Learn a lesson from the Great Awakening ...

[steve morrow]

1 TIMOTHY 2:5  for there is one  GOD  and one mediator between  GOD  and men   THE  MAN  JESUS  CHRIST

 

1 TIMOTHY 2:8  I will therefore that men --PRAY-- everywhere lifting up holy hands without ---WRATH  AND  DOUBTING

 

1 JOHN 5:6  this is  HE  that came by water and blood even  JESUS  CHRIST  not by water only but by water and blood and it is the spirit that beareth witness because   THE  SPIRIT  IS  TRUTH 

1 JOHN 5:8  and there are three that bear witness in earth --THE  SPIRIT--AND  THE  WATER--AND  THE  BLOOD--and these three ---AGREE  IN  ONE---

 

LOVING THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

[appy]

When we humans commit an offense against each other, the offended party expects the other person to do something about the offense right?  Such as apologize.  We don't expect the offender to say in their heart..."all is well, Jesus' blood covered the sin, I don't need to apologize to the offended person.  Sure you do, that is how you deal with the offense. You don't ignore it specially if the other person tells you about it.

 

[Debp]

2 hours ago, Debp said:

There are people here who are teaching the blood of Christ only covers the sins we do before we are saved.   That is ridiculous....the blood atonement of Jesus is more than sufficient to cover all of our sins!

@appy What do you say to members here that are teaching the blood atonement only covers sins up to the point of our salvation?  

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, Debp said:

No, the above is not true.   You have misinterpreted.

There are people here who are teaching the blood of Christ only covers the sins we do before we are saved.   That is ridiculous....the blood atonement of Jesus is more than sufficient to cover all of our sins!

As one who believes in eternal security, I am appalled that some are teaching the blood of Jesus is not sufficient.

 

28 minutes ago, Debp said:

@appy What do you say to members here that are teaching the blood atonement only covers sins up to the point of our salvation?  

In you two replies to Appy, you speak of those who are teaching that the blood atonement only covers sins up to the point of salvation.  I have been in this discussion quite heavily for the past few weeks and have never heard anyone actually claim that.  I have seen many times when where someone is accused of saying that, which is proven to be untrue.  Can you show me where anyone posting here on Worthy have said such a thing?  I'd like to ask them why they believe this.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

"You don't have to clean up your life, you couldn't if you tried"  Was specifically stated by a top "grace" preacher of our times.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and Self-Control. Galatians 5:22-23.

Temperance; self control, control over ones own self, is one of the specific gifts, talents, given to us via Christ. 

The Holy Spirit is the gift, talent, given to all believers; Acts 2:38.

And they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Galatians 5:24.

 

The kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called His own servants, and delivered unto them His goods...

Then he which received the one talent came and said... I was afraid and hid thy talent in the ground....

His Lord answered and said, thou wicked and lazy servant... cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:14,24-30 

[appy]

20 hours ago, Debp said:

No, the above is not true.   You have misinterpreted.

There are people here who are teaching the blood of Christ only covers the sins we do before we are saved.   That is ridiculous....the blood atonement of Jesus is more than sufficient to cover all of our sins!

As one who believes in eternal security, I am appalled that some are teaching the blood of Jesus is not sufficient.

So what you all are telling me is when we flub up, after becoming a Christian nothing needs to be done...just go on about our merry business as if the sin never occurred because its already been covered. That it isn't appropriate to feel remorse for an offense and go to God about them when they happen.  

Please do not accuse me of not believing and trusting Jesus to save me.  You personally can not see into another person's heart and declare that they don't believe and trust God.  God has promised to get us home, and He will do as promised if we trust our lives to Him.  Interesting that King David,  addressed his sins to God in prayer each time he did them.  To this he learned that God preferred over sacrifices.  But today, I'm being told that as a Christian we don't need to go to God in prayer as King David did.  Once is enough upon becoming a Christian.  

