Why can’t the CHURCH be in part of the 70th week?

[luigi]

23 minutes ago, Spock said:

Luigi,

I happen to believe the trumpets and bowls are the WRATH OF GOD and have NOT BEEN RELEASED YET, but will be AFTER the abomination of desolation when we are in the great tribulation.  
 

What you are describing is not the wrath of God, but rather man’s carelessness in not taking care of the planet.  I think you and I interpret how Revelation plays out differently. 

More importantly Spock, 

As the Lord's angels illumine mankind with truth with the signs they now provide in relation to mankind's destruction of the planet due to his love for the products his hands produce through fossil fuels; they who then recognize these signs, but advocate against the truth, calling it a hoax, are they who cast truth to the ground and stomp all over the stars of heaven.

 Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Daniel 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

[Biblican]

Hi Spock,

The pre-tribbers are wrong in seeing I Thess 4 as the pretrib rapture because most of them just follow somebody else's' teaching and don't look at the scriptures for themselves. If they did, they would see that Paul is referring to what happens when Jesus returns, verse 16 - "For the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout...and the dead in Christ shall rise first."  That's the first resurrection and that happens when Jesus returns after the tribulation. Correlate this with Jesus' statement in Matthew 24, when He says "After the tribulation of those days" - He sends His angels to gather His elect (Verse 31).

The only precedent I see for a pretrib rapture is in Rev. 11, when the two witnesses are called up to heaven before the last trumpet sounds. They represent the 144,000 who are the Philadelphian remnant that is promised to be kept. To confirm this we see them in heaven in the first part of chapter fourteen before the warning not to take the mark and the blood bath that occurs in the later portion of that chapter. That as I see it, is when the tribulation actually starts, from chapter 14 on, the period that Jesus is referring to after the abomination in the temple is revealed, which is man demanding worship as god.

Cyrus Scofield taught that the tribulation begins in after a rapture because he saw the tribulation beginning before the warning period of the seven trumpets in chapter 8. He saw John's calling up to heaven as the rapture, but if that is the case then why do we see John being commissioned to preach the gospel in chapter ten? John was merely being called up to a higher level of revelation as previously he had been given his instructions directly. Now the method by which he would receive his instructions was changing. His calling up signifies that change. Scofield did not understand prophetic symbolism. The trumpets are used in scripture to call religious assemblies and also before a war. In context the trumpets in these passages represent a warning before the tribulation. The plagues or judgments are progressive going from affecting the planet from 1/3rd to 100% by the time we get to their fulfillment in chapter sixteen.  Most Christians follow Scofield's interpretation without question and that's where the confusion arises. He also taught that the 144,000 were just Jews. Again, he did not understand prophetic symbolism and ignored the fact that Manasseh replaces Dan, which tells us that these tribes are symbolic. Manasseh was a half-Gentile tribe from Joseph, who is a similitude of Jesus, so we are seeing the Gentiles being grafted into the Hebrew Olive Tree as Paul taught.  I spent six long years doing an expository study of Revelation from scratch and that's what I get. I put the whole study on my website cafelogos.org if you are interested. I enjoy getting feedback. Iron sharpens iron. Have a blessed day. I'll be back on Monday.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Simple, WRATH starts before the abomination. The DAY of wrath starts at the 6th seal, and we have no appointments with His wrath. Mediate on 1 thes. 5 and discover that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. There will be no time between: it is going to change from the age of grace to the Day of the Lord and wrath INSTANTLY at the rapture. 

John confirms this, showing the raptured church in heaven just after the 6th seal.

So why can’t the 6th seal be released right at the abomination of desolation?  
 

If think you are aware that I accepted David Lowe’s seals interpretation and now believe seals 1-5 have been released when Jesus ascended and have played out for nearly 2000 years.  I believe God’s wrath begins at the  6th seal.  So why can’t it be released right at the abomination?

[JohnR7]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IF THERE WAS A PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE BEING TAUGHT, AND YOU WERE PAUL 

AND YOU HAD TO CLEAR UP THE FALSE TEACHING OF IT

WHAT WORDS WOULD YOU USE THAT WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THESE?  

Paul is in Heaven so he would give us a packet of information to process over time.

So I opened my mouth, and He fed me the scroll. “Son of man,” He said to me, “eat and fill your stomach with this scroll I am giving you.” So I ate, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth.  Then He said to me, “Son of man, go now to the house of Israel and speak My words to them" (Ezekiel 3:2,3,4)

Perhaps this is what David means when he says: "Taste and see that the lord is good" (Psalm 34:8) 

Psalm 119:103
How sweet are Your words to my taste, sweeter than honey in my mouth.

