Daughter of Women

[Charlie744]

Spock, I am sure I addressed this in within the last two pages - on page 9 of 10, and also in my response to SONshine today - page 10 of 10.

Would you be so kind as to ready posts to SONshine and yourself found in pages 9 and 10?

If you still have questions please post me ... Thank you very much, Charlie 

[Spock]

28 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Spock, I am sure I addressed this in within the last two pages - on page 9 of 10, and also in my response to SONshine today - page 10 of 10.

Would you be so kind as to ready posts to SONshine and yourself found in pages 9 and 10?

If you still have questions please post me ... Thank you very much, Charlie 

Okay, I guess this is your answer to what Daniel means when he says, “ he will confirm a covenant with the many for one SEVEN...”

This morning Spock asked me about the 7 year covenant made BY THE MESSIAH... The Messiah did NOT enter into a 7 year covenant—- why would He do such a thing? His New Covenant, as a result of His sacrifice, would be available to ALL who believed in Him! ...

Consequently, the covenant made by the Messiah during the last week of Daniel’s 70 weeks, and where He would be “cut off” in the midst of the 7 years, was purposely re-interpreted by the RCC as:

1) a 7 year covenant....

 

Back to Spock:  honestly Charlie, if this is your answer and commentary on this verse in Daniel 9, I have to be honest and say I find it wanting.  You yourself said Jesus is the “HE” of this verse, and the verse says HE confirmed a covenant for one seven and then you say Jesus would NEVER confirm a covenant for one seven because it is a lifetime covenant.  One problem Charlie.....the Bible says “HE CONFIRMED A COVENANT FOR ONE SEVEN...” 

There is a lot to find fault with the RCC, but they did not write Daniel.....God did through Daniel.  And God says THERE IS a covenant with the many for one SEVEN so unless you or someone has a better explanation For what the seven means, you just can’t ignore it and then blame the RCC for creating misinformation.  You are going to have to do better than that brother, especially In my opinion, if you are planning on writing a commentary book on Daniel. 
 

Anyhow, thanks for this thread and for your gentle humble spirit. This thread interested me because the NT, especially Revelation, never mentions 7 years...just 3.5. So I have wondered, is it possible the70th week of Daniel did begin when Christ began his ministry, and did it pause when he was cut off 3.5 years into his ministry? Did Christ begin the week by implementing the new covenant?  And when he was cut off, and then the pause, are we just looking for 3.5 years remaining to fulfill pursuant to Daniel 9?  This is the thinking and answers I am looking for. Honestly, DANIEL 11 is an afterthought for me right now. Daniel 9 is paramount for me to find peace (and wisdom). 
 

Thanks to wingnut and  Sonshine as well. You two were equally as great. Appreciate you both...glad to call all three of you my brother in Christ. 
 

later,

spock

[Charlie744]

Thank you very much Spock!

Regarding your comments about the RCC, I would respectfully request that you read my post / response to SONshine this morning- it is at the top where f page 10... 

You are correct that the RCC did NOT write Daniel, however they were responsible for the campaign in the 1500’s which completely changed the interpretations of 9:27, along with the pushing the last week of Daniel into the future (2,000 years). Another requirement relating to this “campaign” was the need to address the “cut off” phrase in the midst of the week (Daniel’s last week)... This 3.5 year phrase in 9:27 also had to be addressed since it was tied directly with the 7 year period. Consequently, it became a 3.5 year (mid-term) period where the fictional anti-Christ figure would fail to honor some 7 year covenant.

Read the post at the top of page 10...! I think it is very clear..

For almost 1500 years the consensus was that the little horn was indeed identified as the pope / papacy. The RCC did nothing write Daniel but they certainly re-wrote the interpretation for the identity of the little horn. 

Regarding the 70 weeks of Daniel... this seems (to me) to be quite easy / clear:

1) 70 weeks or 490 years in total,

2) specifically sectioned into 3 time periods, 

3) each time period in years is given and each time period has “things” that are to be completed during them,

4) the final week, or the last 7 years of the 490 years have the most important and meaningful requirements and accomplishments (by far), than the 2 previous time periods / sections,

5) the beginning or start of the last 7 years (last week), The Messiah would be baptized by John... there is now only 7 years remaining for the Messiah to complete those “6 things” identified in 9:24,

6) also DURING this last 7 year period, the Messiah, through Daniel, would predict His own crucifixion (cut off) and also tells us when it would come about- exactly 3.5 years in the last week or “in the midst of the week”, 

7) these prophecies were written for the Jews- FIRST, so they might be able to see what would take place! If you were to read the gospels and writings of Paul, you would find how he realized all of this.. but not before the crucifixion, consequently, Paul certainly did identify the Messiah in the book of Daniel... especially, chapter 9... all of 9.

