Why good men go to hell?

[Who me]

Which is what I have already said.

[Your closest friendnt]

49 minutes ago, MomBearTo4 said:

Romans 1:20 says that all people can see God through His handiwork of creation and have the opportunity to respond to that, so no man is without excuse.  -- "For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse."

Keep in mind something, Paul knew that the rest of the world understand that the world was created by some God and they attribute the creation of the world and the origin of Man to their own Gods, with stories that somehow parallel the events that are described in the bible.  

Paul all his life even as a child knew that their neighbors including the Egyptians had their own Gods and attribute to them the Creation.  The Greeks, and the Romans and the Hindus, they also had their own versions of how the world was created. 

There were not "atheists" the time of Paul as they are now in our times, who say their is no God. 

And attribute the creation to some events even the man's, on some explanations that it does not envolved any God at all. 

Paul was arguing with the Gentiles who they were telling him: we know who created the world and told him about how their Gods created the world in their own religions.  

Paul did not spend his time arguing those things as people do today. 

Paul informed polytechnic Nations about a God who had a Heavenly Inheritance for those who believe in him after they die.

The Greeks and the Romans welcome that the God of Paul had the Heaven as his Inheritance and not only for himself but for anyone who believes in him. 

The notion that when they die they will not be separated from their God as in Jesus Christ and that will be with him in Heaven and not in Hades, and that will be with Jesus Christ forever secured in him, it was like music to their ears. 

In their cultures the Greeks had epic stories of how the Greek heroes try to take from Hades the Place of Captivity for it was not yet decided that the people who were there were his. That had to be decided in Jesus Christ at the time of and after his death when the good news of the Gospel was preached to them by Jesus Christ Christ himself who went to them after his death on the Cross to preach the Gospel to all and give them of his Spirit of his life giving Spirit , making them alive to him and God, whom he took out from the place of the dead at the time of his resurrection.  

Paul teach them how this happened. 

Keep in mind that they were Jewish Synagogues in every big commercial city and Port, and many people had familiarized themselves with the God of the Jews and the events that took place in Egypt were recorded in the Egyptian historical records, and by the historians of the known cultures of that time.

The Roman culture as an example and the Greek culture and others. 

Those Nations were polytheistic a safe environment to preach the Gospel.

Their was no religious prosecution in their Nations as it was in a hostile monotheistic environment like the Jewish culture. 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Sower]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

You understand I am not the judge of your salvation? Nor the judge of your experience? We might parse it out measured by God's word but you can do that on your own and it's bound to have limits based on your current knowledge, understanding, and maturity in Christ so any agreement or disagreement you might have with anyone making that appraisal with you is bound to be limited and temporary. You won't be the same guy next week, next month, next year that you are today. All those things I just listed will presumably increase, change for the better. So then will the appraisal also change. 

God's word is sovereign even over human experience and our perceptions thereo

Thanks Josheb for you lengthy concise reply. I appreciate it.
I did not expect you to go into such detail......
I have two long time friends who have literally hounded me about their Calvinistic views, and their belief that I needed to adhere to them. I pray always for the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to all light/truth, and not be dogmatic. It has lessened our fellowship that I do not accept their doctrines.
God is sovereign. God is light. I am still learning, and always will be.
But I need God's confirmation to change my thinking.
If I never entertained new 'light', changed thinking,  I would still be Roman catholic.

[Frits]

On 1/16/2021 at 12:06 AM, Josheb said:

That's what God does! He saves sinners! How do you not know this? 

There is a very serious and deeply profound hole in the theology - any theology - that doesn't have God as King over ALL. God is King over all things, even sin. God is The Sovereign and because He is the Almighty Creator as Sovereign He is sovereign over all. This is axiomatic. There's is nothing over which He does not rule. 

Including sin. 

Sin is not an obstacle for God. 

God's kingdom includes sinners. God's kingdom includes the throne of judgment and the fiery lake. These aren't sitting outside His kingdom. These are His kingdom! God is glorified when He metes out the just recompense for sin among those who will not believe AND He is glorified when He acts with grace and saves those who do not deserve His grace. 

I don't have a problem with Michael carrying the siner Moses, Frits. 

It is your theology that has created that conflict. And based upon a comment in the last post I received it's not actually a "theology," it is just your opinion. In other words, it's your opinion that has created the conflict within you and between you and God's word whereby God's word can't be reconciled with itself. 

There isn't a single thing I've posted that I can't back up with explicit statements found in the Bible.

You, however, conflate friendship with goodness. You conflate ontological goodness with qualitative goodness. It's not even clear you understand the difference. Just because a person does something good does not mean they are good people. And I did give you several examples from both scripture and real life. 

So you can't say I didn't and haven't explain it. I did. 

The problem is the attempted shifting of the onus. You'd like to put this on me when the reality is...

