What is a "soul?"

[Retrobyter]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:36 AM, Josheb said:

 

Great compilation of scripture. Commendable. Somewhat overwrought though because the soul is simply the intersection of the body and God's life-giving breath. Says so write in Genesis 2. Deconstructions attempting to separate body, soul (and/or spirit) are often times misguided because to remove one is to negate the existence of the whole. There are no disembodied spirits in the Bible. There are no de-spirited bodies in the Bible. There is, instead, a one-to-one correlation between the body and the rest of the human. 

And there is no such thing an an "immortal soul" this side of the resurrection. The word "immortal" means "cannot die" or "not subject to death and God made it very clear in Eden the two sinless creatures could and would necessarily die if they disobeyed him AND Jesus made it quite clear the could and would be destroyed in hell (Mt. 10:28). Similarly, Paul made it quite clear that doesn't changed until we are raised incorruptible and........... immortal. 

Ya gotta die to become immortal. 

It is apportioned for man to die once and then be judged (Heb. 9:27). Those who sow to the flesh reap destruction and those who sow to the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8). It's a fairly plain, simple, and blunt binary condition. 

Shalom, Josheb.

I agree with most of what you said, but when you said "Ya gotta die to become immortal," that's not necessarily true and won't be true for the select, relatively few who are still alive when Yeshua` returns. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

I should have also mentioned that it still seems that you are making a distinction between "the body and the rest of the human." I don't. See, I don't believe that God's Word is saying that a human being is a tripartite being, nor do I see him or her as a bipartite being. I believe that we have been misled by Greek philosophy and the devil for CENTURIES!

Edited October 26, 2020 by Retrobyter
to add a thought

[Retrobyter]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:16 AM, Roar said:

I certainly am no expert by any means and am at best a babe in the woods. I offer the following only as food for thought for those more knowledgeable than myself. 

BIBLICAL ANTHROPOLOGY, PART 1

 by DrHeiser 

I’ve been thinking about getting into this topic for some time. The issue can be cast in two ways.

1.  In terms of biblical theology, is a human being composed of two parts (flesh/body + immaterial soul) or three parts (flesh.body + soul + spirit)?

2. In terms of recent neuro-scientific advances, is the soul something the brain “does”, or are “soul” and brain separate things?  This of course is the old — and now more new than ever — question of whether we possess an immaterial soul vs. scientific materialism, the notion that there is no soul — everything that is real is material, only that which is material is real.

This subject (mark my words here) will become one of this century’s great challenges to the church – not because there is no biblical answer, but because the church has few people giving it any serious thought (and those who are aren’t exactly bestselling authors in Christian bookstores).

This subject has importance to me because of a conference I’ve helped organize for 2010.  I’m one of the officers of the Pacific Northwest region of the Evangelical Theological Society. It was my job to come up with the topic for the 2010 regional meeting. The “mind-body” problem (“soul-body”) was my choice. I’ve lined up three speakers who specialize in this area. I want to be prepared for it as a listener, though. I’ve never taken the time to look through ALL the biblical data on the subject, so it’s time to do so. I’m not content with reading a journal article on it or what lexicons have. I need to do the grunt work, like I’ve done with other topics.  There’s no substitute for it.

Obviously, the first order of business to articulating a biblical worldview of what makes up a human being is to come to grips with what Scripture says (better, what it affirms). Toward that end, I’m giving you all some homework.

Part of the reason that this issue hasn’t been thought through very well is because it ain’t easy. I’ve attached three documents to get us started — to get us into the text.  You’ll see what I mean about this being work. Here they are:

1. All the occurrences of the word “nephesh” in the Hebrew Bible. It’s 50 pages. (Scroll down on first page).

2. All the occurrences of the word ruach in the absolute state (11 pages)

3. All the occurrences of the word ruach in the construct state, where the nomen rectum of the construct relationship is *not* a deity word (12 pages)

Let me explain the Hebrew grammar jargon in these last two items. The word ruach (“spirit”) is very common, so I don’t want to wade through a hundreds of examples needlessly. These two searches (using the Logos syntax databases) allow me to weed out occurrences of “spirit” that we don’t need – things like “spirit of God” don’t matter for the discussion, since we’re after “spirit” as it applies to humans (the makeup of a human being).

