Pre-Wrath Rapture

[RonaldBruno]

To Light,

You fail to see the difference between judgment (in Revelation 14) and the rapture/resurrection.

In verse 20 it clearly states that this harvest results in blood up to the horses bridle. And that means death. The valley of Megiddo  is 280 square miles. If you laid dead bodies side by side in that valley, you would have 550 million. Then if you consider - up to a horses bridle then that is about 4 or 5 bodies high. Due the math.

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by RonaldBruno
Details

[The Light]

33 minutes ago, RonaldBruno said:

To Light,

You fail to see the difference between judgment (in Revelation 14) and the rapture/resurrection.

In verse 20 it clearly states that this harvest results in blood up to the horses bridle. And that means death. The valley of Megiddo  is 280 square miles. If you laid dead bodies side by side in that valley, you would have 550 million. Then if you consider - up to a horses bridle then that is about 4 or 5 bodies high. Due the math.

 

I understand what you said about the Valley of Megiddo at the end of Rev 14 . And yet in Rev 14, we see the beginning of wrath.

Rev 14

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And we see the last event of wrath.

Rev 14

²⁰ And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

In Rev 16 the 1st vial is the beginning of wrath, and then we see the last event before the end of wrath.

Rev 16

¹⁶ And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Then we see when the seventh angel pours our the vial, the wrath is over.

Rev 16

¹⁷ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

In Rev 6 we see wrath is about to start. The world sees the Messiah in the clouds and knows what is to follow.

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We see the beginning of wrath with the blowing of the 1st trumpet and we see the end of wrath with the seventh trumpet

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is the gathering BEFORE the day of the Lord begins. The coming of Jesus after the cosmic signs is in Rev 6 is the gathering BEFORE the day of the Lord begins. The great multitude is the result of this gathering. The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 after the cosmic signs is the gathering BEFORE the day of the Lord begins.

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The trumpet of Rapture is not the same with the 7 trumpets of God's wrath. Because to Paul the 7 trumpets of God's wrath was not revealed yet, until it was revealed to apostle John in Patmos island around 85 CE.

Imagine if rapture takes place after the 7 trumpets of God's wrath, where God's fierce judgment will exterminate the earth and billions of people, the saints will die of catastrophies be4 the 7th trumpets sound, remember God said :

1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath.....

Here is the trump of God, the last trump, and when He sounds it:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

Just because some believers will be on earth during God's wrath doesn't mean that they will be affected by His wrath.  Haven't you read the story of the plagues in Egypt?  Have faith in God, not the "wisdom" of men.

[The Light]

15 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

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The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. It is not a trumpet blown by humans during  Feast. It is blown by an angel in heaven.

When Paul wrote about the last trump, did he write a letter explaining what it was? No. But if he did it would have to sound something like this:

And to all the brethren from Corinth that keep asking about the last trump, don't worry. In 95 AD John is going to get a Revelation about the last trump and he will tell you all about it.

We see no attempt for Paul to explain what the last trump is, as he had no need to. All the Jews knew that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is the fall fruit harvest which is why you see the grapes cast into the wrath of God. If you studied the feasts of Israel you would get an idea of what is to come. And by the way, Pentecost is an unfulfilled harvest feast, tho most think Pentecost was fulfilled when the Church received the Holy Spirit, no harvest has occurred.

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A trumpet blown during Feasts will not signal God to resurrect the living and the dead - pretty arrogant of man to think that though and quite fun. I suppose God is up there just waiting, counting, 97, 98, 99, 100 - "Good job bugle boy ... Ok, release the Kraken". 

LOL, had me laughing.

When God comes for His Church, the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. In an hour that we think not, the son of man commeth.

When God comes for the 12 tribes across the earth (not the Nation of Israel) they are told to look up, their redemption draws nigh. That day won't take them unaware.

1 Thes 5

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

When they say peace and safety, sudden destruction comes. They will say peace and safety immediately after the tribulation of those days only to be cast into the wrath of God.

Before the wrath of God starts we have the gathering. The Church is gathered from heaven where they were caught up pretrib before the seals are opened. The Church will be in heaven 7 years during the 70th week of Daniel. The 12 tribes across the earth (not the nation of Israel) will be caught up prewrath from the earth. Both return to heaven for the marriage supper.

 

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 

Just because some believers will be on earth during God's wrath doesn't mean that they will be affected by His wrath.  Haven't you read the story of the plagues in Egypt?  Have faith in God, not the "wisdom" of men.

Sorry the great multitude is taken Alive first n the souls of killed Tribulation saints  under the altar Will appear  there one by one as beheading took place in great Tribulation on earth

There is no safe place like the Hebrew in Egypt its not biblical n manmade, God Will serve wormwood coffee to the whole world including those foolish virgins left behind.

Edited April 9, 2020 by R. Hartono

[RonaldBruno]

22 hours ago, The Light said:

When Paul wrote about the last trump, did he write a letter explaining what it was? No. But if he did it would have to sound something like this:

And to all the brethren from Corinth that keep asking about the last trump, don't worry. In 95 AD John is going to get a Revelation about the last trump and he will tell you all about it.

We see no attempt for Paul to explain what the last trump is, as he had no need to. All the Jews knew that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is the fall fruit harvest which is why you see the grapes cast into the wrath of God. If you studied the feasts of Israel you would get an idea of what is to come. And by the way, Pentecost is an unfulfilled harvest feast, tho most think Pentecost was fulfilled when the Church received the Holy Spirit, no harvest has occurred.

It is not a human trumpet blown during the Feast of Trumpets. The scripture tells us that seven angels with seven trumpets blow them - HELLO!

22 hours ago, The Light said:

LOL, had me laughing.

