daniel 2, the toes still are on the 4th beast, but in the latter days of that 4th Beast. Clay and iron won't mix, just as millions of Muslims in Europe have no desire to "mix" and "melt" into the local population.

There is no 4th king mentioned nor is there a 4th kingdom mentioned in chapter 8   Again I disagree.  Well, I agree in part: God did not give names - nor are names needed: we easily recognize Alexander the Great and his defeat of Darius of Persia. We also know the names of the four Generals.  Daniel is NOT in chronological order. The 4th kingdom is seen in the image and written in chapter 7.  Chapter 8 was future to Daniel but events in chapter 7 (the 4th beast) would come after the events of chapter 8.  This is not troublesome if one understands it.  The 4th kingdom is ROME. Most commentators agree with this. Most of the church world today would agree.  

Keep in mind, the toes of the image are pointing to end times - we could say TODAY.  The 4th beast still exists. Could we say as some that the kingdom of the Antichrist Beast will be the 5th kingdom? Some people think so. I think not. The empire of the Antichrist Beast will be an extention of the Eastern leg of the forth Beast with iron legs - just my opinion. 

not some relatively nobody like an Antiochus or any one of the 4 generals after Alexander - they  are not important.  You are off on a tangent and will be proved wrong here. They were certainly important enough to be included - no matter how hard you try to imagine those verses are speaking of something else.  Antioch Epiphanes came again the Prince of princes (the preincarnate Christ) when he stopped the daily sacrifices.  He became a TYPE of the Beast to come, so he IS important - inportant enough to be included in chapter 8 and chapter 11. 

But because we (man)  seem to only be able to view these verses at "man's" level (try to match or pin these verses to some actor (s) or conflicts that may indeed seem to fit, we reduce His prophecies, which are about Him, to just another comparison to a character in one of our history books.    I TOTALLY disagree.

The Book of Revelation has been seriously poisoned by the misinterpretations of Daniel.  Again I disagree. Perhaps you just don't understand Revelation. In my thinking, Daniel and Revelation fit together like a hand in a glove.

 I am attempting to interpret Daniel - 4th kingdom as though there messages MUST reveal the Messiah and His Plan...  This is the tangent I spoke of.

 All of this is nonsense!  So sorry, but I am beginning to see your post as nonsense rather than what is generally believed by the church today. There WILL BE a 70th week in our future. It is laid out clearly from the 7th seal to the 7th vial in Revelation.

I am having such a difficult time with chapter 11  Simply because you don't see most of it as historical. Daniel takes on down the path of history from the time of the 4 generals after Alexander to very near the end of the Grecian empire: the days of Antiochus. Then, because Antiochus is a TYPE of the Antichrist Beast, Daniel jumps from history to future between two verses.  Note: it is very very difficult to find history in what is future. This is what the preterists do. It is just as difficult to find the future in history - unless history repeats itself - which is just what will happen with the Antichrist Beast: He will almost copy what Antiochus did. ha! Only he will replace the pig Antiochus sacrificed. 

 Unfortunately, we have attempted to match these verses to some meaningless characters like  Antiochus or one of the other generals (Ptolemies, etc.).   The reason is simple: it was the intent of the Author!

Sorry, cannot go any farther. 

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Please inform us how you can possibly relate the 2300 days from an entire chapter on ancient Persia and Greece to the Messiah. I really want to see how you do this.  There must be some hint in chapter 8 that points you to the future, when all I see is history.

Next, Revelation is a book of prophecy: things that WILL BE in the future. I agree 100% that the Jews rejected their Messiah. And it is for that very reason they are going to build another temple. Did you notice that in Revelation God does not say ANYTHING about whether it is right or wrong; only that it WILL BE.  We are not incorporating this new temple into Revelation; John already did that.  All we are doing is understanding the intent of those verses. By the way, Paul kind of clinches that thought of a new temple, telling us the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare that HE is god. 

It will be impossible to comment on Daniel 11 as non-historical for most of it, probably up to verse 36 is history to us now. Perhaps you should read it in the Amplified. 

From your answer to Sister: "No need to continue with any of the old system."  We all agree there is no need; but Revelation and Paul are not speaking to need to are speaking to what will be.

 He wants us to see and find HIM in HIS prophecies - He is not interested in giving us another history lesson on the 4th kingdom - no purpose it that   I disagree. He has given us much information about this 4th kingdom. It started as Rome, for example. Each of the previous Beasts / Kingdoms were defeated by the next one, but Rome was not defeated as they were. That is why in the great image of Daniel 2, the toes still are on the 4th beast, but in the latter days of that 4th Beast. Clay and iron won't mix, just as millions of Muslims in Europe have no desire to "mix" and "melt" into the local population.

There is no 4th king mentioned nor is there a 4th kingdom mentioned in chapter 8   Again I disagree.  Well, I agree in part: God did not give names - nor are names needed: we easily recognize Alexander the Great and his defeat of Darius of Persia. We also know the names of the four Generals.  Daniel is NOT in chronological order. The 4th kingdom is seen in the image and written in chapter 7.  Chapter 8 was future to Daniel but events in chapter 7 (the 4th beast) would come after the events of chapter 8.  This is not troublesome if one understands it.  The 4th kingdom is ROME. Most commentators agree with this. Most of the church world today would agree.  