I’d like to invite you to go through all these with me. Here’s what I’m wondering — and looking for either confirmation or rejection and a different take on the data:

1. Does the OT teach that humans are body + soul (material and immaterial) or is it more nuanced?

2. Are nephesh and ruach, with respect to humans, synonyms or different things altogether?

Note that nephesh is a notoriously difficult word. It is used of conscious life, emotions, animal life, and even a corpse.

As F. Danker, the great lexicographer said, “the tasks of scholars are not for sissies.” Let’s get started!

I believe there are 7 total "BIBLICAL ANTHROPOLOGY Parts"
 

Ruach as it pertains to humans

Ruach (“breath”) in animals – Gen 6:17; 7:15

Only place you have וּח ַת־ר ֨מַשׁ ְנ ִis Gen 7:22 (all life)

Only place where you have יּיםִ֑ח ַמתַ֣שׁ ְנ ִis Gen 2:7 (humans)

Taking the above two together, ruach is parallel to chayyim (life) – and so ruach = life principle there; nephesh is also used this way – life principle

תַ֣שׁ ְנ ִas “life” / “breath” (physical function often) – Deut 20:16; Josh 10:40;

Josh 11:11; 1 Kings 15:29; 1 Kings 17:17; Isa 42:5 (also has ruach); Isa 57:16 (also has ruach)

תַ֣שׁ ְנ ִof Gen 2:7 used to parallel ruach – Job 32:8 (and God does not have lungs and doesn’t need to breathe; so this מתַ֣שׁ ְנ = ִlife source)

Ruach- elohim in parallel with nishmat Shadday = Job 33:4

“life” principle; maybe just breath – Gen 45:27; Zech 12:1 (hearkens back to Gen 2:7); Job 12:10 (also has nephesh); 1 Kings 10:5; Ezek 37:5-6, 8 (reading the whole narrative, seems like “wind” is the point); Psa 135:17 (here ruach is clearly breath); Job 7:7 (life is equated with breathing – death, the lack thereof); Eccl 3:19 – animals and humans all have the same ruach (life/breath); Eccl 8:8;

Emotions – Numb 5:14; 5:30; Eccl 10:4; 2 Chron 18:22; Gen 26:35 (idiom); 1 Sam 1:15 (parallels nephesh here as well); Job 7:11 (also has nephesh); Isa 54:6; 57:15; Prov 14:29;

Enthusiasm / will / decision capacity / attitude / humility – Isa 19:3; Isa 57:15; Isa 61:3; Jer 51:11; Hagg 1:14; Psa 76:13; Job 32:18; Prov 18:14; Ezra 1:1; Exod 6:9; Num 14:24; Josh 2:11; Josh 5:1; Isa 26:9 (also has nephesh); Isa 29:24; Ezek 11:19; 18:31; Ezek 21:12; 36:26; Psa 34:19; 51:19; Prov 15:13; 16:19; 17:22; 17:27; 29:23; Eccl 7:8;

Abilities / “know-how” – Exod 28:3 (providential enabling or “a spirit” inhabiting?); Jer 10:14; 51:17 (idols lack this; contrasted with stupidity; see also Hab 2:19); Dan 5:12; 6:4; 1 Chron 28:12;

Divine enabling (temporary) or divine prompting – Deut 34:9; Isa 11:2; Isa 28:6; Numb 11:17; 27:18

Evil influence – Hos 5:4; Zech 13:2

Disembodied “soul” – Eccl 3:21; Eccl 12:7 (because it “goes” somewhere after death);

-----------

Metaphorical and little use: Isa 42:1; God doesn’t have a soul (which is created) like we do. We wouldn’t want to suggest his is his essence in a literal way, since that sounds Gnostic – God gives us his essence as our spirit (spark of divinity idea).

God is spirit – disembodied immaterial essence – Isa 31:3

Rather “my soul” = inner life

 

 

 

 

 

Shalom, Roar. 

I've not forgotten you; please bear with me. It takes me a while to digest all of what you've written.

[Butch5]

On 10/20/2020 at 11:04 PM, warrior12 said:

Watchman Nee wrote a two volume book on this subject titled  " The spiritual Man ".    Not an easy read, but takes you to an in-depth composition of  "Man" and  from creation to living being.  Worth the read.   

This book can be downloaded free in pdf format , just google it.

Here is an excerpt from the beginning of Chapter 1.