8) Paul, the rest of the Apostles AND just about all scholars, interpreters of Daniel post the crucifixion accepted and understood who Daniel was speaking about...and  these interpretations did NOT change until the Reformation. As I responded to SONshine in the post at the top of page 10, if any of us would study Daniel PRIOR to the 1500’s, NO ONE would would have this alternative and grossly offensive interpretation against God ... however, this was also predicted by God ... where the little horn would corrupt His Word (chapter 11 of Daniel), and also found in NT writings.

Spock, there you have it! To me it is so clear ... everything that had to be completed / accomplished within the 70 weeks were completed... The Messiah finished His work despite our crucifying Him in the midst of the last 7 year period. However, we should note that He made sure He conveyed to us that He completed His Covenant for us and “we could still gain comfort that we could still be saved” when on the cross, He told us that “it is finished”.... despite  the fact we cut Him off before the 7 year period, He still accomplished everything needed for our salvation- those 6 things in 9:24.

Sorry Spock, I am also finished... I feel I have written these same thoughts many times over. Let me know if any of this works for you... and I certainly look forward to hearing back from you, Charlie 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

On 8/5/2020 at 11:29 PM, Charlie744 said:

In the Torah we find a few terms - Sons of God and Daughters of Men. However, in Daniel 11 there is a term (only found here) of the “Daughter of Womener ”.

ASSUMING this is NOT a term that might refer to a “ daughter “ of a ruler / a king, etc., can you folks offer some Biblical/Sriptural/Jewish interpretations for this very specific term? Look forward to your thoughts and thanks in advance!!

I remember thinking about this during the second US/Iraq War. About the time Bush was taking prisoners to Cuba. 

Anyways I thought at the time was Bush given Iraq over to a government it didn't want. Didn't take long after that, that ISIS rose in Iraq to fight the new found government. 

Oh well, it's history. I'm waiting for Trump to offer Netanyahu an army to protect Jerusalem. 

[Spock]

2 hours ago, SONshine said:

This is a needful post.  Ready? 

 

The false messiah is coming to sweep most Christians right off their feet and spiritually deceive them with his lies and deceptions and cause many (the world) to fall before him and worship him, thus taking away the daily sacrifice.

In the third and last year of the reign of king Belshazzar, Daniel saw a vision concerning the king of fierce countenance who would come with awesome power and "destroy the mighty and holy people, his people, the true house of Israel.

That understanding disturbed him (Daniel) greatly, so he began studying in his Father's Word and learned in the great Book of Jeremiah that the period of time concerning the desolations of Jerusalem was to be seventy years.

Therefore, because he so loved his nation and his people, Daniel set his face unto the LORD God to offer prayers and give supplication before Him because of the sins of his people.

And while he was yet speaking and praying he was paid a visit by one of the four archangels who stand before the Lord, and this archangel was Gabriel, whose name means "man of God.”

When those angels swing into action at the time of the latter days, including that time when the archangel Michael stands up and casts Satan and his angels out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9), then “there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time... (Dan. 12:1)."

Daniel 9:20 
And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

[21] Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

The archangel Gabriel who appeared just before the first advent also appears before the second advent and blows (heralds) the 7th Trump at Christ's return.

[22] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

[23]At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

At the instant Daniel began his prayer (back in verse 4) God heard Daniel and gave the commandment to Gabriel to go forth and give him skill and understanding.  Gabriel let Daniel know that he was greatly beloved by our Father and you can imagine how that must have made Daniel feel.  Gabriel then instructed Daniel to consider and understand the vision.

Remember that Daniel, this beloved one of God, already knows about the 70 years of captivity.

Now he's going to be given information concerning another time frame or period of 70, however, the length of this period of time will be "Seventy Sevens" or 70 weeks of years, years being the subject of Daniel's prayer.