Keep in mind, the toes of the image are pointing to end times - we could say TODAY.  The 4th beast still exists. Could we say as some that the kingdom of the Antichrist Beast will be the 5th kingdom? Some people think so. I think not. The empire of the Antichrist Beast will be an extention of the Eastern leg of the forth Beast with iron legs - just my opinion. 

not some relatively nobody like an Antiochus or any one of the 4 generals after Alexander - they  are not important.  You are off on a tangent and will be proved wrong here. They were certainly important enough to be included - no matter how hard you try to imagine those verses are speaking of something else.  Antioch Epiphanes came again the Prince of princes (the preincarnate Christ) when he stopped the daily sacrifices.  He became a TYPE of the Beast to come, so he IS important - inportant enough to be included in chapter 8 and chapter 11. 

But because we (man)  seem to only be able to view these verses at "man's" level (try to match or pin these verses to some actor (s) or conflicts that may indeed seem to fit, we reduce His prophecies, which are about Him, to just another comparison to a character in one of our history books.    I TOTALLY disagree.

The Book of Revelation has been seriously poisoned by the misinterpretations of Daniel.  Again I disagree. Perhaps you just don't understand Revelation. In my thinking, Daniel and Revelation fit together like a hand in a glove.

 I am attempting to interpret Daniel - 4th kingdom as though there messages MUST reveal the Messiah and His Plan...  This is the tangent I spoke of.

 All of this is nonsense!  So sorry, but I am beginning to see your post as nonsense rather than what is generally believed by the church today. There WILL BE a 70th week in our future. It is laid out clearly from the 7th seal to the 7th vial in Revelation.

I am having such a difficult time with chapter 11  Simply because you don't see most of it as historical. Daniel takes on down the path of history from the time of the 4 generals after Alexander to very near the end of the Grecian empire: the days of Antiochus. Then, because Antiochus is a TYPE of the Antichrist Beast, Daniel jumps from history to future between two verses.  Note: it is very very difficult to find history in what is future. This is what the preterists do. It is just as difficult to find the future in history - unless history repeats itself - which is just what will happen with the Antichrist Beast: He will almost copy what Antiochus did. ha! Only he will replace the pig Antiochus sacrificed. 

 Unfortunately, we have attempted to match these verses to some meaningless characters like  Antiochus or one of the other generals (Ptolemies, etc.).   The reason is simple: it was the intent of the Author!

Sorry, cannot go any farther. 

First, thank you very much for obviously taken the time and consideration in responding! I would have expected a response perhaps some time next week or so.... but again, thank you! Unfortunately, I am not able to respond to your valuable comments right now... I just don't have the time and ability to respond without some thought, especially, since it is clear to me that I have not expressed or presented myself properly... causing some confusion I am sure.

If you do not mind, I will try and address your first comment on the 2300 days. The 2300 days represent the time mentioned in 8:13 where:

.... concerning the continual burnt offering, the transgression that causes appalment, to give the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot.

and in 8:14, unto 2300 days then the sanctuary will be victorious (cleansed).

 

The 2300 evenings and mornings can only be tied to one thing - the morning and evening daily sacrifices. This will be ended by the coming Messiah when He is the perfect sacrifice. He has also come as our High Priest... and before any Passover, both the Temple and the High Priest must be cleansed (leviticus).  

High Priest - From the first day of HIS baptism by John to the day of the 7th Passover (last week in Daniels 70 week prophecy), there is a total of 2340 days (6.5 years at 360 days). This WAS TO REPRESENT THE final Passovers of Daniel's last week which the Messiah would preside over (but of course He was cut-off in the midst of the week). But He would be our High Priest. In order to serve as our  High Priest, He had to also abide by God's laws in Leviticus and before He could enter the Temple, He also had to be cleansed.  He accomplished this immediately after He was baptized and went into the desert for 40  days to be tempted by Satan. Consequently, the total # of days He was to serve as our High Priest during the last 7  Passovers would be the 2340 days less the 40 days of temptation or 2300 days.  Now He could enter the Sanctuary to perform the services as our High Priest.

Temple / Sanctuary - The very first visit Jesus made to the Temple He turned over the tables and declared it unclean - it was being used as a marketplace, etc. According to the laws of Leviticus, if the High Priest inspects the Temple prior to the Passover (not sure if this is 7 days prior), and finds it unclean, he will insist it be cleansed.  If he returns to re-inspect it and it is still found to be unclean, he will order it to be destroyed and the stones to be discarded outside the city gates. This is exactly what happened when Jesus returned to the Temple the second time - He found it unclean  and told them the Temple would be torn down but rebuilt in 3 days. The physical Temple was corrupted and must be destroyed but He was talking about Himself - He is the Temple of God that would be torn down (crucified) outside the city gates (calvary). 

