When is the rapture?

[Last Daze]

15 minutes ago, luigi said:

How can the Lord come with ten thousands of His saints, if those saints have not already been caught up (raptured) earlier?

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

The Lord descends to the clouds.  We are made immortal and gathered to Him.  He returns to Earth with us.  Nothing says we have to be with Him when He leaves heaven and descends to the clouds.

[Bob Carabbio]

On 8/22/2020 at 6:37 AM, Moby said:

I have been looking for a good explanation on the timing of the rapture as there seems to be so much dissension out there among the brethren as to whether it happens before 7 years of tribulation, 3.5 years into the tribulation, or after the tribulation.

Since "Eschatology" is just another term for "Rank Speculation" I stopped having any concern or interest in it years ago.  Bottom line - There's a church - mature, and united spoken of in Ephesians 4:3 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

Since THAT "Visible Church" isn't even on the radar yet, and obviously won't exist in my lifetime, I'll simply watch it happen on the OTHER side of the sky.

The only REAL answer is: It'll happen when He's ready.

[luigi]

21 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

The Lord descends to the clouds.  We are made immortal and gathered to Him.  He returns to Earth with us.  Nothing says we have to be with Him when He leaves heaven and descends to the clouds.

So let me see if I have your perspective straight. You say the Lord hovers in the clouds and picks up several tens of thousands to be caught up/raptured saints, then goes away for a while, then returns for another batch of saints?

[Spock]

44 minutes ago, luigi said:

So let me see if I have your perspective straight. You say the Lord hovers in the clouds and picks up several tens of thousands to be caught up/raptured saints, then goes away for a while, then returns for another batch of saints?

He didn’t say that Luigi.  Please reread his post...slower this time. (Yes, I’m a retired teacher.)

spock

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

So let me see if I have your perspective straight. You say the Lord hovers in the clouds and picks up several tens of thousands to be caught up/raptured saints, then goes away for a while, then returns for another batch of saints?

No, the sequencing is what we see in Acts 1:9-11 only in reverse.

• And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.  And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

[luigi]

51 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

No, the sequencing is what we see in Acts 1:9-11 only in reverse.

• And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.  And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

That does not answer my question about the Lord coming with tens of thousands of his saints, whether those saints were raptured earlier. I believe they had to be caught up/raptured earlier. How else would the scripture which states that we the living who remain upon the Lord's return will not precede those who died before? The alternative is to believe that the Lord returns with tens of thousands of his saints, picks up the dead saints first, leaves, then returns and picks up the remnant surviving saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[Last Daze]

18 minutes ago, luigi said:

How else would the scripture which states that we the living who remain upon the Lord's return will not precede those who died before?

Those who are Christs are made immortal when He returns.  This includes both those saints who have died along with those who are still alive at that time.

• For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24

There's nothing to indicate how much time lapses between the dead being raised immortal and the alive being changed, just that the one precedes the other.  We do know that after both groups are made immortal, they are gathered to Him.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Both groups are caught up together.

[luigi]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

He didn’t say that Luigi.  Please reread his post...slower this time. (Yes, I’m a retired teacher.)

spock

Hello Spock, This is lastdazes statement: "The Lord descends to the clouds.  We are made immortal and gathered to Him.  He returns to Earth with us.  Nothing says we have to be with Him when He leaves heaven and descends to the clouds."

So now let's see if we can put this together: 1) The Lord returns and is in the clouds. 2) We here on the earth are made immortal and gathered to Him. 3) He returns to Earth with us. 

LastDaze also made the claim that when the Lord leaves heaven, that when he descends to the clouds that nothing says we are with Him then.

In contrast to LastDazes comment, I posted Jude 1:14 which states that when the Lord returns, he does so with tens of thousands of His saints. Doing so indicates that these saints were in heaven with him, and thereby having been caught up/raptured earlier. My perspective is also corroborated in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 which clearly states that we the living on the earth upon the Lord's return shall not precede those killed previously. Those killed previously had been caught up/raptured earlier. 

The alternative perspective to a one time return of the Lord with his earlier caught up/raptured saints, is that the Lord returns to the clouds where he picks up his martyred saints, then leaves, and after some time comes back again to pick up his remnant surviving saints. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by luigi

[Spock]

1 minute ago, luigi said:

Hello Spock, This is lastdazes statement: "The Lord descends to the clouds.  We are made immortal and gathered to Him.  He returns to Earth with us.  Nothing says we have to be with Him when He leaves heaven and descends to the clouds."

So now let's see if we can put this together: 1) The Lord returns and is in the clouds. 2) We here on the earth are made immortal and gathered to Him. 3) He returns to Earth with us. 

LastDaze also made the claim that when the Lord leaves heaven, that when he descends to the clouds that we are nothing says we are with Him then.

In contrast to LastDazes comment, I posted Jude 1:14 which states that when the Lord returns, he does so with tens of thousands of His saints. Doing so indicates that these saints were in heaven with him, and thereby having been caught up/raptured earlier. My perspective is also corroborated in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 which clearly states that we the living on the earth upon the Lord's return shall not precede those killed previously. Those killed previously had been caught up/raptured earlier. 

The alternative perspective to a one time return of the Lord with his earlier caught up/raptured saints, is that the Lord returns to the clouds where he picks up his martyred saints, then leaves, and after some time comes back again to pick up his remnant surviving saints. 

But you said Jesus returns to earth (2nd time) to pick up another batch. He didn’t say that. He said when Jesus returns a second time, he is bringing all the people he picked up the first time back with him. 

[luigi]

22 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Those who are Christs are made immortal when He returns.  This includes both those saints who have died along with those who are still alive at that time.

• For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24

There's nothing to indicate how much time lapses between the dead being raised immortal and the alive being changed, just that the one precedes the other.  We do know that after both groups are made immortal, they are gathered to Him.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Both groups are caught up together.

It is obvious to me that if the Lord returns with tens of thousands of his saints, that these saints would then have been caught up/raptured at some earlier time, and not just some minutes earlier. There would be no need for scriptures to inform us that the dead in Christ would rise first, if this were just minutes before the living being caught up/raptured.