• You can't show a single verse where God explicitly calls anyone God after Genesis 1:31.
  You conflate behavioral righteousness with ontological goodness even though you cannot provide a single verse where scripture itself says any such equivalence is correct. It's just your assumption; your opinion.
• You won't acknowledge the truth and facts of Romans 3:10-11 or 3:23 or 6:23 or Eph. 2:10-11; or any of the passages showing the sins of every single man you've named (excepting Enoch). You could acknowledge these truths but you haven't. We'd be having a much different conversation if I'd ever read, "Yes, scripture is correct when it states, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'."
• You won't reconcile your position with the verses I've broached. What you've done is "scripture competition," My scriptures are better than your scriptures! It's a failed method because all scripture speaks cohesively with a single voice and never contradicts itself.
  You give me opinion. I give you scripture plainly read and reconciled with itself.

Michael carried a sinner because God showed that sinner His grace, not because that sinner deserved it. He was made righteous through his faith in God, not by any inherent ontological goodness he possessed because all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory  and because all have sinned none are good. They may have faith and act faithfully but behavior is not ontology. 

Moses was a sinner. 
Moses was carried by Michael. 

Not a problem for me. Both are true. 

It's your position that has created a problem. You require a person be good before being saved, AND you treat that goodness as causal. That's a big Fail. 

 

So here's what I am going to suggest you do: Pick three godly men whose opinions you respect and ask them about this idea all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and how sinners can be saved without being good. Listen to what they say. 

 

 

.

@Josheb

(Jocheb) "There is a very serious and deeply profound hole in the theology - any theology - that doesn't have God as King over ALL. God is King over all things, even sin."

What you describe here concerns the sphere of power of God. The sphere of power of the Most High holy God is unrestricted. He is Lord and God over all times, over death and life, over all places and over all creatures, angels and men.
But that is very different from God's Kingdom. There is no room for sin or sinners in His Kingdom!
I can demonstrate that your statement is completely incorrect, with the following Bible texts:

(Jocheb) "God's kingdom includes sinners."  

(wrong!)

(Josheb) "God's kingdom includes the throne of judgment and the firy lake."  

(wrong!)

(Josheb) "Including sin. These aren't sitting outside His kingdom. These are His kingdom!"

(wrong!    wrong!  wrong!)

De Bijbel leert ons:

'And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.' (Rev.21:27)

(good)

'And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it' (Isa.35:8)

(good)

Just as Adam and Eve had to leave Paradise, sinners remain outside of God's Kingdom!

'For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.' (Rev.22:15)

Your second statement, that the lake of fire is part of God's Kingdom, is also one big
(philosophical) fallacy!

(Josheb) "God's kingdom includes sinners. God's kingdom includes the throne of judgment and the fiery lake."

(wrong!)

De Bijbel leert:

'And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire' (Mr.9:47)

(Josheb) "Michael carried a sinner" (wrong!)

(Josheb) "He was made righteous through his faith in God" (good)

You see Josheb, you turn around at the last minute!
You say it yourself now: "Moses was justified by God." So he was not a sinner when he was carried by the angel Michael!
This is the only correct order in God's way of salvation.
That was always my argument: God justifies man by faith in Him, and from that moment on that man has become a righteous person, and therefore GOOD.
That, applies as in my example, represents all the righteous of the Old and New Testaments, including Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, and all born-again Christians.  Hallelujah!

When Moses was carried by Michael after his death, he had already amply proved his faith in the Lord God, and God found him righteous.
The righteous people may enter the Kingdom of God, not sinners!
Because once in the Kingdom of God they have access to the Tree of Eternal Life.  And for that reason God has said that sinners must leave Paradise that they may NOT eat of that Tree of Life.  (read Gen.3: 22)

(Josheb) "and because all have sinned none are good."

With this phrase "none are good" you also include all born again Christians, who have been there from Pentecost until today.
In doing so, you ignore the redeeming Sacrifice that the Lord Jesus has brought for us!
You call all people sinners, including those who have been delivered from their sins by the Lord Jesus.
That's a slap in the face of God the Father!

(Josheb)
"Moses was a sinner. Moses was carried by Michael."

Moses is a righteous and NOT a sinner!  In Jude 1:9, the devil also disputed this fact!
But God is good and His good judgment on Moses is carried out by angel Michael, despite the devil's protest.
So you take the stand of the devil!

(Josheb) "You require a person be good before being saved"

In all my posts, on all forums, you cannot find a single sentence where I said or suggested that at all.
(Copy/paste please)

Your assumptions lead you to call God's righteous people sinners! You are telling lies about them, and now about me.

God bless you.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Frits

[exrockstar]

11 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

1 John 2:2: " And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but for the sins of the whole world"

In John 4:42 Christ is the "Saviour of the world". That doesn't mean He will save the whole world from their sins. And so in the whole world He is the propitiation for the sins of those whom He plans to save. 

" Neither is there salvation in any other : forfor there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

"Propitiation " simply means "atonement". If Christ makes atonement for your sins, they are completely covered in His blood, and it is 100% guaranteed. 

 

I think we’re saying the same thing - I’m confused. I didn’t say he will save the whole world. He did die for the sins of the world but there has to be acknowledgment from the unbeliever via gospel. It is a two way street.