Edited September 12, 2020 by JohnR7

[DeighAnn]

 

 

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Thank you for taking the time to prove the point I was making.

So Paul does tell us that that day, the day of the Lord, will not take the believer by surprise.

1 Thes 5

 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Further, Jesus, pinpoints this coming.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So if we know Jesus is coming immediately after the tribulation, we're set. We know that the abomination of desolation has to happen first. We know Jerusalem is going to be surround by armies.

So there you have it. The believers will not be surprised at all when Jesus is coming. In fact, they will know that He is coming at the last trump, blown on the feast of trumpets. And who are these believers. They are the 12 tribes across the earth that will be regrafted. We know that will be a great harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth because there are 144,000 first fruits that GUARANTEE this harvest.

So when are these 12 twelve tribes going to see that Jesus is the Messiah? Paul does not want you to be ignorant about this.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This occurs before the 70th week of Daniel begins. And when is the event of the fullness of the Gentiles coming in?

Matt 24

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So we know when the Lord is coming and we also know that He is coming in an hour that we think not.

It's pretty easy to conclude that there will be two raptures. One for his church before the 70th week and one for the regrafted 12 tribes across the earth before the wrath of God begins. The nation of  Israel will remain on earth in a place of protection during the wrath of God, just like the Word says.

 

 

 

Thank you for making it possible for me to clarify though

I don't know what point you were trying to make but the Lord does NOT come as a thief in the night to those who know His Word.  


Let's go through it all once again.  And let's do it GODS WAY this time.  LINE UPON LINE.  
It would be great if you would to so we could see where the division is coming about.  If this doesn't help We could go through 2nd Thess as it really would help clear it up.  
 

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
A new covenant church.  The church that the gentiles are grafted into.  Once grafted in have become the seed of Abraham, Israel.  Not separate, not on their own.  Not special.  Not to be wise in their own conceits because the natural branches are to be grafted back in.  Does God tell us anywhere that BEFORE THEN He will be doing anything special with the Church?  No.  The only thing going to happen is when the fullness of the gentiles comes in, the blindness comes off.  The Lord never mentions that there is a removal of the church prior to that.  

1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Patience of hope, because we remember God told those "grafted in watch it or you will be cut off to0"  never said "you will be taken to heaven before they are grafted back in".    If He had you would no doubt put it forth. 

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
WHO ARE WE BEING TOLD IS AN ELECTION OF GOD?  THE GENTILE CHURCH.  AND WHERE ARE THE ELECTION FOR THE TRIBULATION?  RIGHT HERE ON EARTH BEING GIVEN UP FOR 10 DAY TRIAL.  lets make this point number 1.  

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

 

1 Thessalonians 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit.
Followers of US, the Word received IN MUCH AFFLICTION.  We know that Gods Wrath doesn't fall on US, SO becoming believers in Christ keeps you from wrath.  (note the lack of need to go anywhere pre trib?  also note that much Tribulation/affliction comes along with it. 




thlipsis 2347  persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation 

Does God seem to have any problem with His own going through tribulation and affliction and distress and persecution?  NO, NONE, NOT AT ALL, Even tells us how it helps us.  Just as it helped OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.

Point number 2  God tells us we will go through much tribulation

 

1 Thessalonians 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

1 Thessalonians 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
God gives us the gospel armor and power over all our enemies  and we are to serve  Point 3 I believe

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
We have already been delivered from the wrath by belief.  Having been delivered from the wrath TO COME.  Gods wrath is coming, just not ON US. Not word one about "by coming before and flying you back to heaven".  No need, we have ALREADY BEEN DELIVERED FROM IT. 

1 Thessalonians 2:1 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

1 Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

1 Thessalonians 2:3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

1 Thessalonians 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

God TRIES our hearts.  Would God remove the church not trying their hearts?  NO because we were just told HE DOES

1 Thessalonians 2:5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

1 Thessalonians 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

1 Thessalonians 2:8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

1 Thessalonians 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,

1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Not who will be taking you to, but called you unto

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Followers of the churches of God, grafted in, now seed of Abraham

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
 

1 Thessalonians 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.

1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
Notice the LACK OF any reference to 2 comings.  Paul just speaks of the one here.  As is done EVERYWHERE throughout the Word.  If indeed he believed in two comings he no doubt would have given this clarification because God is not the author of confusion.  The very lack of mention causes confusion because we have a theory that adds one to the Word of God.  

