7 year tribulation

[Charlie744]

Spock, thank you for explaining the issue at hand... 

Where is there a 7 year covenant entered into by the Messiah..

To be candid, I really thought this had been addressed a few times in the last week or so..

 I know Retrobyter had at least one or two detailed, and obviously well written posts to this issue. Although my posts lack his and most others clarity and identified scripture verses, I thought they conveyed some of the same information.

1) before I comment, I would ask you to read the recent post sent to Retrobyter (above), which specifically focuses on the “New Covenant” from Jeremiah. For me, this is the 9:27 covenant confirmed by Jesus by the Cross. 

2) God / Messiah is the only one who can make a covenant with His people. This is the final and more perfect covenant between Jesus and His people AND the gentiles.

3) Obviously, His (this) Covenant is not a short term or 7 year covenant, rather it is one that will carry to His 2nd coming- this is the purpose of it - it is His Plan of Salvation for us - both Jew and gentile.

4) The 7 in 9:27 refers to the final 7 years of Daniel’ 490 years or the last week of the 70 weeks. 

5) Daniel has one 7 year period which is the third section of the 3 separate sections of the 70th week. 

6) Each of the “sections” had their own things to be completed within that section. The last week is the most important and includes those requirements to be fulfilled by the Messiah Himself.

7) The Messiah came into His ministry exactly as predicted- the very first day of the 70th week when He was baptized in the Jordan.

8) The wording in many translations do show the word “for”, as in the covenant was confirmed “for” 7 years. This clearly is inconsistent with other verses both within Daniel and in other books. 

9) The verses in Daniel speak of the coming Messiah. It is wrapped around the 70 weeks prophecy. The 9:27 “seven” is speaking about those things that DID happen to the Messiah—- I don’t see any reason here for a leap.. the verses from 9:24 onward all have the same theme including the actual events (punishments) to the Jews for their rejection of their Messiah. The prince of the people is certainly not “of God”, but refers to Titus who DID destroy the Temple, the Jews, etc. This is all clearly ONE complete story of the last week of Daniel.

10) If those things identified in the last week did not actually occur, then we would have to check our paperwork, but they did occur. One of the most amazing / frustrating things for me is when I find just about EVERYONE seems to accept the historical events during the post Alexander period as such an accurate description of the verses in chapter 11. However, most of those same scholars / interpreters will acknowledge the “holes” and disconnects in more than a few verses. But here in a relatively few verses, which clearly are meant to speak together (9:24 to 9:27), they allow one 3 letter word- “for” (which I believe is not a correct translation) to completely alter His prophetic message- which can be corrected by the actual historical events surrounding the Messiah.... I don’t understand this!!

Now all of the above has indeed be presented, and more, during the past month or so, especially the selection of the word “for”.

11) I am sure it was mentioned more than once, but I asked the question: If the word “for” was not there and instead the word “during or with or even in” was written there, would anyone contend the covenant or “he” was the anti-Christ figure who would now be connected to this covenant? And this covenant would be forced to occur some 2,000 years in the future?  

12) I have also mentioned this more than a few times— there was NO dispute as to the identity of the little horn by theologians, scholars, etc, up until the 1500’s. To get this accepted label off the papacy, the Jesuit Priest Ruberi or Ruberi (something like that) identified verses in Daniel that would move the identity of this little horn out into the future. This would immediately remove them from being the little horn in Daniel. They were very successful... now, “he” is not “He” which means the covenant will now follow him into the future and it will be a 7 year covenant. 

13) Scripture teaches Scripture— so much Scripture in the OT about the coming Messiah, what He will accomplish, how and when He would die... so why would anyone fail to follow this foolproof practice (SOS) of interpreting Daniel 9:24 to 9:27 and instead allow a 3 letter word (for) to suddenly change the entire prophetic message of the coming Messiah. We have taken away much of the love and sacrifice that He fulfilled and attributed these Holy events to some boogeyman. 

For me this is so clear... and I also said in earlier posts that “it works for me”. It doesn’t have to work for you or anyone else! There are literally billions of Christians that believe that “he” IS just a “he”  —- and that is ALL due to the RCC... they are so powerful..but that is also prophecized by God— he (little horn) will speak against God.

