The Trib Is Before the Resurrection Is Before the Rapture

[Justin Adams]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The CHURCH (the Body of Christ) - called out from Israel and the nations.

We are all Israel. No distinctions. Why persists in making strange separations?

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

We are all Israel. No distinctions. Why persists in making strange separations?

I don't understand why people do not get this. It's baffling to me. We must be Israel or we have no part in the promises of God. It seems so simple. 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`Give no offence, either to the JEWS or the GREEKS, or to the CHURCH of God, ` (1 Cor. 10: 12)

NATIONS (Greeks, as the Gentile nations were known then).

ISRAEL (Jews)  - called out ones from the Gentile Nations.

The CHURCH (the Body of Christ) - called out from Israel and the nations.

Yes. This is true in the natural world. As people congregate labels are attached. I believe the idea here is Paul defines the entire world and is it a frame of reference for his audience, not a spiritual truth. The entire context must be considered and in that vein Paul is speaking to personal conduct and deference to others, no matter who they are, and attaches convenient labels for clarity.

Why leave out this:

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

All our fathers? These are Greeks. How are the Jewish patriarchs the father of the Greeks if all are not one? And the rock from which they drank is Jesus Christ. 

So much trouble when one builds a truth from a fragment taken out of it's context.

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

So much trouble when one builds a truth from a fragment taken out of it's context.

It seems the seminaries have been busy. Not winning souls, but confusing the sheep. There is NOTHING complicated about it all. God is NOT a confusion monger. He is so far above us that if He wanted confusion, then Babel would again happen. But He is doing just the opposite. He is GATHERING and REDEEMING and NOT separating... so much for Augustine and all the bad theologians that manufacture yolks for the sheep. God is so much higher than us yet He made it all so easy to understand.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. This is true in the natural world. As people congregate labels are attached. I believe the idea here is Paul defines the entire world and is it a frame of reference for his audience, not a spiritual truth. The entire context must be considered and in that vein Paul is speaking to personal conduct and deference to others, no matter who they are, and attaches convenient labels for clarity.

Why leave out this:

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

All our fathers? These are Greeks. How are the Jewish patriarchs the father of the Greeks if all are not one? And the rock from which they drank is Jesus Christ. 

So much trouble when one builds a truth from a fragment taken out of it's context.

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

Actually, most were from the SYNAGOGUE there in Korinth, mostly JEWS, not Greeks! (See Acts 8.) This passage from 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 is directed to Paul's BROTHERS (AND SISTERS)! "Moreover, BRETHREN,..." That speaks DIRECTLY to the children of Israel dispersed there in Korinth! Therefore, when He mentions "all OUR fathers," he was talking to THEM about THEIR ancestors (as well as HIS) who left Egypt who were "under the cloud" - the pillar of fire and smoke - and who "passed through the [RED] SEA!" They were "baptised" - "immersed" - in the cloud and in the sea, the walls of which were on either side of them as they passed through! Each time that Moses struck the Rock (even though the second time he was instructed merely to SPEAK to the Rock), it provided water enough for all to drink! These same ancestors never did fully trust God; for, when they received the twelve spies who spied out the Land, they chose to believe the majority (the ten), rather than Joshua and Caleb, and refused to go into the Land at God's command! Therefore, that generation was "overthrown in the wilderness," and their children went into the Land 40 years later! The ONLY ones left of that generation were Joshua (Yhowshuwa`) and Caleb (KaaleeV) and their families!

THIS is what this passage is talking about! The Greeks who were adopted into the family were accepted under the patronage of the Messiah Yeshua` Himself, making them children of Yhudah, the Messiah's family, or JEWS! IN THAT WAY ONLY could they lay any claim to what Paul taught and offered them!

Paul made good arguments in Romans 2:

Romans 2:1-29 (KJV)

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without (outside of the) law shall also perish without (outside of the) law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) according to my gospel.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21T hou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest "a man should not steal," dost THOU steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost THOU commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost THOU commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest THOU God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision (a Jew) is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision (the Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For HE IS NOT A JEW, WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARD IN THE FLESH: 29 But HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN, BUT OF GOD.

[Revelation Man]

On 4/2/2020 at 3:32 PM, WilliamL said:

1 Thessalonians says that the Resurrection will come before the Rapture:

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we the ones living, the ones remaining until the parousia of the Lord may by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thereafter we the ones living, the ones remaining shall be seized/caught up/raptured together with them in clouds, unto a meeting of the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Daniel 12 says that the Tribulation will come before the Resurrection:

Daniel 12:1 [At the time of the end (11:40)], At that time, Michael shall stand up…and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. … 2 And many/a multitude of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake…

 

Therefore, the Tribulation will come before the Resurrection, which will come before the Rapture.

YOU ALL WILL GET IT ONE DAY, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH. 

[Last Daze]

20 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

YOU ALL WILL GET IT ONE DAY, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, IN HEAVEN OR ON EARTH. 

Sounds you're trying to convince yourself.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Diaste.

Actually, most were from the SYNAGOGUE there in Korinth, mostly JEWS, not Greeks! (See Acts 8.) This passage from 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 is directed to Paul's BROTHERS (AND SISTERS)! "Moreover, BRETHREN,..." That speaks DIRECTLY to the children of Israel dispersed there in Korinth! Therefore, when He mentions "all OUR fathers," he was talking to THEM about THEIR ancestors (as well as HIS) who left Egypt who were "under the cloud" - the pillar of fire and smoke - and who "passed through the [RED] SEA!" They were "baptised" - "immersed" - in the cloud and in the sea, the walls of which were on either side of them as they passed through! Each time that Moses struck the Rock (even though the second time he was instructed merely to SPEAK to the Rock), it provided water enough for all to drink! These same ancestors never did fully trust God; for, when they received the twelve spies who spied out the Land, they chose to believe the majority (the ten), rather than Joshua and Caleb, and refused to go into the Land at God's command! Therefore, that generation was "overthrown in the wilderness," and their children went into the Land 40 years later! The ONLY ones left of that generation were Joshua (Yhowshuwa`) and Caleb (KaaleeV) and their families!