1 Thessalonians 2:20 For ye are our glory and joy.

1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

1 Thessalonians 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

WE ARE APPOINTED UNTO, YOU GOT IT, TRIBULATIONS.  WHO IS BEING SPOKEN TO?  THE NEW COVENANT CHURCH.  

1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Repeated for emphasis Doing is the work of the Lord isn't a free ride.  We are to SERVE HIS PURPOSE.  

1 Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
We will be tempted, like the hour of temptation. 

1 Thessalonians 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:

1 Thessalonians 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:

1 Thessalonians 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
How do we live?  by STANDING FAST

1 Thessalonians 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;

1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
Our faith needs to be perfected, just as our Lord and Saviours was

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Our hearts need to be stablished unblameable in holiness, and that is at the end when
the coming of our Lord with all his saints.  No mention of 2 comings.  If there were 2 comings we would have been told to which one he is referring.  God is not the author of confusion.  

1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
There are ways we ought to walk to please God, and we are to abound more and more

1 Thessalonians 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

1 Thessalonians 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us His holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1 Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

1 Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

1 Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
We are about to be told about what happens when this flesh dies, or why we are to rejoice at a death and morn at a birth. Don't lose sight of the subject.  Don't let the tempter come and tempt. 

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
BIG HUGE IMPORTANT 

JESUS DIED AND ROSE, EVEN SO THEM,
THEM BEING THOSE WHO HAVE DIED IN THE FLESH

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
ONCE again the coming of the Lord. ONCE again, no mention of 2 so no pointing out which one it would be.  God is not the author of confusion.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Get rid of the theory and ALL THIS IS CRYSTAL CLEAR.  REMAINS CRYSTAL CLEAR.  THERE IS NO CONFUSION.  WE KNOW WHEN AND WHO. THAT IS WHY HIS COMING/RETURN IS NEVER EVER "CLARIFIED".  IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE.  HE IS RETURING AS LORD OF LORD AND KING OF KINGS AT THE TRUMP OF GOD.  

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
These words ARE THE COMFORT.  If there were to be a pre trip, there would most certainly be THOSE WORDS OF COMFORT FOUND HERE.  But again, not a word of clarity.  Not a hint that it needs to be clarified.  

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
Nothing needs to be cleared up?  Nothing needs to be spoken of as to time and seasons?  If there were a Rap trip happening THE TIMES AND SEASONS WOULD DEFINITELY NEED TO BE WRITTEN ABOUT  HERE AND IF NOT HERE, THEN SOMEWHERE. ANYWHERE.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Here we go YET AGAIN.  The day of the Lord with out ANY reference to 'ANOTHER DAY OF THE LORD COMING'  IT IS NEVER SPOKEN OF BECAUSE IT ISN'T. 

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
They SHALL SAY, FOLLOWED BY SUDDEN DESTRUCTION

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
We are in the light knowing that Christ returns AFTER the workings of the wicked one.  We know the witnesses will lie dead in the streets 3 1/2 days.  NO WE ARE NOT IN THE DARK.  

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Who is of the night?  Who is of darkness?  Not us.  

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
What will it be like?  Like the days of Noah, eating and drinking

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
So if they of the night will be here and we are not to be doing as they are doing, THEN WE WILL BE HERE.  WHO IS WE?  This new covenant church to which the gentiles are grafted in. 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
WE were just told we have ALREADY been saved through our faith and that WRATH doesn't fall on us, but it falls on THEM

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice evermore.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Need it be pointed out again?  

1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.


 

POINT  1.  THE NEW COVENANT CHURCH, THE LUMP AND ROOT TO WHICH THE GENTILES ARE GRAFTED INTO, NEED TO KNOW THEIR ELECTION OF GOD.  GOD SPEAKS OF ANOTHER ELECTION AND THAT IS OF THE NATURAL SEED.  

SO THE NATURAL SEED AND THE CHURCH ARE THE ELECTION OF GOD.  GOD MAKES THIS POINT ELSEWHERE WHEN HE TELLS US

2ND WITNESS 
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

3RD WITNESS 
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Point 2  God tells us we will go through much tribulation

Point 3  God gives us the gospel armor and power over all our enemies and we are to serve the Lord.