Well, I am officially done with chapter 9... I need to complete 11 & 12, and I have already started to solicit comments on Revelation for my next project- but I would rather NOT do Revelation on my own as Daniel... there are just too many talented / very knowledgeable folks in this forum- AND more than a few are fluent in Hebrew!!!

 Thank you again, Charlie 

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks Roy.....I read and reread this post specifically looking for a 7 year covenant which I believe is necessary because the word of god says “he confirms a covenant for one week.”  
 

im not trying to be obtuse here, just looking for Gods word to be fulfilled that satisfies myself. I still didn’t see any 7 year covenant Jesus made by you or anyone. The new covenant is an eternal one, not limited to 7 years.  But let me close by saying this....if you, Charlie, joe believe the new covenant is what is meant by Daniel 9:27, then that is fine by me....I’m not trying to win you to “my side.”  It’s not necessary for that to be. However, without a specific 7 year covenant being confirmed, I won’t budge here. I will continue to believe the AC will rise up, probably after the rapture and Gog War to promote and pass a bill in the UN that allows for Jews in Israel to resume their Mosaic Law practices (confirming that covenant).  Thus, a temple and sacrifices will then be allowed to be rebuilt. And this will allow for the man of sin to become the Beast after his fatal wound is healed and do his abomination of desolation thingy much like Antiochus did in 168 BC (type of Beast).  This then, In my opinion, fulfills God’s prophetic word to the T pursuant to Daniel 9:27.  If I am wrong in my understanding so be it, but I’m doing my best too. 
 

shalom,

spock

Shalom, Spock.

The MAKING of the "7-year covenant" is not Yeshua`s doing. GOD made the Davidic Covenant just like He anointed the Messiah.

Can you find where Yeshua` was anointed? No, not directly. We may ASSUME that He was anointed by the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) when He landed upon Yeshua` as a dove after His baptism, but the Scriptures don't say that.

When God made the covenant and Yeshua` confirmed it by submitting to His baptism, we see the same thing. God didn't SAY that He was making this covenant with the Jews "for 7 years," but we might ASSUME so BECAUSE of Daniel 9:27!

We also know that Yeshua` said, "A greater than Shlomoh (Solomon) is here!" speaking of Himself (Luke 11:31). We know that this speaks of Yeshua`s wisdom and His readiness to judge the nation of Israel wisely by following His Father's will.

If Yeshua` was a greater than Shlomoh, then His willingness to check with His Father for His Father's will in reigning over His people Israel also makes Him a greater than David, for David almost always did the same thing! And, David's reign was in stages: He reigned over the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") for 7 years in Hevrown ("Hebron") and then 33 years in Yerushalayim ("Jerusalem") over all twelve tribes of Israel. (2 Samuel 2:1-4; 1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:26-27)

So, one might also ASSUME that Yeshua`s reign might be patterned after David's with His reign over the tribe of Yhudah FIRST FOR SEVEN YEARS, just as David did. After all, He was heralded by the Magi as the "King of the Jews" shortly after His birth (possibly as late as two years after). And, even as late as His death, Yeshua` was called (by the soldiers mocking Him and by Pilate in the superscription on His cross) the "King of the Jews." Yeshua` never made it past that designation because the rulers of the Jews (the elders of Yhudah) would not accept Him as their King! (They were unfaithful stewards of the Kingdom - GOD'S Kingdom.)

The "man of sin," or rather, the "man who disregards God's Law," can still happen in our future, but he is totally disconnected with the prophecy of Daniel 9. By the way, this "man who disregards God's Law" would ONLY be a shocker if he is a child of Israel. It's totally NORMAL for a Gentile, even one who calls himself a "Christian," not to pay any respect to God's Law.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Retrobyter
to add a group

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks Roy.....I read and reread this post specifically looking for a 7 year covenant which I believe is necessary because the word of god says “he confirms a covenant for one week.”  
 