"Spirit, Soul and Body
The ordinary concept of the constitution of human beings is dualistic—soul and body. According to this concept soul is the invisible inner spiritual part, while body is the visible outer corporal part. Though there is some truth to this, it is nevertheless inaccurate. Such an opinion comes from fallen man, not from God; apart from God’s revelation, no concept is dependable. That the body is man’s outward sheath is undoubtedly correct, but the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as though they are the same. Not only are they different in terms; their very natures differ from each other. The Word of God does not divide man into the two parts of soul and body. It treats man, rather, as tripartite—spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5.23 reads: “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” This verse precisely shows that the whole man is divided into three parts."

I would disagree that the Bible treats man as tripartite. I submit it treats him as a physical being as stated in the OP. It's man's dualistic ideas that interpret the Bible as having  man being tripartite.

[Butch5]

On 10/19/2020 at 6:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom to all.

Sometimes, people will refer to an "eternal soul" or an "immortal soul" and will think of the "soul" as the "real you," as opposed to a person's body, but I'd like to discuss this point. The ramifications of the definition of such a thing as a "soul" are HUGE! And, how a person defines "soul" will determine how one looks at our final destiny. What does God promise about the future and how does it involve a person's "soul?"

Let me start with a few basic points, and we'll go from there:

First, the words translated as "soul" in the Scriptures are ...

"nefesh," spelled "nun-(segol)-fei-(segol)-shin," in the Hebrew of the TANAKH (the OT), often written "nephesh," and ...

"psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta,"  in the Greek of the B'rit Chadashah (the NT), often written "psuche" or "psyche."

Here are the entries in the dictionaries of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that correspond directly or indirectly to the word "soul":

5315 nephesh [nefesh] (neh'-fesh). From naphash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naphash [naafash] (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

5590 psuche [psuchee] (psoo-khay'). From psucho [psuchoo]; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe, [zooee], which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay)
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

5594 psucho [psuchoo] (psoo-kho'). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneo [pneoo], which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aer [aeer], which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively) -- wax cold.

This introduces us to a few more terms we should consider (presented in the order is which they were introduced) for this discussion:

4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah). From pneo [pneoo]; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a ; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare psuche.

2222 zoe [zooee] (zo-ay'). From zao [zaoo]; life (literally or figuratively)
-- life(-time). Compare psuche [psuchee].

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach (too-akh'); wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

2416 chay (khah-ee'). From chayah; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively
-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

4154 pneo [pneoo] (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze
-- blow. Compare psucho [psuchoo].

109 aer [aeer] (ah-ayr'). From aemi [aeemi] (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. Respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
-- air. Compare psucho [psuchoo].

and,

2198 zao [zaoo] (dzah'-o). A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively)
-- life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

2421 chayah [chaayaah] (khaw-yaw). A primitive root (compare chavah, chayah); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive
-- keep (live, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

The first occurrence of the word nefesh is NOT about the creation of the Man, Adam. The first occurrences are on a day earlier in the Creation Week:

Genesis 1:20-23 (KJV)

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

The important verse is ...

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This verse doesn't say anything about the LORD God forming the BODY of the man; it says that He formed the MAN of the dust of the ground! Then, He breathed into the nostrils of the man a puff of life, and the MAN became a living SOUL! a living, AiR-BREATHING CREATURE!

Now, notice the curse for Adam's sin:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he [God] said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

God didn't say his BODY was made of dust; He said to Adam, "YOU shall return unto the ground, for out of the ground YOU were taken!" He concludes "YOU are dust, and to dust YOU shall return!"

I agree with your statement wholeheartedly, However, I disagree with Strong's definition of Psuche. It doesn't mean spirit. 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/26/2020 at 1:25 PM, Butch5 said:

I agree with your statement wholeheartedly, However, I disagree with Strong's definition of Psuche. It doesn't mean spirit. 

Shalom, Butch5.

You're quite right; "psuchee" (I use an "ee" for an eta, as opposed to an "e" for epsilon), doesn't mean "spirit"; it means "an air-breather," same as the Hebrew word "nefesh." It's the Greek word "pneuma" that is translated as "spirit." It's true meaning, however, is "wind." It's only by analogy that it means a "forceful breath," like a child trying to make a "wind" by blowing.