Point 4  We have already been delivered from the wrath that is coming upon the whole world through our belief in Jesus

Point 5  God TRIES our hearts.

Point 6  The church is appointed unto tribulations.  

Point 7  Our faith needs to be perfected

The THEORY tells us that we don't need to be perfected, suffer tribulation, have our hearts tried, put on gospel armor, that we are not of the seed of Abraham and that the only way the Wrath of God can be come upon the world is if the church is no longer here.    

Eyes and ears.  

 

[iamlamad]

On 9/12/2020 at 10:17 AM, Spock said:

So why can’t the 6th seal be released right at the abomination of desolation?  
 

If think you are aware that I accepted David Lowe’s seals interpretation and now believe seals 1-5 have been released when Jesus ascended and have played out for nearly 2000 years.  I believe God’s wrath begins at the  6th seal.  So why can’t it be released right at the abomination?

Pure logic: I am amazed you have not seen this.

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

You tell us: which is emphasized here: the book or the seals? Of course, THE BOOK.  The book has writing INSIDE: it is the book that is most important, not the seals - the seals only protect the book until the right person comes along worthy to break these seals so the BOOK can be opened. 

John did not write it, but I think logically it is to be understood: once the final seal is opened, THEN and only then can the book be opened - and what we read after the 7th seal is what is written INSIDE the book. In other words, it is what is INSIDE THE BOOK that will get Satan cast down. 

Please then, you tell us: how in the world can any seal align with a trumpet (when the abomination happens)? HOW? NOTHING can happen in chapter 8 (and later) until all seals are opened so that the BOOK can be opened. Make no mistake here, at a minimum, the trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book. 

In other words, it is IMPOSSIBLE that the 6th seal be opened in chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, etc. These chapters are what is INSIDE the book. 

 So why can’t it be released right at the abomination?  Read Dan. 9:27 and tell us what happens at the abomination.  Remember what Paul wrote, that the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple....  Read what Jesus wrote about the abomination and tell us what HE said people should do at the abomination.....

[Spock]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Pure logic: I am amazed you have not seen this.

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

You tell us: which is emphasized here: the book or the seals? Of course, THE BOOK.  The book has writing INSIDE: it is the book that is most important, not the seals - the seals only protect the book until the right person comes along worthy to break these seals so the BOOK can be opened. 

John did not write it, but I think logically it is to be understood: once the final seal is opened, THEN and only then can the book be opened - and what we read after the 7th seal is what is written INSIDE the book. In other words, it is what is INSIDE THE BOOK that will get Satan cast down. 

Please then, you tell us: how in the world can any seal align with a trumpet (when the abomination happens)? HOW? NOTHING can happen in chapter 8 (and later) until all seals are opened so that the BOOK can be opened. Make no mistake here, at a minimum, the trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book. 

In other words, it is IMPOSSIBLE that the 6th seal be opened in chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, etc. These chapters are what is INSIDE the book. 

 So why can’t it be released right at the abomination?  Read Dan. 9:27 and tell us what happens at the abomination.  Remember what Paul wrote, that the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple....  Read what Jesus wrote about the abomination and tell us what HE said people should do at the abomination.....

I still don’t see an answer to my simple question here. Maybe you should have explained it without leaving it up to me to figure it out. 
 

But to answer your question, it appears to me Jesus said for the Jews to flee to the mountains. He didn’t give advice to anyone else because I’m thinking the rapture has just occurred or will occur immediately after the abomination. Remember, like David Lowe documented rightly I may add, whenever there is a resurrection, there is an earthquake. (Jesus, saints who rose after crucifixion, 2 witnesses, and I believe the church saints.) 

I agree with you...the seals are different than the trumpets and bowls. I believe the wrath of God is unleashed at trumpet one, immediately after the 6th seal. But before the wrath is unleashed the church has to be removed. Honestly, I’m not dogmatic about the timing of the rapture in regards to is it before Daniels 70th week or before the Great tribulation.....but I believe it is before one of them, just not sure which one.  If I can’t get answers to satisfy the questions I have regarding the rapture before the 70th week begins, then I tend to think more that the rapture will occur right at the abomination because I don’t believe God’s wrath begins u til the abomination occurs. 

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Spock said:

I still don’t see an answer to my simple question here. Maybe you should have explained it without leaving it up to me to figure it out. 
 