im not trying to be obtuse here, just looking for Gods word to be fulfilled that satisfies myself. I still didn’t see any 7 year covenant Jesus made by you or anyone. The new covenant is an eternal one, not limited to 7 years.  But let me close by saying this....if you, Charlie, joe believe the new covenant is what is meant by Daniel 9:27, then that is fine by me....I’m not trying to win you to “my side.”  It’s not necessary for that to be. However, without a specific 7 year covenant being confirmed, I won’t budge here. I will continue to believe the AC will rise up, probably after the rapture and Gog War to promote and pass a bill in the UN that allows for Jews in Israel to resume their Mosaic Law practices (confirming that covenant).  Thus, a temple and sacrifices will then be allowed to be rebuilt. And this will allow for the man of sin to become the Beast after his fatal wound is healed and do his abomination of desolation thingy much like Antiochus did in 168 BC (type of Beast).  This then, In my opinion, fulfills God’s prophetic word to the T pursuant to Daniel 9:27.  If I am wrong in my understanding so be it, but I’m doing my best too. 
 

shalom,

spock

Shalom, Spock.

Just a quick answer for now as I'm out the door for work. Sometimes, you have to read my answers to others as well as direct messages to you. Here's what I wrote earlier:

It's the Seven in which the Messiah has just re-enforced the Davidic Covenant, by submitting to His own mikvah - His own ritual cleansing - and hearing His Father's words, "THIS is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased!" Words from the Davidic Covenant! No longer was the covenant just a vague, "oh, that's nice" set of words in the distant past! This Covenant was brought TANGIBLY into the the Messiah's PRESENT! God AUDIBLY VERIFIED the words and ENDORSED HIS SON!

In the MIDDLE of that Seven, a mere 3.5 years after God's endorsement, these power-hungry, no good, sorry-for-excuses-to-be-elders of the Jews stabbed Him in the back with their shiquwtsiym! Then, they CRUCIFIED Him.... not realizing that in doing so, as the high priest Caiaphas said, "one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."

John 11:47-53 (KJV)

47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, 

"What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation! 

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas (Aramaic: Kayefa'), being the high priest that same year, said unto them, 

"Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

But, AS THEY CRUCIFIED HIM, His body became the Sacrifice "ONCE AND FOR ALL!"

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" 

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, 

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

To which the author of Hebrews said,

Hebrews 10:8-22 (KJV)

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 

I'll try to be more coherent and address this directly to you this evening, but I hope you can see part of my argument through this post. Have a great day!

[Retrobyter]

On 8/26/2020 at 7:33 AM, Charlie744 said:

Retrobyter, if I read / understood your comments, you believe the “covenant” in 9:27 refers to the Davidic covenant?

Please note below the comments made re:Jeremiah 31:31 to 34.

This New Covenant arises from the Crucifixion ... After reading would you mind sharing your thoughts? 

Thanks, Charlie 

 

a. The days are coming, says the LORD: What Jeremiah prophesied as God’s faithful messenger was not yet present in his day.

b. I will make a new covenant: God announced that at a time future to Jeremiah’s day Hewould make a new covenant. This new covenant would first be with Israel, but it would be not according to the covenantthat God made with Israel in the Sinai desert.

i. Throughout the Bible, God reveals His plan of redemption through a series of covenants. After the extended story of the fall and ruin of humanity in Genesis 1-11, the story of the covenants begins.

· The Abrahamic Covenant promised to Abraham and His covenant descendants a land, a nation, and a blessingto extend to all nations (Genesis 12:1-3).

· The Mosaic or Sinai Covenant gave Israel the law, the sacrifices, and the choice of blessing or curse (Exodus 19).

· The Davidic Covenant that promised an everlasting dynasty, a perfect ruler, and the Promised Messiah (2 Samuel 7).

· God’s plan of redemption through the covenants is completed and perfected in the New Covenant. Over the span of Old Testament passages that announce the new covenant (especially Ezekiel 11:16-20, 36:16-28, and 37:21-28), we see the promises of gathered Israel, of cleansing and spiritual transformation, and the reign of the Messiah.

ii. “The promise relates to a ‘new covenant’ and is a prediction of a radical change in God’s economy (i.e., his dealing with humanity).” (Feinberg)

iii. Jesus specifically instituted this new covenant by His death on the cross, and He specifically instituted the recognition and remembrance of it with the bread and cup of communion (Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20). It was future to Jeremiah’s day, but it was put into effect by Jesus and specifically by His work of atoning sacrifice at the cross.

