I was wrong

[Diaste]

5 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

That has nothing to do with the rapture and second coming being two separate events.

They are two separate events. One is a coming and one is a gathering so...different. But they happen in conjunction and near to and almost concurrently in time and space. You can prove there is a 7 year gap between the two? Like with scripture that says there is a 7 year gap?

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

 I thought everyone agreed that they were two different events with rapture being first.  The disagreements being when. 

I am far too sick to pursue this topic further. 

I am focusing on enduring one day at a time and focusing on the kingdom of God.  

My heart and lungs have been very badly damaged by Covid19.  Breathing is a huge challenge and heart arrhythmias very bad.  

God Bless. 

 

I emphasize with your struggles. God keep you in Jesus Christ forever.

[ENOCH2010]

2 hours ago, ChickenCoop said:

The rapture and second coming are two separate events.  The rapture is first and can happen at any moment. 

 

Yes they are two separate events but they happen at the same time. The pre-trib rapture is only a hope of the masses. The second coming is the rapture. 

[BeauJangles]

3 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

My heart and lungs have been very badly damaged by Covid19.  Breathing is a huge challenge and heart arrhythmias very bad.

There's a planet that's got much better oxygen. It's also easier on your cardio system as well. 

I'll swing by and pick you up... 

                    ChickenCoop

Seriously, brother... I'm earnestly praying for you. God bless you, my flat-earth friend. 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Who is the "he" that confirms a covenant?

The Prince that shall come?

Messiah?

Some scholars say anointed one is Onias III, not Messiah.

But "in the days of these kings" God's kingdom is set up.

I don't know about all these dates, when Stephen was stoned, there are 3 possible dates as to when the 70 weeks begin - one way early, two fairly close together, like 444 BC and a bit earlier.

Was Daniel written in Macabeean Times or during the period it presents?

In any case, there is a prophecy that fits Jesus pretty much right on the money.

What are rules of antecedents that could tell who the HE is that confirms covenant, causes sacrifices to cease?

This seems all sealed up.

I don't think the 2 witnesses have come yet - are they Mary Magdalene and Margaret Macdonald?

Elijah and Enoch as some ECF thought - two guys that never died? Are they Elijah and Moses?

The miracles fit Moses and Elijah - but some say that would mean Moses dies twice - which may be a reason ECF had Enoch and Elijah; dying twice would violate some people's interpretation of Hebrews 9:27, which I am not sure is correct anyway...

But Enoch is a gentile...

Darby and Irving?

No certainty on either the RESTRAINER or the WITNESSES.

Is the 42 month ministry of the 2 witnesses literal?

Is 1000 year reign literal?

Are Peter and Paul the 2 witnesses, as some Full Prets contend?

Who are the 4 kingdoms in Daniel?

Generally, we go with Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome...

But some Libby scholars break up Medes and Persians, leaving Greece as 4th kingdom.

Nah, I can't see anything but Rome as 4th kingdom, God's kingdom is set up spiritually in the days of 4th kingdom

I don't see a "revived Roman empire" in scripture

I don't see a "one world government" - never has been, never will be a one world government

Darby, Irving, and DeLacunza are riding around Scotland to this day in Margaret Macdonald' s convertible - a 57 Chevy with top down.

 

 

 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Dave Macpherson wanted to demonize the origins of PreTrib - painting Margaret as a demon-possessed girl, and DeLacunza as a JESUIT ( which he was, but so what? )

Has anyone READ Margaret' s vision? It's not PreTrib.

Neither is DeLacunza' s stuff - a 45-day Millennium?

Come on, man!

I don't believe in PreTrib, but the origins are NOT as Macpherson paints them. Darby had written what we know as PreTrib by 1827. Margaret' s vision was 1830, and not PreTrib.

I hope Chicken Coop gets well.

 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Margaret Macdonald just got arrested in Edinburgh ( Edinboro? ) for speeding.

Johnny, Eddy and Manny arguing in the Chevy, stopped and talked the cop out of giving Maggie a ticket.

The REAL DANIEL appeared on the scene as well, partly to prove he was not a literary figure based on Dan'El of Ugaritic literature...

I don't know if I will be eating a barbecued Red Heifer sandwich with Arby' s sauce when the rapture happens, or whether I will get run over by a truck beforehand, walking along not looking where I am going.

In any case, Jesus is coming again.

 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, ChickenCoop said:

 I thought everyone agreed that they were two different events with rapture being first.  The disagreements being when. 