But to answer your question, it appears to me Jesus said for the Jews to flee to the mountains. He didn’t give advice to anyone else because I’m thinking the rapture has just occurred or will occur immediately after the abomination. Remember, like David Lowe documented rightly I may add, whenever there is a resurrection, there is an earthquake. (Jesus, saints who rose after crucifixion, 2 witnesses, and I believe the church saints.) 

I agree with you...the seals are different than the trumpets and bowls. I believe the wrath of God is unleashed at trumpet one, immediately after the 6th seal. But before the wrath is unleashed the church has to be removed. Honestly, I’m not dogmatic about the timing of the rapture in regards to is it before Daniels 70th week or before the Great tribulation.....but I believe it is before one of them, just not sure which one.  If I can’t get answers to satisfy the questions I have regarding the rapture before the 70th week begins, then I tend to think more that the rapture will occur right at the abomination because I don’t believe God’s wrath begins u til the abomination occurs. 

Suppose someone hands you a birthday card and a book, tells you how exciting a book it is, but tells you DON'T OPEN IT until your birthday, and you must read the card first, before the book, but ONLY on your birthday. You agree. If you are honest then, you can know nothing that is inside the book UNTIL your birthday. And you certainly cannot know what is inside the book, before you know what is inside the card! The card must come FIRST. 

In the same way, nothing written inside the book is going to come to pass until all the seals that are sealing the book are opened first. You are trying to align the card with something inside the book. The ONLY relationship between the card and the book is TIME: the card must be opened first. 

Did you notice that once a seal is opened, it is NEVER MENTIONED again. EAch seal has a two-fold purpose: first, to make LEGAL what is written inside that seal, so that event can legally begin once the seal is opened. The secondary purpose is to prevent the book from being opened and the events written INSIDE the book come to pass until all seals are opened first. So a seal is opened, that event is now legal and it comes to pass, and then that seal is FORGOTTEN; its purpose finished. 

By the time John gets to chapter 8 and the 7th seal, all the first seals are over and their purpose finished. It is now time to open the book and bring to pass what is written inside the book. That would be the trumpet judgments. No trumpet can possibly sound before all seven seals are opened first. In fact, No angel is given a trumpet TO sound, until all seals are opened. Probably the first thing written in the book is that 7 angels are given 7 trumpets.

Dan 9:27: SOME event will stop the daily sacrifices and it will happen on day 1260, dividing the  week into two equal halves. it will be an abomination.
Matthew 24: Jesus said, when people  see this abomination (that will divide the week) they are to flee.

Paul tells us what this abomination will be: the man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies and declare HE IS GOD. This act will desecrate the temple and before any more sacrifices can take place, they will need to find a red heifer without spot or blemish! In other words, the daily sacrifices will STOP the day he enters the most holy place in the temple. It will be the exact midpoint of the week. 

Can we find that exact midpoint in Revelation? Yes. We see those in Judea begin to flee in REv. 12:6. We know therefore that the TIME of that verse is a second or two after the abomination that divided the week. Further proof is that the last half of the week is delineated in chapters 11, 12, and 13, by countdowns to the end of the week, two given in days, two given in months, and one given as "times."

So you ask, why can't the 6th seal be at the 7th trumpet? My answer is, it is simply impossible. NO trumpet can sound until all seals are opened so the BOOK can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments. 

But before the wrath is unleashed the church has to be removed. Honestly, I’m not dogmatic about the timing of the rapture Wow! It seems then what you lack is the knowledge that the 7th week is "marked" by 7's: 7th seal - 7th trumpet - 7th vial. You have the rapture correct: just before wrath and wrath beginning at the 6th seal. This is proven by the great crowd too large to number seen in heaven just after the 6th seal. 

[Spock]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Suppose someone hands you a birthday card and a book, tells you how exciting a book it is, but tells you DON'T OPEN IT until your birthday, and you must read the card first, before the book, but ONLY on your birthday. You agree. If you are honest then, you can know nothing that is inside the book UNTIL your birthday. And you certainly cannot know what is inside the book, before you know what is inside the card! The card must come FIRST. 

In the same way, nothing written inside the book is going to come to pass until all the seals that are sealing the book are opened first. You are trying to align the card with something inside the book. The ONLY relationship between the card and the book is TIME: the card must be opened first. 

Did you notice that once a seal is opened, it is NEVER MENTIONED again. EAch seal has a two-fold purpose: first, to make LEGAL what is written inside that seal, so that event can legally begin once the seal is opened. The secondary purpose is to prevent the book from being opened and the events written INSIDE the book come to pass until all seals are opened first. So a seal is opened, that event is now legal and it comes to pass, and then that seal is FORGOTTEN; its purpose finished. 