Edited January 17, 2021 by exrockstar

[Your closest friendnt]

On 1/16/2021 at 10:47 PM, Walter Goraj jr said:

1 John 2:2: " And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but for the sins of the whole world"

In John 4:42 Christ is the "Saviour of the world". That doesn't mean He will save the whole world from their sins. And so in the whole world He is the propitiation for the sins of those whom He plans to save. 

" Neither is there salvation in any other : forfor there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

"Propitiation " simply means "atonement". If Christ makes atonement for your sins, they are completely covered in His blood, and it is 100% guaranteed. 

 

There is twist in the way you present the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

There is a deceiving twist to it, and this is what is called in the world a deceiving twist, it is to withhold vital information you have and you do not want people to know.

And this is your statement: 

"He is the propitiation for the sins of those he plans to saved."

Further making reference to Acts 4: 12, is suggesting that Peter should have included in his Gospel message that

"Jesus Christ died only for those he plans to saved",

The scripture reference do not support the statement above, rather opposite, do you have any righteousness to support that statement? 

That Jesus Christ only selectively died for those he planned to Saved from the foundation of the world it is not what the disciples of Jesus Christ taught. 

So you have concluded that God knows who they are by their names, by their family name, by their DNA and other various forms of identification, this also cannot be supported by the teachings of the disciples. 

That statement above encourages people to say that theyv are not responsible for not believing, and they will count God responsible for their not believing. 

How can God judge them and find them responsible for not believing in Jesus Christ. 

And they must live their lives knowing that the were predestined to be lost. 

You are telling people to live their lives without any hope and their families to know that some of them, it is from God to live in that hopeless state of being. 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[DeighAnn]

20 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

There is twist in the way you present the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

There is a deceiving twist to it, and this is what is called in the world a deceiving twist, it is to withhold vital information you have and you do not want people to know.

And this is your statement: 

"He is the propitiation for the sins of those he plans to saved."

Further making reference to Acts 4: 12, is suggesting that Peter should have included in his Gospel message that "Jesus Christ died only for those he plans to saved",

That Jesus Christ only selectively died for those he planned to Saved from the foundation of the world. 

So you have concluded that God knows who they are by their names, by their family name, by their DNA and other various forms of identification.  

So we have the following situation and this is; 

When we present the Gospel we should include what we know that God will saved only those he plans to Save and this is for clarity reasons, and for giving the opportunity to those who heard the Gospel to take note of whether they have believe or not at the conclusion of the massage, and if they find them selves not believing they can know that they are not included in the plan of God to be Saved. 

That explains why they do not believe. 

They will say that I am not responsible for not believing. 

And they must live their lives knowing that the plan of God it was for them to be included in the "perishing state of being", predestined to be lost.

You are telling people to live their lives without any hope and their families to know that some of them, it is from God to live in that hopeless state of being. 

Nice.  I agree that teaching "predestined no hope" is not following how God told us to go forth.  

YES, many are called, the  "whomsoever would"

SALVATION opened to all.   

Every sin repented of washed in the saving Blood

Teaching as God commands us to teach, not by the letter but by the Spirit. 


I believe the deeper truths should remain deep until one is led to dig in that direction, and that come after the milk.  But you know Satan,  anything to cause confusion and doubt,  stumbling blocks for the lambs.     



 

[Alive]

Its our job to be lights and/or to preach the Gospel. Its God's job to open ears and draw a man to Himself. Trust the message and trust God.

[Frits]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Did Noah sin by getting drunk, and getting so drunk that his own son could sodomize him? It's a simple yes or no question.

Did Moses murder a man? Yes or no? 
Is murder wrong? Is it a sin? Yes or no?
Did Moses claim for himself the miracle at Miramar or not? Yes or no?
Was doing so wrong? Was it a sin? Yes or no?
Was it not what kept him out of the promised land? Yes or no?

Was Peter acting hypocritical or not? Yes or no?
Did it mislead others or not? Yes or no?
Is hypocrisy wrong? Is it a sin? Yes or no?
Is misleading others (willfully, knowingly) wrong? Is it sin? Yes or no? 

 

There should not be any "No," answers to any of the above questions. 

Let's start there. Let's see if we can find some agreement. 

@Josheb

You claim that sin and sinners may enter the Kingdom of God!
This shows that the foundation of all your statements is false.
Our discussion on this topic is therefore over.

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, Frits said:

@Josheb

You claim that sin and sinners may enter the Kingdom of God!
This shows that the foundation of all your statements is false.
Our discussion on this topic is therefore over.

Brother--I suggest that you do some research into what the 'Mercy Seat' was all about and consider carefully what is conveyed in the following scriptures for us by God:

Rom. 3:21 (NAS95S)   But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, ²² even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; ²⁵ whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; ²⁶ for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Now--if you think that you are sinless, then this will be of no use to you.

1John 1:5 (NAS95S)    This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. ⁶ If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; ⁷ but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. ⁸ If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. ⁹ If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ¹⁰ If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

John and the Holy Spirit is communicating to the redeemed saints of the Most High God.