[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The seventy weeks are determined on the people and on the holy city of Jerusalem.

In this verse, consider what happens at the end of 70 weeks, knowing that 69 weeks have passed.  That which has been determined by our Father at His appointed time is to finish the transgression, and this happens when Jesus Christ returns at the sound of the 7th Trump and puts a stop to the transgression of desolation....to make an end of sins.

This hasn't happen yet either, has it?

....to make reconciliation for iniquity.

This is the "day of vengeance" spoken of by Isaiah in the second half of Isa. 61:2.

This occurs when Christ returns to the Valley of Jehoshaphat in Joel chapter 3 to bring in everlasting righteousness.

This happens when the King of righteousness comes and sets up His kingdom that shall never be destroyed to seal up  the vision and prophecy.  To “seal up the vision and prophecy" is to make an end of or to fulfill all the prophecies that Jesus Christ foretold us of in Mat. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

The fulfilling happens in and unto the final generation of the fig tree!

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

....to anoint the most Holy (cleanse the sanctuary).

The seventy weeks continues until the end when the sanctuary is cleansed.

You may recall that the cleansing also takes place at the end of the 2300 days.

These events have not yet happened and so are yet future.  These visions and the prophecies have not all been fulfilled.

How long then is "Seventy Sevens"?

70 x 7 = 490 years, which is the total length of time of this prophecy.

Keep that in mind as we read the next verse.

[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The decree, issued by king Cyrus, to restore and rebuild Jerusalem went forth in 454 B.C., the twentieth year of Artaxerxes.

So we have 7 weeks, which is 7 x 7 or 49 years (from 454 B.C. to 405 B.C.) plus 62 weeks, which is 62 x 7 or 434 years (from 405 B.C. to 29 A.D., the crucifixion).

That gives us a total of 69 weeks, which is 69 x 7 or 483 years.

However, since the "total time" of this prophecy is 490 years, we are short one week.  That's right!  There is one week yet to be fulfilled before all the events in verse 24 are "sealed up.”

The events in the next verse happen AFTER the 483 years, which is AFTER the crucifixion.

They happen at the time of the end during Daniel's 70th week!

[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

There is a definite article in the manuscripts marking the "after threescore and two weeks" as the period of time just mentioned in verse 25, i.e. after the 483 years.

Christ was "cut off", crucified, and that was He Himself who died on the cross.

But there comes a time when He is cut off "but not for Himself", i.e. the daily sacrifice shall be cut off from the hearts and the minds of the people.

Christ was crucified and rejected and He did not usher in the kingdom for which He came but rather the kingdom became in abeyance for a period (John 1:11).

So we have a gap from the 69th week until the 70th week when Messiah is cut off.

That will be during the last week of this flesh age during the latter part of which the desolator will come and do his thing, which is to destroy wonderfully (with wonders) and destroy with peace the souls of men and women, spiritually speaking, and cause the daily sacrifice to be taken away, i.e. the Messiah to be cut off from the people.

Also, the people of the prince (little "p"), are the people (the bad figs) of the "little horn" who help spread his abominations.

The end thereof, or "his own end come", is the end of the desolator which again looks to the end of the last seven years when there shall be "a flood.” However, the flood will not be of water but rather a flood of lies and deceit which brings about the great apostasy, the great falling away, the great seduction of those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

We read in Revelation, an overview of the Book of Daniel, about this flood of lies and deception which spews forth from the mouth of the dragon, that old serpent, the little horn, the king of fierce countenance, etc. He comes after the "woman" who is symbolic of God's people, Christians who are waiting for Jesus Christ when He returns.

Rev. 12:15-16 
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

The false messiah is going to come sweep most Christians right off their feet and spiritually deceive them with his lies and deceits and cause them to fall before him and worship him... thus taking away the daily sacrifice.

"But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days (Mark 13:24)."

It is those who remain behind and endure unto the end of the desolation that shall be saved.  Here is your documentation from the voice of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:13 
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Here then is what the angel Gabriel says that the desolator, who is the little horn, the king of fierce countenance, the instead-of-Jesus, the "he" in the next verse, will do during that last week, the 70th week of Daniel which completes the 490 years.  Notice the little “h” here.