iv. The writer to the Hebrews quotes this passage and develops the theme of the new covenant, especially in contrast to the old (Hebrews 8:8, 8:13, 9:15, and 12:14).

c. My covenant which they broke: A new covenant was promised and needed because Israel did not and could not keep the covenant God made with them at Sinai. That covenant was not designed to be enough; it was preparation for the new covenant to come.

i. “The old covenant had taken a new lease of life in Jeremiah’s early days, when the lost ‘book of the covenant’ was found and read and reaffirmed, to become the blueprint of Josiah’s continuing reformation. Yet everything that we have read in Jeremiah confirms that ‘the law made nothing perfect’, for the response was skin-deep, and died with the death of Joshua.” (Kidner)

d. I will put My law into their minds, and write it on their hearts: The new covenant brings inner transformation. The law of God was no longer only external; God would change the minds and hearts of those connected to Him by the new covenant.

i. The new covenant does not do away with or renounce the law. It makes the law closer and moreimportant by setting it in the mind and heart, instead of on a stone tablet or page. “It would no longer be like the external one made with the fathers, but spiritual and internal, and based on an intimate knowledge of Jehovah.” (Morgan)

Shalom, Charlie744.

You're right about the New Covenant, but in your own words, ...

"Please note below the comments made re:Jeremiah 31:31 to 34.

This New Covenant arises from the Crucifixion ... After reading would you mind sharing your thoughts?" 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

So, it was a PRIOR covenant to the New Covenant that Yeshua` "confirmed" or strengthened at His baptism and introduction into Jerusalem following (where He first cleansed the Temple of the money exchangers).

I don't have any problem believing that the New Covenant was begun following the death and resurrection of Yeshua`; however, there can be more than one covenant in effect at a time, and the Davidic Covenant is all about David's Seed reigning from David's Throne forever.

[Retrobyter]

On 8/26/2020 at 8:14 AM, Spock said:

Thanks Roy.....I read and reread this post specifically looking for a 7 year covenant which I believe is necessary because the word of god says “he confirms a covenant for one week.”  
 

im not trying to be obtuse here, just looking for Gods word to be fulfilled that satisfies myself. I still didn’t see any 7 year covenant Jesus made by you or anyone. The new covenant is an eternal one, not limited to 7 years.  But let me close by saying this....if you, Charlie, joe believe the new covenant is what is meant by Daniel 9:27, then that is fine by me....I’m not trying to win you to “my side.”  It’s not necessary for that to be. However, without a specific 7 year covenant being confirmed, I won’t budge here. I will continue to believe the AC will rise up, probably after the rapture and Gog War to promote and pass a bill in the UN that allows for Jews in Israel to resume their Mosaic Law practices (confirming that covenant).  Thus, a temple and sacrifices will then be allowed to be rebuilt. And this will allow for the man of sin to become the Beast after his fatal wound is healed and do his abomination of desolation thingy much like Antiochus did in 168 BC (type of Beast).  This then, In my opinion, fulfills God’s prophetic word to the T pursuant to Daniel 9:27.  If I am wrong in my understanding so be it, but I’m doing my best too. 
 

shalom,

spock

Shalom, Spock.

Okay. Let's see if we can answer this a little better, my brother:

The covenant which the Messiah confirmed (by submitting to being baptized) I believe was the DAVIDIC Covenant of 2 Samuel 7:11-16 and 1 Chronicles 17:10-14 (supported by God His Father responding audibly with "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" [Matthew 3:17], partially fulfilling the prophecy associated with that Covenant, namely, "I will be his father, and he shall be my son." [2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:13]), then we understand that this Covenant is all about David's Seed (Yeshua` the Messiah) becoming a King in like manner to David himself.

Not trying to be verbose; just trying to be thorough:

2 Samuel 7:11-16 (KJV)

11 " 'And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies.' "

"Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 " 'And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.' "

(These are Nathan's words to David in which he relates the LORD'S message.)

Matthew 3:17 (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying,

"I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"

15 And Jesus answering said unto him,

"Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Since David reigned over His own tribe, Yhudah or "Judah," for 7 years (2 Samuel 2:1-4; 1 Kings 2:11; 1 Chronicles 29:27) prior to becoming King of all Israel (2 Samuel 5:1-3; 1 Chronicles 11:1-3), then His Seed should also reign over His own tribe, Yhudah, the "Jews" for 7 years prior to becoming King of Israel.