THIS is what this passage is talking about! The Greeks who were adopted into the family were accepted under the patronage of the Messiah Yeshua` Himself, making them children of Yhudah, the Messiah's family, or JEWS! IN THAT WAY ONLY could they lay any claim to what Paul taught and offered them!

Paul made good arguments in Romans 2:

Romans 2:1-29 (KJV)

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without (outside of the) law shall also perish without (outside of the) law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) according to my gospel.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21T hou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest "a man should not steal," dost THOU steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost THOU commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost THOU commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest THOU God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision (a Jew) is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision (the Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For HE IS NOT A JEW, WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARD IN THE FLESH: 29 But HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN, BUT OF GOD.

Exactly.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Read psalm 82 and Deut 32.

Hi Justin,

Yes we are all God`s children HOWEVER each group has a different inheritance.

Have you ever thought on -

Who will be on the earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

Who will rule over the kings of the earth? (Micah 4: 1 - 3 in the millennium & beyond)

Who will be in the New Jerusalem? (Heb. 11: 16)

Who will be with the Lord in the highest realm on His throne? (Rev. 3: 21)

???????

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Justin,

Yes we are all God`s children HOWEVER each group has a different inheritance.

Have you ever thought on -

Who will be on the earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

Who will rule over the kings of the earth?

Who will be in the New Jerusalem? (Heb. 11: 16)

Who will be with the Lord in the highest realm on His throne? (Rev. 3: 21)

???????

Shalom, Marilyn C.

This, I believe, is the first and greatest challenge you face in your interpretation. 

Think this through:

Point 1: There's no ethereal place called "Heaven." The word "heaven" refers to the earth's "SKY." The Hebrew word translated "heaven" or "heavens" (which is more accurate) is the DUAL word, "shaamayim." It's "dual" because there's a DAY sky and a NIGHT sky. It most often refers to the earth's ATMOSPHERE, through which we can see the points of light called "stars" (some of which are actually planets, asteroids, meteors, etc.), the moon, and the sun! We also see the clouds and the birds within the atmosphere.

The Greek word, "ouranos," means the "sky" where the birds fly and the clouds exist. Yeshua` Himself made this point in Matthew 16:1-4.

Point 2: We don't "GO" to the fictional place called "Heaven"; we await the RESURRECTION! And, when we are resurrected, we are BODILY raised to life! Our bodies - ourSELVES - were created to live HERE on this earth (renovated). That's what the word "soul" means: Both the Hebrew word "nefesh" and the Greek word "psuchee" mean an "air-breathing creature!" The ONLY way a "soul" is eternal is if GOD raises a person (an air-breathing creature) to eternal life! (This MAY apply to those who are raised to eternal damnation, as well.)

Thus, the groups don't have that great of a "different inheritance." Some (the children of Israel) will rule and reign over the cities of Israel; some (the Gentiles) will rule and reign over the cities of other countries, and ALL will be lesser rulers or "kings" under the "KING of kings," "haMelekh malakhiym."

So, "who will be on the earth?" ALL of His servants shall be on the earth!

"Who will reign over the kings of the earth?" Yeshua` will be the King of kings in Jerusalem, Israel, and HE shall be the One who reigns over the kings of the earth initially.

"Who will be in the New Jerusalem?" Yeshua` AND His Father, God, shall be in the New Jerusalem when it LANDS UPON THE NEW EARTH, after the FIRST 1,000 YEARS of the Messiah's Reign!

See, it's important that you understand that, right now, Yeshua` is in the New Jerusalem, not to reign, but to BUILD! When He is sent back to earth by His Father, He shall return to earth to form His Kingdom and to reign over His Newly Formed Kingdom on the earth!

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house (the New Jerusalem) are many mansions (rooms): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

(That does NOT mean that He takes us back to what He was building!)

He shall reign for a thousand years, and then He shall judge at the Great White Throne Judgment. Following the Judgment, God shall renovate the earth into the New Earth, renovating the sky into the New Sky, as well, and then AFTER that, He shall bring down the New Jerusalem to the New Earth as its capital city! It will be THEN that YHWH Elohiym, Yeshua`s Father, reigns from the New Jerusalem over the earth with His subordinate kings, including the primary One being the Son of God, Yeshua` haMelekh Yisra'eel, the King of Israel, under Him!

So, "Who will be with the Lord in the highest realm on His throne?" Yeshua` shall be reigning from the highest point in the New Jerusalem with His Father, and those with Him.

You absolutely MUST understand how Revelation 22:1-5 fits with 1 Corinthians 15:20-28!

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it (the city called the New Jerusalem), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it (the New Jerusalem); and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ (the Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's (those who belong to the Messiah) at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (God the Father) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet.

{But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that He (G0d the Father) is excepted, which (who) did put all things under him (the Messiah).} 

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Messiah, the Son of God), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that (who)put all things under him (the Messiah), that God may be all in all.

Here's something for YOU to consider: God uses the NAMES OF THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL for the names of the gates in the New Jerusalem (positioned horizontally around the perimeter of the city), and He uses the NAMES OF THE 12 APOSTLES for the names of its foundations (positioned vertically through the center of the city). Thus, there is a 12 x 12 addressing system for the New Jerusalem to help pinpoint sections of this HUGE city! Doesn't that suggest that both those who call themselves the "children of Israel" and those who call themselves "Christians" or members of the "Church" shall BOTH be important in the city?

Edited April 5, 2020 by Retrobyter
to add another thought