When I mentioned that we might try and look at the verses that focus on the 4th kingdom, they should point us to HIS kingdom. As mentioned in my earlier post - there is absolutely NO way ANY OF MY VIEWS / INTERPRETATIONS could possibly match many  of the interpretations that have been accepted (by most) of Revelation. Also, I can not address Revelation until I complete Daniel - not the other way around. Finally, your comments are very very well stated and are certainly in agreement with most scholars, interpreters during the past 2000 years... The ONLY comment I can make is that I am a complete novice (certainly NO intellectual or theologian whatsoever), but there is no  doubt in my mind that the purpose of God having Daniel write his book is to reveal Him to us through man's kingdoms.  

If you do not mind, I know I have not answered your very important responses but I will  - hopefully tomorrow, but I will say one more thing - there can be NO GREATER TRANSGRESSION THAT CAUSES APPALMENT OR ABOMINATION OR DESOLATION ON EARTH (regardless of the time  or kingdom) than the killing  of the Messiah!!!!! Again, if we try and see HIM in these latter verses / prophecies of Daniel in the 4th kingdom, we will find HIM --- I need to focus now on 11 since it is so difficult, but with His help and maybe through very talented folks like yourself and Sister, it will be unpacked.

I will read your comments many times since they certainly are well thought out and I hope I might be able to give you some thoughts you might be willing to consider....  best wishes and thanks so much, sincerely, Charlie

 

 

                                        

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore I am going to disagree with you. This is before the 1000 year reign. However, Rev. 20 tells us there will be (almost) war at the end of the 1000 years: But before it really happens, God will destroy the enemy. So in reality there is no war. 

I am agree with this point. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

I am agree with this point. 

How nice! We seldom agree. 

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

First, thank you very much for obviously taken the time and consideration in responding! I would have expected a response perhaps some time next week or so.... but again, thank you! Unfortunately, I am not able to respond to your valuable comments right now... I just don't have the time and ability to respond without some thought, especially, since it is clear to me that I have not expressed or presented myself properly... causing some confusion I am sure.

If you do not mind, I will try and address your first comment on the 2300 days. The 2300 days represent the time mentioned in 8:13 where:

.... concerning the continual burnt offering, the transgression that causes appalment, to give the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot.

and in 8:14, unto 2300 days then the sanctuary will be victorious (cleansed).

 

The 2300 evenings and mornings can only be tied to one thing - the morning and evening daily sacrifices. This will be ended by the coming Messiah when He is the perfect sacrifice. He has also come as our High Priest... and before any Passover, both the Temple and the High Priest must be cleansed (leviticus).  

I may comment on the rest of your post later.  Your general theory that this chapter MUST be about the Messiah has gotten you in trouble.  I see now, you just ad libbed something out of nothing to point to the Messiah. 

Here is what the Author's intent was and is. When Antiochus sacrificed a pig on the altar and then set up an idol of Zeus, the temple was desecrated and had to be cleansed before any sacrifices could be continued as required by the Jewish law. When Antiochus was defeated by the Maccabees,  TIME passed. And it took time to find a red heifer and cleanse the temple. The 2300 days is very simple: from the time the temple was descrated to the time it was cleansed and the sacrifices continued, took 2300 days. 

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The simplest answer is almost always the right answer. The context of this entire chapter, contrary to your belief, is about Medo-Persia, then Greece, and finally near the end of Grecian reign, Antiochus. 

He desecrated the temple. It had to be cleansed.  Note that this was "concerning the daily sacrifice," stopped because of Antiochus' "transgression of desolation." 

 

Added later: Charlie, Antiochus Epiphanes was a HUGE thing to Israel. That put him square on God's map. When He forced them to stop their daily sacrifices, His face was then in God's face. That was a big thing to God. It is no mystery why God would show these things to Daniel many years before they would come to pass. God was warning Israel that their actions would bring this about.  If only they had repented.....

Edited March 14, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Charlier wrote: From the first day of HIS baptism by John to the day of the 7th Passover (last week in Daniels 70 week prophecy), there is a total of 2340 days (6.5 years at 360 days). This WAS TO REPRESENT THE final Passovers of Daniel's last week which the Messiah would preside over (but of course He was cut-off in the midst of the week).

Charlie, when you wish to answer a post, go to the bottom and hit "Quote," then wait for the post to fill in. 

Question, if the 70th week were already fulfilled, or any part of it already fulfilled, why then would God show the entire week to John and it be written in Revelation around 95 AD?  Where else has God used someone to write history? God proves Himself by writing prophecy - foretelling future events.  As I have said before, you are simply mistaken. If I were you, I would start over, just taking Daniel and John at their words. For example, Daniel chapter 8 is written so a fifth grader could understand it. They would not try to second guess or read between the lines and imagine what is not there and not the intent of the Author.

If you go back to Daniel 9 and start over, notice that the first 69 weeks are OVER when Jesus is cut off - but Daniel has not yet started the 70th week. In face, Daniel himself, backed by the Holy Spirit, inserted a GAP after the 69 weeks and before the 70th. Then, to make sure we understand that gap, he included the 70 AD destruction inside that gap.

Therefore, Jesus was NOT cutoff in the middle of the week. The entire 70th week is future and God will use it to end this age for the Jews.  The majority of believers in the world today know this to be truth.