Daniel 9:27 
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This 27th verse of Daniel chapter 9 is the verse Jesus Christ referred to in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 when He said that the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet would come stand in the holy place... and as Paul declares in 2 Thes. 2, show himself (to the world) that he is God.

This abomination continues "even until the consummation, and determined shall be poured upon the desolate" which means until the very end when God pours out His wrath and puts an end to the transgression.

In summary then, we learned that the little horn shall come in the last days and "confirm the covenant with many" for that 70th week, which is to bring forth the first beast of Revelation 13 to be worshipped, and strengthen that confederacy of many peoples and nations and tongues, i.e. the New World Order.

Then in the midst of the last and 70th week, the second beast of Revelation 13:11, the desolator, Satan, appears in person with the two horns of a lamb, which means he appears as the Lamb of God, the two horns (symbolic of power) claiming to be the King of kings and Lord of lords.

He comes and stands in the holy place and causes the daily sacrifice to cease.  How?  By claiming that he is God!  By showing great signs and wonders and deceiving people through his flood of lies into worshipping him as the true Christ.

Hope this helped, sibs. 

 

 

 

I’m not so sure brother Charlie will give you a great big “AMEN” on this post, and to be honest, my thinking doesn’t COMPLETELY align with yours......but you said this so eloquently and I know a lot of people agree with you, so you deserve a thumbs up for your enthusiasm and well written post. Cheers and thanks brother, Spock 

[wingnut-]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

 Wingnut, if you don’t mind, you can chime in here too....what do you think of Charlie’s interpretation of Messiah making the covenant with the many for one week?

 

I think it has merit, but it really hinges on the interpretation of chapter 11 and whether or not there is an explanation for what we read there.  As far as chapter 9 goes, if you read that prophecy on its own merit and in the context it is written then what charlie presents is the more sensible conclusion for chapter 9, the issue arises with chapter 11.  The question you have to ask yourself is this, have you heard an explanation for chapter 11 that you completely agree with?  I don't just mean a part of it, I mean have you ever heard a complete breakdown of that chapter you agree with?

 

11 hours ago, Spock said:

When did Jesus or God make a covenant with the Jews for one week?

 

Perhaps this has always been the real issue in regards to Daniel, exactly what that final seven represents.  So bear with me, and consider the everlasting covenant from these Ezekiel passages.  Charlie pointed you to Jeremiah 32 which does speak to it, but I think the two passages from Ezekiel reveal a more direct connection to some of the terms we find in Daniel 11.

 

Ezekiel 16:59 “For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord God.”

 

If you read the entire chapter, which you really need to, in the prior sections the two sisters are identified as Samaria and Sodom.  In an earlier post I mentioned Ezekiel 23, where we see the two sisters, Oholah and Oholibah, which represent Samaria and Jerusalem respectively.  Now consider this, Samaria is the elder sister, and in this passage from Ezekiel 16 Sodom is the younger sister of both.  When was Sodom destroyed?  BEFORE Israel even existed, before these two older sisters even came to be.  People like to dismiss the spiritual understanding or rendering of passages, but when you see such obvious displays that it is necessary then I would just say that should probably be a practice you don't take part of.

The significance of Sodom being included in this is to reveal the understanding that this everlasting covenant applies not only to the divided kingdoms of Israel, but also the Gentiles.  When you come to grips with that, then you understand that this everlasting covenant is the very covenant that you and I are included in.  And you know when this covenant went into effect, not the future, but the past.

 

Ezekiel 37:24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

 

The same holds true for Ezekiel 37, you really want to study the entire chapter and not just the passage I posted.  There are certain absolute truths we know and have been taught in the New Testament (New Covenant), the most significant event in the history of creation is the death and resurrection of Jesus, which enacted the eternal promises.  Another absolute truth is that there is only one body, made of both Jew and Gentile, which by deduction means no more divided northern and southern kingdoms as well.  This is represented in the joining of the two sticks in Ezekiel 37.

 

I'll address some of your other questions in a separate post to avoid a lengthy read of different subjects.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, SONshine said:

Thanks! ... and I ‘m a sister.   

Oooops.....but you didn’t help me on that one! ?

whenever I see your name I think of Remember the Titans. I wonder if you know what I’m talking about. 

[wingnut-]

14 hours ago, Spock said:

Wing nut, has Charlie satisfactorily explained how Matthew 24:15-22 fits in to you with Daniel 9:26-27?