2 Samuel 2:1-4a (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying,

"Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah?"

And the LORD said unto him,

"Go up."

And David said,

"Whither shall I go up?"

And he said,

"Unto Hebron."

2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. ...

1 Kings 2:11 (KJV)

11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

1 Chronicles 29:26-27 (KJV)

26 Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel. 27 And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

Indeed, Yeshua` was NAMED "King of the Jews" by the Magi shortly after His birth (Matthew 2:2)!

Matthew 2:1-2 (KJV)

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2Saying,

"Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him (to bend the knee to Him)."

The Roman soldiers who mocked Him, called Him that:

John 19:1-3 (KJV)

1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him. 2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, 3 And said,

"Hail, King of the Jews!"

and they smote him with their hands.

Even the superscription on the portion of His cross over His head contained the same words: "This is Jesus (Yeshua`), King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37).

Matthew 27:35-37 (KJV)

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet,

"They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots." (Psalm 22:18)

36 And sitting down they watched him there; 37 And set up over his head his accusation written, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."

However, the public offer of the Kingdom to the Jews was rejected, Yeshua` Himself being rejected as their King, and He was only able to offer the Kingdom for 3.5 years before they rejected Him and crucified Him!

John 19:4-6 (KJV)

4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them,

"Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him."

5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them,

"Behold the man!"

6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying,

"Crucify him, crucify him!" 

Pilate saith unto them,

"Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him."

Prior to the crucifixion, Yeshua` left THEM "desolate" in Matthew 23:38, and 3.5 years is half of the expected 7-year reign.

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Psalm 118:26) "

Since He was crucified "immediately" (a couple of days later) after leaving them "desolate," this corresponds to the Messiah being "cut off" in Daniel 9:26. So, specifically, the "AFTER (7 Sevens +) 62 Sevens (= 69 Sevens) shall Messiah be cut off" refers to half-way through the last Seven (for He participated in 4 Passovers after His baptism), when He was ACTUALLY "cut off."

Hopefully, this will clear up my position in your mind.

[Charlie744]

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to this question!

 I certainly agree with you that there can be more than one covenant.... in fact, I don’t believe ANY of His Covenants were ever removed or taken away. I believe the Messiah fulfilled the Davidic covenant ... unfortunately, the Jews could never have succeeded keeping the Laws under the Mosaic Covenant- only the Messiah could fulfill/keep them. I guess He completed / fulfilled both Covenants, and thank God He did!

 Thanks again for your response and all your comments in this forum, Charlie.

[WilliamL]

On 8/25/2020 at 8:42 PM, Spock said:

Where do you see “7 years” in what you wrote? 

The Jewish War lasted 7 years, from 66-73 AD. The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple took place "in the midst" of this week of years.

Nothing in Daniel 9 speaks anything about 3 1/2 times or years, which is a prophecy for another time, ours.

[Spock]

18 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The Jewish War lasted 7 years, from 66-73 AD. The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple took place "in the midst" of this week of years.

Nothing in Daniel 9 speaks anything about 3 1/2 times or years, which is a prophecy for another time, ours.

Okay, I think I get it now....you believe Daniels 70th week began at 66 AD-73 AD with the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD as the mid point.  
 

I can’t buy this interpretation, but thanks for explaining this. 

[WilliamL]

11 minutes ago, Spock said:

I can’t buy this interpretation, but thanks for explaining this. 

Nevertheless, every detail in Daniel 9:26b-27 was fulfilled to the letter in 66-73 AD. As confirmed by the record of Josephus, which I suspect you have never read.

[Charlie744]

I really don’t like reading all of these more talented and knowledgeable folks within this forum and finding my interpretations are either quite different (some extremely different), or just alittle different (example being we agree on exactly who “he” is but might see the “covenant” and or there is a “3.5 year period” yet to be addressed. However, there clearly are so many neat thoughts and interpretations—and I know for sure that God is pleased with all of this attention!