[Butch5]

On 10/28/2020 at 7:23 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Butch5.

You're quite right; "psuchee" (I use an "ee" for an eta, as opposed to an "e" for epsilon), doesn't mean "spirit"; it means "an air-breather," same as the Hebrew word "nefesh." It's the Greek word "pneuma" that is translated as "spirit." It's true meaning, however, is "wind." It's only by analogy that it means a "forceful breath," like a child trying to make a "wind" by blowing.

I agree!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to all.

The real entrenchment of the tripartite view of mankind is seen in the death of a believer. I'm reminded of all the words accompanying the death of Billy Graham.  Almost EVERYONE one heard in the weeks that followed talked about how he already was in "Heaven" and enjoying the bliss with loved ones gone on before him.

I don't subscribe to that belief. I believe that we stay in the ground until the Resurrection. After all, we're not promised "going to Heaven"; we're promised the Resurrection! THAT'S our "Blessed Hope!" Then, after we are resurrected into new, superhuman ("spiritual")  bodies of flesh and bone, like that of our Master, who rose ahead of us and was transported through the skies to the New Jerusalem currently still under construction above the sky, we as resurrected "souls" - resurrected "air-breathers" - will live and reign with the Messiah over Yhudah, over Israel, and nation by nation over the world, as He builds the worldwide empire of His Father, subduing the nations until He is "King of kings and Lord of lords" during the Millennium, the Thousand Years after the Messiah Yeshua` returns. Then, after the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium, Yeshua` shall turn over His worldwide Kingdom to the Father who will then reign over all the earth forever (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). His Son, Yeshua` the Messiah, shall remain the King over Israel forever (Luke 1:30-33).

But, just try to tell others that position! You will find that people ADAMANTLY resist the simplicity of this position, opting for the "Heaven" theory.

Scriptures DO mention a "third heaven," but not in the sense that some carry it today. Paul said,

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

However, the word "heaven" here is not "epouranos" or its adjective form, "epouranios." It's just simply the word "ouranos." And, "ouranos" means the "sky."

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Here's the Greek of this passage, if anyone doubts this:

Pros Korinthious B 12:1-4 (UBS The Greek New Testament, transliterated)

1 Kuchasthai dei; ou sumferon men, eleusomai de eis optasias kai apokalupseis Kuriou. 2 Oida anthroopon en Christo pro etoon dekatessaroon - eite en soomati ouk oida, eite ektos tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden - harpagenta ton toiouton heoos tritou ouranou. 3 Kai oida ton toiouton anthroopon - eite en soomati eite hooris tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden - 4 hoti heerpagee eis ton paradeison kai eekousen arrest hreemata ha ouk exon anthroopoo laleesai.

The Greek word "harpagenta" comes from the root, "harpazoo," spelled "alpha (with rough breathing)-rho-pi-alpha-zeta-omega" (the omega represented by "oo"), and means "seized" or "snatched away." It has NO implied meaning of "up" within any part of the word.

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications)
-- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

And the Greek preposition, heoos, doesn't mean "up"; it means "until" or "'til" or "till":

2193 heoos (heh'-oce). Of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place) -- even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).

Now, this verse, 2 Corinthians 12:2 is not the ONLY place that uses a "third heaven"; there's also 2 Peter 3:3-13 where Peter said,

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they WILLINGLY are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

7 But the heavens (Greek: hoi ... ouranoi = "the skies") and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in allholy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (Greek: kainous ouranous [accusative plural] = "new skies") and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thus, Peter's "third heaven(s)" are the skies around the New Earth! Here's the gist of what he said:

1st heavens = the skies before the Flood
The Flood
2nd heavens = the skies after the Flood and before the Fire
The Fire
3rd heavens = the skies after the Fire

It's NOT "3rd heaven(s)" SPATIALLY; it's the "3rd heaven(s)" CHRONOLOGICALLY - the "3rd heaven(s)" IN TIME! Thus, Paul was snatched away INTO THE FUTURE! There, he heard things he was not allowed to repeat, but he also was given information ABOUT THE FUTURE that he could share with us! This is the same as ANY prophet of God experiences!

The word "paradise" in 2 Corinthians 12:4 is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word "paradeison," not a translation! "Paradeison" is the accusative form of the word "paradeisos":

G:3857 paradeisos (par-ad-i'-os). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise")
-- paradise.