When God comes for His Church, the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. In an hour that we think not, the son of man commeth.

When God comes for the 12 tribes across the earth (not the Nation of Israel) they are told to look up, their redemption draws nigh. That day won't take them unaware.

1 Thes 5

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

When they say peace and safety, sudden destruction comes. They will say peace and safety immediately after the tribulation of those days only to be cast into the wrath of God.

Before the wrath of God starts we have the gathering. The Church is gathered from heaven where they were caught up pretrib before the seals are opened. The Church will be in heaven 7 years during the 70th week of Daniel. The 12 tribes across the earth (not the nation of Israel) will be caught up prewrath from the earth. Both return to heaven for the marriage supper.

The Kraken part was for your entertainment.

The 144k are from the literal twelve tribes of Israel as scripture states each one individually - or are you not taking that literally and therefore symbolizing it to mean the whole church? NOPE. According to Romans 11, the Jews were blinded for our sake and in the end times, God will remove their blindness ( a remnant 1/3 of the population of  Jews who number some 15 million). These are virgin males, whom by the way should also find an equal amount of females during the Millennial Kingdom to repopulate the earth. Since Christians will be transformed, receive eternal bodies that DO NOT procreate, who then will. The millennial kingdom sees new birth.

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind... I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people... No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor and old man who shall not fulfill his days; For a child shall die 100 years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed." Isaiah 65: 17, 19, 20

So, we see this is a description of the Millennial Kingdom, since there are babies born, child and old men who die. Why, because these are a select group of people who were not raptured but protected during the GT. The first resurrection occurred and blessed are those who took place in that. The second resurrection comes after the Millennial. These people who are procreating in the Millennial Kingdom missed the first resurrection. Hence, IMHO, these are the remnant Jews spoken of in Rom. 11 who have been sealed, but not until after the resurrection/rapture, when every eye sees Him. At that moment, they believe and mourn. How they mourn for and are sorry for rejecting the Messiah they have been waiting for all along. But Jerusalem will be attacked by all nations and they will flee into the wilderness, and be protected by Jesus. What will we be doing? Not having kids, but will be priests. We will not die. 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, RonaldBruno said:

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It is not a human trumpet blown during the Feast of Trumpets. The scripture tells us that seven angels with seven trumpets blow them - HELLO!

The twelve tribes will understand that the last trump is blown on a Jewish harvest feast, the Feast of Trumpets, the fall fruit harvest.  It is likely they will have already seen that Church was raptured on the spring harvest feast of Pentecost more than 7 years before.

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The Kraken part was for your entertainment.

And you had me rolling as that expression has always been a favorite.

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The 144k are from the literal twelve tribes of Israel as scripture states each one individually - or are you not taking that literally and therefore symbolizing it to mean the whole church? NOPE.

Nope also. I believe exactly what the Word says and the Word says they are 144,000 virgins. I don't like to make up my own interpretations. I like the Word to speak for itself.

Quote

According to Romans 11, the Jews were blinded for our sake and in the end times, God will remove their blindness

When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, via the pretrib rapture of the church, blindness of the 12 tribes across the earth will be removed. But not the Jews in the nation of Israel. That part of Israel will remain blind and 1/3 of those flee and 2/3 are killed. The Jews across the earth that are not in the nation of Israel are the remnant of the woman who are gathered from the earth in the pre wrath rapture. So the coming of Jesus in Matt 24, Rev 6 and Rev 14 is the same coming. It is the gathering and NOT the second coming when Jesus returns with His armies to set up His kingdom.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth(the scattered 12 tribes) to the uttermost part of heaven (the Church).

Both the twelve tribes and the Church return to heaven for the marriage supper.

John 10

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

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So, we see this is a description of the Millennial Kingdom, since there are babies born, child and old men who die. Why, because these are a select group of people who were not raptured but protected during the GT

You should understand that there is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. The tribulation is over at the 5th seal. The 70th week is over at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, Rev 6 Matt 24, Rev 14. Then there are 1260 days of wrath.

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. The first resurrection occurred and blessed are those who took place in that. The second resurrection comes after the Millennial.

ditto

 

 

[R. Hartono]

12 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

It is not a human trumpet blown during the Feast of Trumpets. The scripture tells us that seven angels with seven trumpets blow them - HELLO!

Nobody is saying its the trumpet blown by man when rapture takes place.

Its just the trumpet of rapture is not the 7 trumpets of God's wrath blown to cause destruction to the whole world.

[Spock]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:31 PM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Though out my studies of scripture I have come to the conclusion that we will be rapture'd at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) spoken of in revelations.  (1Co 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)   I dont associate the Tribulation as God's wrath.  God's wrath is what happens after the 7th Trumpet where he pours out the vials of his wrath on the those whom worshiped the beast.  Jesus said you will have tribulation in this world (meaning tribulation comes from this evil world and is not God's wrath) (Jhn 16:33 KJV - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.)  We are promised tribulation in this world, yet we are not appointed unto God's wrath.  These are two different things.  I do believe at the 7th Trumpet we will be raptured up to meet Yahshua in the clouds of heaven where we join him in the marriage supper of the Lamb, while the vials of wrath are being poured out on those whom chose to follow the beast.  Then afterward we will return with him to rule and reign on earth.

Just curious, why don’t you believe the trumpet judgments are also God’s wrath? They sound pretty scary to me, especially the 5th and 6th trumpet.....but they all are frightening to me. 

[iamlamad]

On 4/10/2020 at 12:12 AM, R. Hartono said:

Nobody is saying its the trumpet blown by man when rapture takes place.

Its just the trumpet of rapture is not the 7 trumpets of God's wrath blown to cause destruction to the whole world.

RIGHT! Good point.