I am far too sick to pursue this topic further. 

I am focusing on enduring one day at a time and focusing on the kingdom of God.  

My heart and lungs have been very badly damaged by Covid19.  Breathing is a huge challenge and heart arrhythmias very bad.  

God Bless. 

 

Shalom, ChickenCoop.

I am TRULY sorry to hear that your soul has been so damaged! You are in my prayers, as well. I hope that God will defeat this infection and its effects within you!

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Interesting stuff. In some of the reading I have done the migration didn't stop at the Caucasus nor western Asia.

 

I agree, the migration did not stop, and we know that those areas are currently heavily populated, and those individuals came from somewhere.  Considering the transportation available in the ancient world, it stands to reason that the individuals who migrated to the north would contain some with lineage to Japheth, but it would not be limited to just that lineage either.  Asia is a very large area, and considering the means of migration, one also has to account for terrain in any migration models, and what would be the most likely routes that pilgrims would have traveled. 

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Josephus is convinced Scythians are descended from Magog. If that's true then the line of Magog has spread from the Ukraine to the Pacific including Mongolia and northern China. This would lend credence to the claim Magogites settled the vast region of Russia.

 

Magog is a mystery of course, even from the table of nations in Genesis 10 we are handed a dead end.  Of the 7 sons of Japheth we are only given information as far as lineage on two of them, Gomer and Javan.  Of the remaining 5, we do have historical information that allows us to trace their original geographic locations, except for Magog.  In my opinion, it is not logical to conclude the omission of Magog having sons listed in Genesis 10 means that he did not, especially since the same is true of 4 other brothers that we can trace historically.  To me it seems more likely that Magog simply ventured much further away from the others and settled a land far enough away that there was no contact for anyone outside to record what was going on.

It is possible that he settled in what is now Russia, but it is also possible that he settled in Europe.  It is widely believed by many historians that the line of Japheth did in fact populate Europe and according to the evidence they point to this includes the entire area of southern europe reaching all the way to Spain and Portugal.  When we consider the location of the three sons of Noah and where it all began, the spread of migration becomes clearer in my opinion.

It begins at the mountains of Ararat, where the ark landed, which is located at the borders of Turkey, Russia, and Syria.  Ham was cursed remember, for seeing Noah's nakedness, and appears to be the first to depart from that location.  His line would eventually inhabit the land of Canaan and migrated westward into north Africa.  Shem and his descendants were to the east of them.  Japheth remained in the Ararat region to the north of his brothers, and we know that his descendants migrated into the area of Turkey and into the area of southern Greece.

Looking at a map given the locations where they each began, it would appear that Ham's descendants would have traveled to the west and into Africa because to the east of them was occupied by Shem, and to the north was occupied by Japheth.  Shem would have gone east and northeast because Ham was to the west, and Japheth was to the northwest.  Japheth would have gone to the west and north, and also could have moved eastward where the terrain allowed passage around the mountains.  My guess would be that Asia ended up with a combination of both Shem to the east and Japheth to the west.

Gog is a whole other issue, because outside of the half dozen or so prophecies from Ezekiel and the one mention in Revelation, the name Gog only appears one other time in scripture.  I Chronicles 5:4 we get one mention of Gog, from the line of Reuben, a son of Joel, and that is it.  Is the Gog from I Chronicles related to the Gog from Ezekiel?  There is no definitive answer on that.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm not sure there is a qualifier to 'uttermost north' limited to the Caucasus. From the Levant Turkey is north but it's not 'extreme' or 'remote' as the term for 'parts' would indicate. Even a modern map shows there is quite a bit of 'north' past the Black and Caspian Seas.

 

I agree, there is no qualifier limiting us.  Ultimately that was the point of my post to Marilyn.  I think when someone states that an identifier to end time events revolves around something as specific as a "Russian Federation" they have created a qualifier for something that is not definitive, or even likely.  Therefore, if one is expecting a Russian Federation as some key component of prophecy, and the actual federation of nations that comes is from elsewhere will they even recognize the event they are looking for?

The only thing definitive to me, is that a group of nations are going to come down from the north.  It is unwise to attempt to declare what nations those are going to be and use it as a focal point of what is going to occur on a specific timeline when it is speculative at best.  What if they come out of Europe for example?  It doesn't negate the prophecy being fulfilled, but it may very well mislead people who have convinced themselves the coalition comes from elsewhere from recognizing what has occurred.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I agree 'rosh' is a title and not a person, at least in this context, though that is disputed among some scholars they haven't proven it's more than a title.