H:6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park
-- forest, orchard.

The Greek word is only found in 3 places: Here in 2 Corinthians 12:4, Luke 23:43, and Revelation 2:7:

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying,

"If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying,

"Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss!" 

42 And he said unto Jesus,

"Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

43 And Jesus said unto him,

"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Yeshua` wasn't going to go into a long, drawn out discourse of what the truth was about what he was about to experience; He just told him the "bottom line": the next thing he would know after death was that he would be with Yeshua` in the park of God within the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 2:1-7 (KJV)

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

"These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

And, we're told about where the species of tree called "the Tree of Life" will be found:

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it (the New Jerusalem), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Therefore, this Paradise - this Park - either is the New Jerusalem itself or is within the New Jerusalem! And, the tree of life is not just one tree; it's a SPECIES of tree called "the tree of life." This kind of tree is found growing on both sides of the river of water of life that flows in the middle of the street of the New Jerusalem. This is why I prefer to think that the Park of God is WITHIN the New Jerusalem. I also believe that, after it lands upon the New Earth, that species of tree will be allowed and even encouraged to grow around the river of the water of life as it flows from the middle of the street, through the gates, and onto the New Earth.

The three places where the Hebrew word "pardeec" is found are Nehemiah 2:8; Ecclesiastes 2:5; and Song of Solomon 4:13, translated as "forest," "orchards," or "orchard," respectively. It's a PARK OF TREES, as Gan-`Eden (the Garden of Eden) was!

I hope everyone can understand what I've written here, and reads it with an open mind.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/24/2020 at 12:48 AM, Charlie744 said:

The Retrobyter, this is an interesting topic and I started to think about it when I saw your post.

If you do not mind, I would like to mention some thoughts on this that WILL be very different than those already posted to this topic... they are just some “thinking out loud” if you will. 

So, God made Adam out the dust and then breathe into him and he became a “living soul”. What does this mean?

I think it means more than just Him breathing air into his lungs. Earlier, God created the animals/birds, etc., who also breath but He did not breathe air into them. 

Shalom, Charlie744.

Thank you for your thoughts. I do greatly appreciate you taking the time to share them with us.

Now, I do NOT lightly disagree with any brother and child of the Living God, but I feel that you are making a conclusion here that you are not allowed logically to make. We who try to teach others absolutely MUST guard ourselves against dichotomous thinking, that is, black-or-white thinking. While there are grounds for making statements that begin with "all are ..." or "none is ...," there are also statements that begin with "Some are .." or "most are ..." or "few are ...." 

You've made an assumption in this last statement that you cannot prove. An argument from silence is a logical fallacy. Just because the Scriptures do not say that God "breathed air" into the animals and birds, we don't know that He did not! All we DO know is that God's Word said that He DID breathe air into the nostrils of the man.

All we can say about the air-breathing animals and birds is that WE DON'T KNOW whether He took the same careful consideration to be sure that their lives were begun.

On 10/24/2020 at 12:48 AM, Charlie744 said:

We know that God made Adam in His image, unlike any other living being so His breathing into Adam is something very special. 

With this statement, I can agree.

On 10/24/2020 at 12:48 AM, Charlie744 said:

Even before the earth or the heavens was “The Word”. So perhaps God breathed “His Word” into Adam and this created a “living soul” - not just a living creature.

No, here you're not taking into consideration that the word for "soul," "nefesh," is also used for the animals! How one translates these words into English can be where the reader is misled. Genesis 1:20, 21, 24 and 30 also contain the SAME WORD when speaking of animals:

Genesis 1:20, 21 (KJV)

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Hebrew: sherets nefesh chayyaah = "an-abundance of-air-breathing-[things] living"), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (Hebrew: kal nefesh hachayyaah = "all/every air-breathing-[thing] the-living") that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:24 (KJV)

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature (Hebrew: nefesh chayyaah) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so.

Genesis 1:29-30 (KJV)

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life (Hebrew: asher bow nefesh chayyaah = "which-[has] in-it an-air-breather living"), I have given every green herb for meat":

and it was so.

The role of the translator GREATLY AFFECTS the interpretations of the theologian!

And, the theology of the translator GREATLY AFFECTS the translations of that translator!

These are two human contributions into what one calls the "Word of God" that may introduce error, although the original manuscripts, written by the hand of God or through the prophet of God, were without error!