Sorry to repeat myself so many times but I seem to get tangled up after I read/go back into this discussion and it appears to me there is a kink in the straight line AS I SEE IT (right for me).

1) For me, the “covenant” represents the one from Jeremiah. Not sure about this next statement but this MAYBE the 7th and also the last covenant between God and mankind, and I believe the 7th of any seven anything’s is the most important in His Words. In any event, this covenant would be fulfilled by His crucifixion, not by His Baptism. And the proof of this MAYBE He sent His Holy Spirit to us at Pentecost (it wasn’t a delayed covenant or one that would take effect some 2,000 years later. His Baptism would confirm the timing of the coming of the “Anointed One”... (after 69 weeks.. then the Messiah). This had to be fulfilled or Daniel’s prophecies (all of his book) would be false.

2) He was indeed Baptized on day one of the 70th week, but He would not be able to serve as our High Priest UNTIL He would defeat the devils temptations in the desert.

3) Upon His first visit to the Temple, Jesus found the Temple was defiled by the Jews (money changers), and declared it “unclean. This would be on accordance to the laws of Leviticus where the High Priest would visit the Temple one week prior to the Passover. If unclean, it had to be cleansed OR the stones would have to be torn down and thrown outside the gates (and this is exactly what happened when Jesus attended the last Passover (His crucifixion), and indeed He (Stone the builders rejected was thrown outside the gates in Calvery).

4) So the Messiah began the 70th week with His Baptism, He would fulfill all 6 requirements found in Daniel (not 3 but all 6), and fulfill the Covenant with His crucifixion “in the midst of the week or 3.5 years into the 7 year period (last week of Daniel). 

5) He fulfilled everything written about Him in Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. DURING the last week of Daniel. Additionally, He fulfilled 4 of the 7 Jewish Feasts leaving only the Fall Feasts to be completed. I am certainly NO authority on the Fall Feasts but I don’t believe they include any activity or covenant making type events— the 6 requirements of the New Covenant was completed, now the events of the Fall Feasts take center stage (hope someone can drill down and possibly confirm this thought).

6) Consequently, Jesus declared “it is finished” on the Cross... it would not seem appropriate to me to claim He did NOT fulfill His Covenant after He told us so right before His death. Therefore, everything that was prophecized was completed DURING the last week and there is NO reason we need to try and “identify or fill” the remaining 3.5 years of the last week - He told us in 9:27 THIS TOO would happen... that’s it, it is finished!

7) So, despite the preposition “for” in 9:27, this verse can NOT be interpreted as a 7 year covenant ... it completely conflicts with the many prophecies in the Scriptures (especially Chapter 9). The Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come and they were aware He would bring in a New Covenant, but they could not possibly interpret the crucifixion and it’s timing in the midst of the last week. But because we are on this side of the Cross, we should have NO business NOT clearly see how perfectly these prophecies/verses speak of no one but the Messiah.

8) So the crucifixion (abomination) - the most horrendous act in mankind’ history, would indeed cause a significant punishment for their rejection of Him; the prince of the people in 9:26 (Titus), would serve as His agent to cause desolation upon Israel. 

9) Regarding the continuation of the sacrificial system AFTER His crucifixion (until 70 AD), this is a meaningless exercise (not to those Jews who did not believe Jesus was their Messiah), since His death eliminated all “types and shadows” - offerings, sacrifices, other ceremonies,etc. Consequently, they are no longer relevant to or within His Plan of Salvation- there is a completely new plan or covenant to be honored by man. Therefore, an “abomination” found in Daniel, the NT and certainly in Revelation can NOT refer to ANY event, damage, denigration or unholy activity to either Temple- the one at 70 AD OR a 3rd Temple that might be built by the Jews in the future. It would not be a Holy building no matter how much the Jews would want it to be— only God can make something Holy and that “system” and associated physical characteristics have been replaced. 

Now for me, this seems to work... it tells the story of the coming Messiah- it is and should be ALL about Him! 

But if we change or interpret “he” as “he” and contend the preposition “for” must represent a perfect or the intended translation (despite its conflicts with the rest of the chapter and those Scriptures supporting the coming Messiah, then it would be easy to construct a very different interpretation AND carry it forward to severely corrupt our interpretation of Revelation. 

Just my thoughts and thanks, Charlie