 

I agree, and considering the scholars in question are modern (which doesn't mean they are wrong), they offer no reasoning for the sudden shift, no evidence, and no explanation as to why their translation is more reliable than all the translations that came before it.

One of the key ingredients for me in all of this comes straight from this understanding, if we compare what Ezekiel prophesied to one of the most stunning, yet overlooked passages of Revelation, I think it speaks volumes.

 

Ezekiel 38  The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.

 

Revelation 2:12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.

13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

 

According to Ezekiel, Gog is from the land of Magog, and he is the chief prince of these people we know for certain originate from Asia Minor or modern day Turkey.  The title chief prince indicates someone in a position of leadership or authority.  In John's letter to the church in Pergamum he identifies this region of Asia Minor as the dwelling place of Satan and where his throne is located.  To me it is fairly clear who is the leader in all of this, and John tells us where his seat of power is found, and it just happens to be in the same region everything else points to.  By everything else, I mean all of the different prophecies, this just scratches the surface.

 

[Diaste]

32 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

I agree, there is no qualifier limiting us.  Ultimately that was the point of my post to Marilyn.  I think when someone states that an identifier to end time events revolves around something as specific as a "Russian Federation" they have created a qualifier for something that is not definitive, or even likely.  Therefore, if one is expecting a Russian Federation as some key component of prophecy, and the actual federation of nations that comes is from elsewhere will they even recognize the event they are looking for?

The only thing definitive to me, is that a group of nations are going to come down from the north.  It is unwise to attempt to declare what nations those are going to be and use it as a focal point of what is going to occur on a specific timeline when it is speculative at best.  What if they come out of Europe for example?  It doesn't negate the prophecy being fulfilled, but it may very well mislead people who have convinced themselves the coalition comes from elsewhere from recognizing what has occurred.

When I first head about the end of the age and 2nd Coming way back in the late 70's it was all Russia, Russia, Russia. I wonder if the Cold War and the nuke race didn't have an influence on this particular part of prophecy. At the time the USSR was the perfect boogeyman and their quest for nuclear domination under an imperialistic dictatorship was indeed frightening.

I am more attuned to the list of nations immediately surrounding Israel, her ancient enemies and persecutors, which have not changed in 5000 years, and the normal interpretation of the lands and regions mentioned in scripture. I agree that beyond what is written is mere speculation. All we have is Gog of Magog and the north parts which doesn't give us much evidence for positive identification of region past perhaps Armenia and Georgia. Further out is as you say, a mix of peoples and lots of scholarly opinion.

In the end I'm betting we won't be able to miss an army on the march like a cloud to cover the land, mounted, with buckler, shield and spear. Probably shake the ground and drink the rivers dry.

I don't see this army as a lead into to anything. It looks to me like this army is on the way to meet the Lord for the final battle in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, per Ezekiel 38.

 

53 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Gog is a whole other issue, because outside of the half dozen or so prophecies from Ezekiel and the one mention in Revelation, the name Gog only appears one other time in scripture.  I Chronicles 5:4 we get one mention of Gog, from the line of Reuben, a son of Joel, and that is it.  Is the Gog from I Chronicles related to the Gog from Ezekiel?  There is no definitive answer on that.

True. I've looked into this quite a bit and we don't know who Gog is. A puppet of Satan? A symbolic figure? A groomed leader? He reappears after the Millennium so maybe a patsy possessed?

59 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

According to Ezekiel, Gog is from the land of Magog, and he is the chief prince of these people we know for certain originate from Asia Minor or modern day Turkey.  The title chief prince indicates someone in a position of leadership or authority.  In John's letter to the church in Pergamum he identifies this region of Asia Minor as the dwelling place of Satan and where his throne is located.  To me it is fairly clear who is the leader in all of this, and John tells us where his seat of power is found, and it just happens to be in the same region everything else points to.  By everything else, I mean all of the different prophecies, this just scratches the surface.

I have heard this a few times and still have not been convinced it points to Pergamum as the physical seat of power. I'm more of the mind it's symbolic of the idolatry and false gods rife in ancient Pergamum. Pergamum is a ruin today. I had hoped to find it a bustling city but all it is rocks on hill outside the city of Bergama. Maybe that doesn't mean anything according to the prophecy but I would think if Satan dwells there physically it would still exist. So my conclusion is it's where evil is practiced that Satan rules in the spirit of man.