On 10/24/2020 at 12:48 AM, Charlie744 said:

Now we have God and Adam in Eden together. Later, both Adam and Eve fell from grace and were removed from Eden at which time they “lost their soul”, if you will. They became a “living being” since they disobeyed God and He could not exist in the presence of anything unholy. They lost their soul - they lost their “Word” given to them by God in the garden.

This is confusing nonsense. Upon what IN THE SCRIPTURES do you base this opinion?

On 10/24/2020 at 12:48 AM, Charlie744 said:

Now we find mankind on the other side of Eden and we need or want to get back there. The only way to get there is to regain our “Word” or holiness before God is able to be with us. 

God gives Moses His Word to show us the way back. Unfortunately, we all now understand just how impossible it is for us to keep His Law and be cleansed. 

God will send The Messiah to earth and pay the price for our sins. This is the only path to salvation. It does not mean the Law was done away with but there now exists a “Word” that we can offer or say which will wipe away our sins and restore our “soul”. 

Now Paul might be telling us in Thess. that he hopes that we have preserved our body, our soul (belief in Jesus) and become once again a “Living Soul”. 

But there is one thing that has changed since Eden where there were the two components- dust and His Word = Living Soul. And this would be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not necessary for God to form this “Living Soul”. But on this side of Eden we MUST have the Holy Spirit with us / inside us in order to be successful in bringing His Word or Soul back into us and place us in the same status as we were in Eden. 

So Paul is saying that he hopes all three are working together to “make us whole” again WHEN the Lord returns. 

Should we die before He returns our body returns to the ground, His Word returns to Him, and the Spirit continues forever, of course. 

When Jesus returns, for those who died in Christ, He will return His Word into our resurrected bodies and, once again be able to be in His presence for eternity. 

For those who have rejected the Holy Spirit, and have NOT died in Christ, their bodies will also be resurrected but because His “Word or Soul” will not be found within their body (rejected), they are not able to be in the presence of God and will perish at His site. 

Just some thoughts... look forward to your response, Happy Sabbath, Charlie 

Still, you are going with the assumption that "the Word" was introduced into the original man as something more than the mere air the man was breathing, but there is absolutely NOTHING in the text that would suggest that! This is JUST LIKE the evolutionist tries to merge his take on science into the Scriptures! It's a THEORY, but it's just not there in the text! There's absolutely no support from the Word of God for such a belief. And, that makes it PURE CONJECTURE.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Charlie744.

Thank you for your thoughts. I do greatly appreciate you taking the time to share them with us.

Now, I do NOT lightly disagree with any brother and child of the Living God, but I feel that you are making a conclusion here that you are not allowed logically to make. We who try to teach others absolutely MUST guard ourselves against dichotomous thinking, that is, black-or-white thinking. While there are grounds for making statements that begin with "all are ..." or "none is ...," there are also statements that begin with "Some are .." or "most are ..." or "few are ...." 

You've made an assumption in this last statement that you cannot prove. An argument from silence is a logical fallacy. Just because the Scriptures do not say that God "breathed air" into the animals and birds, we don't know that He did not! All we DO know is that God's Word said that He DID breathe air into the nostrils of the man.

All we can say about the air-breathing animals and birds is that WE DON'T KNOW whether He took the same careful consideration to be sure that their lives were begun.

Thanks for your thoughts... I certainly agree there is nothing indicating whether He did or did not... but this is my opinion... I don’t believe He created the animals in a similar manner... man He formed in His image, and the animals He created not formed from the earth and not with His Hands. He did breathe into man... nothing indicates this was done to any animal.... 

Why is the “argument of silence” given more weight that He MAY have also breathed into the animals than He did not (my opinion)? 

Quote

With this statement, I can agree.

No, here you're not taking into consideration that the word for "soul," "nefesh," is also used for the animals! How one translates these words into English can be where the reader is misled. Genesis 1:20, 21, 24 and 30 also contain the SAME WORD when speaking of animals:

Genesis 1:20, 21 (KJV)

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Hebrew: sherets nefesh chayyaah = "an-abundance of-air-breathing-[things] living"), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (Hebrew: kal nefesh hachayyaah = "all/every air-breathing-[thing] the-living") that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:24 (KJV)

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature (Hebrew: nefesh chayyaah) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so.