By the time John gets to chapter 8 and the 7th seal, all the first seals are over and their purpose finished. It is now time to open the book and bring to pass what is written inside the book. That would be the trumpet judgments. No trumpet can possibly sound before all seven seals are opened first. In fact, No angel is given a trumpet TO sound, until all seals are opened. Probably the first thing written in the book is that 7 angels are given 7 trumpets.

Dan 9:27: SOME event will stop the daily sacrifices and it will happen on day 1260, dividing the  week into two equal halves. it will be an abomination.
Matthew 24: Jesus said, when people  see this abomination (that will divide the week) they are to flee.

Paul tells us what this abomination will be: the man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies and declare HE IS GOD. This act will desecrate the temple and before any more sacrifices can take place, they will need to find a red heifer without spot or blemish! In other words, the daily sacrifices will STOP the day he enters the most holy place in the temple. It will be the exact midpoint of the week. 

Can we find that exact midpoint in Revelation? Yes. We see those in Judea begin to flee in REv. 12:6. We know therefore that the TIME of that verse is a second or two after the abomination that divided the week. Further proof is that the last half of the week is delineated in chapters 11, 12, and 13, by countdowns to the end of the week, two given in days, two given in months, and one given as "times."

So you ask, why can't the 6th seal be at the 7th trumpet? My answer is, it is simply impossible. NO trumpet can sound until all seals are opened so the BOOK can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments. 

But before the wrath is unleashed the church has to be removed. Honestly, I’m not dogmatic about the timing of the rapture Wow! It seems then what you lack is the knowledge that the 7th week is "marked" by 7's: 7th seal - 7th trumpet - 7th vial. You have the rapture correct: just before wrath and wrath beginning at the 6th seal. This is proven by the great crowd too large to number seen in heaven just after the 6th seal. 

Wow, we are definitely not communicating brother. Maybe we are reading too fast. 
I never said what is in bold red above....never.  In fact if you go back over my recent posts, I said the 1st trumpet is released after the abomination of desolation, not the 7th trumpet. 
 

and let me add to your story here because I agree with you...the midpoint of Daniels week does seem to be rev 12:6. But guess what Rev 12:5 is?  THE RAPTURE!!! 
5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule^a all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne...”

Guess who is the male child who was caught up (harpazo) to God?  Besides Jesus....THE CHURCH BABY!  I believe this passage has duality written all over it. 
 

spock

 

[iamlamad]

18 minutes ago, Spock said:

Wow, we are definitely not communicating brother. Maybe we are reading too fast. 
I never said what is in bold red above....never.  In fact if you go back over my recent posts, I said the 1st trumpet is released after the abomination of desolation, not the 7th trumpet. 
 

and let me add to your story here because I agree with you...the midpoint of Daniels week does seem to be rev 12:6. But guess what Rev 12:5 is?  THE RAPTURE!!! 
5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule^a all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne...”

Guess who is the male child who was caught up (harpazo) to God?  Besides Jesus....THE CHURCH BABY!  I believe this passage has duality written all over it. 
 

spock

 

I never said what is in bold red above....never.  In fact if you go back over my recent posts, I said the 1st trumpet is released after the abomination of desolation, not the 7th trumpet.   Here is what you did say: "So why can’t the 6th seal be released right at the abomination of desolation? "

You see, I know the 7th trumpet sounds to MARK the moment of the abomination. So when you are saying "abomination" you are really saying, "7th trumpet." Spock, no one can find "abomination" in Revelation is associating with desolation as Daniel and Jesus put it. John did not see it in the vision and so did not write of it. However, we CAN find it because Jesus told those in Judea to flee when the SEE IT, and that fleeing is in 12:6. Make no mistake, verse 12:6 is only going to be a second or two after the abomination. If you back up verse by verse looking for the abomination, you won't find it - but what you CAN find is a marker: the 7th trumpet. 

No, my friend, Rev. 12:5 is not the rapture. That is human imagination gone to seed. It is worse than imagining the rapture when JOHN was called up in  chapter 4. Please show us any words that related to 1 Thes. 4. Israel gave birth to the Messiah, and the Messiah gave birth to the church. Sorry, the great crowd too large to number (the raptured church) will have already been in heaven for 3.5 years! And now you have the church here for 3.5 years of God's wrath! You know better!