Where there is no remorse for a wrong committed, there is no desire to not do it again,  because a person doesn't think they did anything wrong.  Since temptations are a part of life, we are susceptible to committing sins, but again, I'm told it isn't necessary to talk to God about new sins, because those were already taken care of when we are converted.

[Alive]

14 hours ago, OneLight said:

I need to interrupt here.  You do not see Jesus dealing with believers after they were saved in the letters to the seven churches?   In advance of you answering, if the answer somehow tries to indicate that they were not true believers in the first place, please explain to me how someone can lose what they never had for each incident of Jesus telling them to repent.  The only exception would be Jezebel as there is no indication that a false prophetess is saved.

I guess it all depends on where you place history on your stage of truth.  For me, I do believe history is written in such a way as to highlight major points the writer wants to make, while eliminating the minor points for the sake of the major points.  I also believe that history, not being scripture, reflects the idea of the writer only and rarely is neutral.  In other words, what is church history is not the full truth.  I don't make this claim lightly, but after years of comparing what some history says and placing it beside scripture, meaning that when history tells us what is meant in scripture, I put on my Berean glasses and go to work.

As for learning what scripture is saying, it is vitally important to allow the Holy Spirit to teach you what is true and what is not.  I hold the teaching from the Holy Spirit far above any history book for the reasons stated above.  Again, the Bereans were complimented for their not taking the words of Paul and Silas as truth until they placed it beside scripture.

May I ask why you believe the church is in such a state it is in today?  I believe one of the reasons is told to use in 2 Timothy 4:1-5 where Paul is speaking of time that will come, which I say is here now.

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.  But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

I italicized and underlined the verse I am addressing.  More and more people today want nothing more than a handout and to have to do nothing for it. This mindset is growing by leaps and bounds.  Everyone wants all the free stuff they can get without lifting a finger for it, not caring that someone else is paying for it.  Without hijacking this into a political debate, I'll just say think Socialism.   I am sure you you see it also.

This very same mindset can be seen in some theology circles today where it is taught that after salvation no sin you commit needs repentance as they will be held against you.  Salvation is a free gift from God, but they take this free gift and run it to the end of their lives to mean something it is not meant to mean.  They abuse the Mercy of God by not taking responsibility for their own actions.  Some do this to the point that they claim they never sin anymore.  They are being taught that they don't need repentance, they are just fine with whatever they do.  These had itching ears and they sought out someone who will say just what they wanted to hear, turning from the truth held in scripture - ignoring parts of scripture that disagrees with their theology.  Welcome to the church of the Laodiceans

 

@OneLightI am going to attempt to answer your questions and comments in the above post. First let me say that the Bible is a big book. I have been reading it a long time and only understand a small part of what is in it. Layer upon layer of Truth that reveals Jesus Christ. I only see as through a dark glass. Revelation has always been more of a mystery to me than any other book. Perhaps a little less of a mystery lately, but still when I read it, I wonder before the Lord--what is this all about?

Regarding the Lord speaking to the 7 churches. I believe that is just what He is doing. Speaking to the 'churches'. To me, a church is a local expression of His Body. Each assembly of believers, even today, is a localized 'expression' of Christ and that 'expression' varies with each one for many reasons. In a way, I think He sees a local church body in a different manner than He does each individual member--although the entire 'expression' is colored so to speak by the individuals that meet together there. Although Jesus mentioned and alludes to individuals in the 7 churches--in the main He is referencing the over all expression symbolized by the 'lamp stands'.

This is how I understand these verses. I have personally seen where a local expression once vital, falls away from Christ being expressed in a Living Way--for reasons like some given to the 7. This did not change the individuals' standing 'In Christ'. I am one of them. Much can be learned from the real time experience of saints and 'churches' today. Why? Because He is the same yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.

The History of the Cross. When I mentioned 'history' this is what I meant. I will paste in this bit I wrote some time ago.

I like the illustration of placing a note into a book and mailing that book here and there. Everything the book experiences the note experiences. The history of the book, is the history of the note.