 

Well, charlie has not really addressed this directly by his own admission he has focused on Daniel.  He has taken some heat for that, but if we are honest with ourselves charlie has actually taken the proper approach per scripture.  Jesus seems to point us to the fact we need to understand Daniel before we can make sense of the Olivet discourse, so charlie is right to do so.

However, I already see how Matthew fits in with Daniel, but since so many people are stuck on future they really aren't willing to address the actual sequence we are given and ignore the historical fulfillment found within the Olivet discourse.  Many of the things people still believe are future and base their eschatology on took place in the first century.  In large part it is because everyone just relies on the account from Matthew and do not account for the other two accounts from Luke and Mark.  So start with this from Luke's account.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.

 

When you compare the three different accounts it is clear when they are speaking to the same things, even if they don't use the exact same wording in regards to each detail.  But the point is, using the specific sequence we get from Luke, we know that everything that follows verse 11 has to be examined in a broader context of time that begins in the 1st century.  In verse 11 Luke refers to terrors and great signs from heaven, which points us towards events in Revelation such as the two witnesses and the false prophet calling down fire from heaven, angels flying overhead with warnings, events involving the sun, moon, and starts, wormwood, etc.  Matthew and Mark refer to those two verses as birth pains  or the beginning of sorrows.  But when you take all three together it speaks to where it starts and where it ends, covering a large amount of time.

What Luke describes in verses 12-19 coincide with what Matthew refers to as the falling away, and this occurred in the 1st century, in fact, it began with the disciples themselves.

 

Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. 31 Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ 32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” 33 Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” 34 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” 35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.

 

Of course this was prior to the Holy Spirit indwelling them, but the point is that we are given a very real example of the same sequence Paul wrote of in II Thessalonians take place prior to the crucifixion, including the one and only example in scripture regarding the son of perdition, or son of destruction.

 

John 17:12  While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

The other thing in regards to what took place in Matthew 26, in the passage above, Jesus points us to a prophecy from Zechariah as being fulfilled.  This very passage is used in regards to future eschatology models, despite Jesus saying it was fulfilled in Him.

 

Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
    against the man who stands next to me,”
declares the Lord of hosts.

“Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
    I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
    two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
    and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

In the first 6 verses of chapter 13, Zechariah prophesies about a cleansing from sin and a fountain being opened to the house of David and Jerusalem.  Does any of that sound like what we see regarding the everlasting covenant?

Also, I recommend you examine and consider everything that took place at the last supper that night.

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

 

Does this sound like it is related to what we are discussing, or what Daniel speaks of in chapter 9?

 

14 hours ago, Spock said:

I’d like to read what you now consider to be the game changer evidence that takes you away from the traditional interpretation.

 

As you can see there are a lot of reasons I already viewed chapter 9 in this way, but I did find your use of "traditional" interpretation interesting.  Actually, what you are referring to is a modern interpretation, not more than a few hundred years old.  For roughly 1800 years or so, the modern interpretation was not the accepted interpretation of the church.  Charlie sees the RCC as the culprit, and on that we disagree, because there were other players involved in this newer and futuristic view which I see more as a result of Darby and his introduction of dispensationalism.  Which by the way was considered heresy by the majority of Christendom at the time, it began to gain more of a foothold when Israel became a nation again and people saw it as a possibility.  Prior to that there was no nation, no expectation of a nation, and thus no expectation of a third temple and other aspects of the future model.

While one can look at it and say the church just was unaware and understood all the prophecy incorrectly because of their short sightedness, it really doesn't hold water because the futurist view has a fatal flaw in regards to a third temple.  WE are the temple now, scriptural fact that cannot be reconciled, so naturally they wouldn't have considered even if a temple were built that it would change a thing.  And another scriptural fact, you don't find a physical temple in Revelation to be desecrated, that is something people are reading into the scriptures.

[Spock]

11 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Well, charlie has not really addressed this directly by his own admission he has focused on Daniel.  He has taken some heat for that, but if we are honest with ourselves charlie has actually taken the proper approach per scripture.  Jesus seems to point us to the fact we need to understand Daniel before we can make sense of the Olivet discourse, so charlie is right to do so.