Genesis 1:29-30 (KJV)

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life (Hebrew: asher bow nefesh chayyaah = "which-[has] in-it an-air-breather living"), I have given every green herb for meat":

and it was so.

The role of the translator GREATLY AFFECTS the interpretations of the theologian!

And, the theology of the translator GREATLY AFFECTS the translations of that translator!

These are two human contributions into what one calls the "Word of God" that may introduce error, although the original manuscripts, written by the hand of God or through the prophet of God, were without error!

This is confusing nonsense. Upon what IN THE SCRIPTURES do you base this opinion?

Ok..... perhaps I was not taking the time here but I was offering my opinion on their change in status... no, this is not written.  In this particular case I was THINKING about what God has done; created man in His own image, He breathed of Himself into man (and no, this is not said in Genesis, but for ME, I certainly believe God didn’t just breathe air into man’s lungs-it was so much more and so much more than giving life to air breathing animals). This “Word” that I believe He breathed into man was special and Holy (since it came from God’s Own Lips / Mouth, and again, a significant departure from the manner He created the animals). This breath, this air breathed into man, in my opinion was another way He separates man from the creation of the animals (He certainly could have created man exactly as the animals but He wanted us to see just how special He made us). And when we disobeyed Him, that “special thing” that He breathed into us was now removed. I have read many who have said that before the fall man had this outer glow or covering perhaps similar to what an angel might look like... but after the fall, this covering left them. My THOUGHTS focused on this event - perhaps this “inner Holiness” that God breathed into man (which I believe was not simple air), was lost. It left man AND since God could not be in the presence of anything UnHoly, He had to remove them from Eden. Now, we are physically separated from His presence and we have to find our way back. And the ONLY way for that to happen is to once again bring His Word back WITHIN us. And the only way to get His Word IN us is by accepting Jesus as our Messiah and His Holy Spirit Will once again be IN us. Unfortunately for us, it will not be perfected until His second coming AND this outer covering will be restored as we meet Him in the air. In Eden we had this outer covering (immortality and His Word internally). We will be once again be made in His image in two stages; Holy Spirit (Pentecost) while on earth and our immortality at the resurrection of those in Jesus. 

Quote

Still, you are going with the assumption that "the Word" was introduced into the original man as something more than the mere air the man was breathing, but there is absolutely NOTHING in the text that would suggest that! This is JUST LIKE the evolutionist tries to merge his take on science into the Scriptures! It's a THEORY, but it's just not there in the text! There's absolutely no support from the Word of God for such a belief. And, that makes it PURE CONJECTURE.

I can not disagree with your statement here, but I am attempting to understand not only those things actually written but those things not written. I believe that what happens at the end will mirror what happened in the beginning. God’s Plan of Salvation is to restore man with Him. For me, I enjoy trying to understand what He has written AND think about all the things not written— why did He do or say this? Why didn’t He do or say that? Here is an example that might be acceptable to you: For years (>50 years), I always wanted to know what Jesus wrote on the ground when the Jews / Pharisees brought the women found/caught in adultry. NO ONE knows what He wrote YET it does not prevent many to offer their thoughts and opinions. The Scriptures are silent on this, but it should not prevent us from contemplating on what He may have written. And I think the most important question is why God left this out... He could easily have told us... what possible reason would He have to keep this from us... He knows we desperately want the know.... God does not play games with us (not sure, but I think in Amos there is a verse or two that speaks about God that He will never do anything without first telling us... no surprises if you will), so why did He not tell us? 

Do you think He wants us to search the Scriptures and find the reason as opposed to simply telling us everything? I do... and these things that require us to try and discover and bring Scripture with Scripture are the BEST feelings one could ever feel (my opinion). Now I can ASSURE you that I have the answer to this open question!!! 

But the answer came without ANY ability or talent or luck or whatever on MY part! It was so complicated yet simple when it was revealed. This is just an example of why I try to think about the verses that may not be as clear, or has ALL the answers written in the Scriptures In THE SAME verse, or chapter or even the same book.... but I do believe ALL the answers are there to be found at one level or another or laterally- within the 66 Books. 

I apologize for obviously upsetting you based on my earlier thoughts/comments... that was not my intention!

Charlie

[JohnD]

Removed to begin my own thread on the subject.

Edited November 25, 2020 by JohnD