We were placed 'IN CHRIST' by the Father...like the note in the book. We died in Him on the Cross, were buried, we rose and we ascended. This is history. It happened as ordained by our Father.

Everything that Christ is--we are. We cannot add to this work.

The understanding must start with this as the foundation. Everything has to be consistent with the Cross and Resurrection and Ascension.

So my dear brother @OneLight--what I believe regarding our common salvation is wrapped up in the Cross and in this thing of 'Sonship'. There is not enough life left in my keyboard to express all that is contained in the idea of Sonship. It is too big an idea.

I am convinced that this is God's 'Eternal Purpose' as referenced by Paul.

I do not presume to convince you to think as I do--all I can do is do my best to communicate.

God expressed Himself as 'I am'. To me, this means that He exists in and of Himself totally independent of anything else--in eternity past. Science refers to this as 'Ontology'. Being--existence. God had 'being' before anything was made.

I believe that the entire whole of everything relates to God desiring to 'share being'. To share existence and if I may be so bold---to reproduce. To share being in that very real and specific Way. He accomplished this through Himself in Jesus Christ--through whom and by whom all things were made and Who is the first of many brethren. This is the principle that guides my doctrinal choices. His 'Being' that I now have as my Life is eternal and much much more.

Although it does not appear what we 'shall be'---when we, the Sons of God are manifested---the Life that we even now have--is Eternal and nothing in this universe can turn that Gift around. Nothing can reverse that 'birthing'.

There is a great deal that can be explored regarding our experience of this Life while still in these old vessels. There are things that I believe that also answer many of these questions that arise in this old debate, but I have hesitated to go there on the forum. I have thought to write a bit about that number of times and even started to. Perhaps--I don't know.

[appy]

Sonshine, I'm not even going to get into that question, because like the current topic, it too; is heavily debated.  So I am not going to form any opinion on it. But I can say, that when we stand before God, it will be known who is and who is not.  God will decide.

[appy]

 

3 minutes ago, SONshine said:

I was asking Deb, actually... Yes, these debates are not worthy ones for many reasons.  I’d much rather be....

 ~ Leaning on Jesus, Lucy 

  I saw  my name in the highlighted in the quote, and replied.  Sorry about that

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

@OneLightI am going to attempt to answer your questions and comments in the above post. First let me say that the Bible is a big book. I have been reading it a long time and only understand a small part of what is in it. Layer upon layer of Truth that reveals Jesus Christ. I only see as through a dark glass. Revelation has always been more of a mystery to me than any other book. Perhaps a little less of a mystery lately, but still when I read it, I wonder before the Lord--what is this all about?

Regarding the Lord speaking to the 7 churches. I believe that is just what He is doing. Speaking to the 'churches'. To me, a church is a local expression of His Body. Each assembly of believers, even today, is a localized 'expression' of Christ and that 'expression' varies with each one for many reasons. In a way, I think He sees a local church body in a different manner than He does each individual member--although the entire 'expression' is colored so to speak by the individuals that meet together there. Although Jesus mentioned and alludes to individuals in the 7 churches--in the main He is referencing the over all expression symbolized by the 'lamp stands'.

This is how I understand these verses. I have personally seen where a local expression once vital, falls away from Christ being expressed in a Living Way--for reasons like some given to the 7. This did not change the individuals' standing 'In Christ'. I am one of them. Much can be learned from the real time experience of saints and 'churches' today. Why? Because He is the same yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.

The History of the Cross. When I mentioned 'history' this is what I meant. I will paste in this bit I wrote some time ago.

I like the illustration of placing a note into a book and mailing that book here and there. Everything the book experiences the note experiences. The history of the book, is the history of the note.

We were placed 'IN CHRIST' by the Father...like the note in the book. We died in Him on the Cross, were buried, we rose and we ascended. This is history. It happened as ordained by our Father.

Everything that Christ is--we are. We cannot add to this work.

The understanding must start with this as the foundation. Everything has to be consistent with the Cross and Resurrection and Ascension.