However, I already see how Matthew fits in with Daniel, but since so many people are stuck on future they really aren't willing to address the actual sequence we are given and ignore the historical fulfillment found within the Olivet discourse.  Many of the things people still believe are future and base their eschatology on took place in the first century.  In large part it is because everyone just relies on the account from Matthew and do not account for the other two accounts from Luke and Mark.  So start with this from Luke's account.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.

 

When you compare the three different accounts it is clear when they are speaking to the same things, even if they don't use the exact same wording in regards to each detail.  But the point is, using the specific sequence we get from Luke, we know that everything that follows verse 11 has to be examined in a broader context of time that begins in the 1st century.  In verse 11 Luke refers to terrors and great signs from heaven, which points us towards events in Revelation such as the two witnesses and the false prophet calling down fire from heaven, angels flying overhead with warnings, events involving the sun, moon, and starts, wormwood, etc.  Matthew and Mark refer to those two verses as birth pains  or the beginning of sorrows.  But when you take all three together it speaks to where it starts and where it ends, covering a large amount of time.

What Luke describes in verses 12-19 coincide with what Matthew refers to as the falling away, and this occurred in the 1st century, in fact, it began with the disciples themselves.

 

Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. 31 Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ 32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” 33 Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” 34 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” 35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.

 

Of course this was prior to the Holy Spirit indwelling them, but the point is that we are given a very real example of the same sequence Paul wrote of in II Thessalonians take place prior to the crucifixion, including the one and only example in scripture regarding the son of perdition, or son of destruction.

 

John 17:12  While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

The other thing in regards to what took place in Matthew 26, in the passage above, Jesus points us to a prophecy from Zechariah as being fulfilled.  This very passage is used in regards to future eschatology models, despite Jesus saying it was fulfilled in Him.

 

Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
    against the man who stands next to me,”
declares the Lord of hosts.

“Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
    I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
    two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
    and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

In the first 6 verses of chapter 13, Zechariah prophesies about a cleansing from sin and a fountain being opened to the house of David and Jerusalem.  Does any of that sound like what we see regarding the everlasting covenant?

Also, I recommend you examine and consider everything that took place at the last supper that night.

 

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

 

Does this sound like it is related to what we are discussing, or what Daniel speaks of in chapter 9?

 

 

As you can see there are a lot of reasons I already viewed chapter 9 in this way, but I did find your use of "traditional" interpretation interesting.  Actually, what you are referring to is a modern interpretation, not more than a few hundred years old.  For roughly 1800 years or so, the modern interpretation was not the accepted interpretation of the church.  Charlie sees the RCC as the culprit, and on that we disagree, because there were other players involved in this newer and futuristic view which I see more as a result of Darby and his introduction of dispensationalism.  Which by the way was considered heresy by the majority of Christendom at the time, it began to gain more of a foothold when Israel became a nation again and people saw it as a possibility.  Prior to that there was no nation, no expectation of a nation, and thus no expectation of a third temple and other aspects of the future model.

While one can look at it and say the church just was unaware and understood all the prophecy incorrectly because of their short sightedness, it really doesn't hold water because the futurist view has a fatal flaw in regards to a third temple.  WE are the temple now, scriptural fact that cannot be reconciled, so naturally they wouldn't have considered even if a temple were built that it would change a thing.  And another scriptural fact, you don't find a physical temple in Revelation to be desecrated, that is something people are reading into the scriptures.

Thanks for answering all my questions wingnut....I definitely need some time to ponder and sort over everything you said. However, the very last thing you said has confused me. If I’m reading you write, it sounds like you don’t believe a 3rd temple needs to be built in Israel before the second coming. Is this true? 
 

If so, how do you reconcile these verses with that then...

2 thess 2: 

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Matt 24

15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’fn spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
 

Do you not believe what happened around 161 BC regarding AE was a Type, a foreshadow of things to come?  If that literally happened, why don’t you believe it could and will happen again with the Beast? 
 

I apologize if you already answered this previously or if I’m misunderstanding your last post to me. I’m tired and I’m getting confused with all these posts and threads. 
thanks again,

spock

[Spock]

1 hour ago, SONshine said:

Sure!  I love that movie.... and Sunshine in the movie was soooooo cute. 

Yes he was.....?

“Sunshineeeeeeeeeeeeeee”,  as said by Petey still rings in my brain today.