So my dear brother @OneLight--what I believe regarding our common salvation is wrapped up in the Cross and in this thing of 'Sonship'. There is not enough life left in my keyboard to express all that is contained in the idea of Sonship. It is too big an idea.

I am convinced that this is God's 'Eternal Purpose' as referenced by Paul.

I do not presume to convince you to think as I do--all I can do is do my best to communicate.

God expressed Himself as 'I am'. To me, this means that He exists in and of Himself totally independent of anything else--in eternity past. Science refers to this as 'Ontology'. Being--existence. God had 'being' before anything was made.

I believe that the entire whole of everything relates to God desiring to 'share being'. To share existence and if I may be so bold---to reproduce. To share being in that very real and specific Way. He accomplished this through Himself in Jesus Christ--through whom and by whom all things were made and Who is the first of many brethren. This is the principle that guides my doctrinal choices. His 'Being' that I now have as my Life is eternal and much much more.

Although it does not appear what we 'shall be'---when we, the Sons of God are manifested---the Life that we even now have--is Eternal and nothing in this universe can turn that Gift around. Nothing can reverse that 'birthing'.

There is a great deal that can be explored regarding our experience of this Life while still in these old vessels. There are things that I believe that also answer many of these questions that arise in this old debate, but I have hesitated to go there on the forum. I have thought to write a bit about that number of times and even started to. Perhaps--I don't know.

@Alive

Brother, everything you said above I agree with, but I also see something missing.  Speaking about he 7 churches, it is His desire through His love for us that nobody receives judgement, that all follow His will for them.  While Jesus is addressing the whole Body, He is speaking to us as individuals.  His warnings do not say if this person does not repent, I will judge the whole body.  This is why He tells them to repent, warning them - out of love.  Yet, there are consequences they must face if they neglect His warnings.  These consequences are the most severe a man could face. 

Some would say that through His love He will convict them to the point where they repent.  But, is that an attribute of Gods true love?  Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13 that true Godly love does not seek its own and that it bears all things.  What does this really mean if God forces someone to repent and do His will?  True love comes from the heart, not the mind. 

When we, through love, focus on Him and His will for our lives, we will fulfill all that Paul speaks of in our lives because of Him, not us.  We can never take credit for what He does.  Now, the flip side is if we turn our hearts from God and seek our own desires in life, we will not fulfill what Paul speaks of as we are no longer abiding in Him, but in ourselves.  Just as we can never take credit for what God does, we can never blame God for what we do outside of Him. 

When Paul speaks about putting the old man to death, he is speaking symbolically; that we fully ignore the desires of the flesh and seek His will for us instead.  The old man does not disappear.  It remains until we are renewed in Him.  When Paul speaks about all things become new in 2 Corinthians 5:17, he is speaking of being reconciled to God, of what happens in the process of salvation.  This new life we are to walk in, but that does not mean the old life is no more, vanished, never to be a problem again for the rest of our lives.  It means we need to continue in Him, one step at a time.  It is not until we die that our old man vanishes with the natural desire it encompasses.

As Jesus speaks about believing and abiding in Him, He is speaking of a relationship between God and us.  When our relationship with God starts to wane, we need to change and return to Him and His will for our lives.  There is no other reason why the relationship would ever wane if it were not for us walking away from the "agreement" of this relationship.  God will never dishonor His word, but we may.  This brings us back to the beginning, why Jesus warns individuals to repent, for they turned from their relationship with God.  When I hear of someone saying that a believer does not need to repent of their disobedience to God words once they are saved, my mind goes back to the first sin man made and how the same words turned Eve from obeying God.  The words of that lie that echoes in me is "You will not surely die."

As you said, the bible is one book that a person can study all of their lives and only get a glimpse of its fullness.  It's too vast and we can never fully understand God.  I see one of mans biggest mistakes is when he reads scripture and writes down what he thinks it mean, creating a theory.  When this happens, he moves away from the guidance of His Holy Spirit and begins to form his own understanding from his own opinion.