No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

@Charlie744 I hope you'll forgive me for  not quoting the post where you responded to mine, though I appreciate it. I am concerned that by the time I find it again I'll loose my main train of thought.

Just to attempt to help you understand a little better why I was questioning death with regard to how it is viewed, my "hang up" with death is Adam and Eve could make babies before the fall correct? What are the implications or procreation IF they had never sinned? How many immortal people would we have on the earth if NO ONE EVER DIED?  It would seem the earth would be OVERRUN with people.

One possible solution to that apparent dilemma is there might have still been a "life cycle" in place before men were told they would "die". While DEATH is the cost of sin, maybe something else was in place where we went from one state to another? I'll just leave it at that now because it probably isn't directly relevant to the topic at this time. Suffice it to say that presently, DEATH is our punishment for sin which means that PRESENTLY it is NOT NATURAL.

This is where I think we agree, because NOT BEING NATURAL has BIG implications at least for me.

If it(death) ISN'T natural or wasn't INTENDED ( and we know it originally wasn't), then what happens is something out of the original plan. This makes the idea that souls are at rest more feasible , for me especially in light of other scriptures.

God's original plan was for  WHOLE complete human beings to live in HIS presence on this earth..Not separated ones.

The idea of the separated human being composed of a "holy spirit" and a body is interesting the way you worded it. Especially the part about the spirit part of men not being aware. I think I was looking for this and couldn't find a way to synthesize it with what was happening.

I would only say that when you say HOLY SPIRIT it might be easy for some to misunderstand since that term is used often in other contexts. For me simply to say spirit is good enough. Thanks for your explanation.

@DeighAnn Thank you for your descriptions of how you see this! I'm not there yet. I can't get past the other scriptures that expressly say rest and sleep when talking about the dead in Christ. I'll tell you why I see it the way I do so far- Because like Charlie describes we can be with God and not aware presently. It's really as SIMPLE as that for me. Yes absent from the body for the Christian IS present with God. Yet where do we read of conversations taking place between risen saints in heaven? A few saints  were translated to heaven. They are a minority.

I am of the mindset the story of Lazarus IS a parable.

@miss muffet I have a lot of respect for Got Questions.org, yet I feel this has to be said, they don't always get it right.

 

 

Got questions doesn't get it right or people give the Word of God their own meaning rather than what it is intended. 

[luigi]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

But what is it telling you? 

Basically, Isaiah 26:19-21 and correlating data in Revelation 6:9-11 tell me that the saints are going to experience the great tribulation, with many being murdered under the beasts systems, and as is further confirmed in Revelation 18:24. This tribulation is vastly different from the wrath of God that will come upon the beasts worshippers who do the killing of the saints.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

[Starise]

5 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Got questions doesn't get it right or people give the Word of God their own meaning rather than what it is intended. 

I think it can be either one all depending. 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

@DeighAnn Thank you for your descriptions of how you see this! I'm not there yet. I can't get past the other scriptures that expressly say rest and sleep when talking about the dead in Christ. I'll tell you why I see it the way I do so far- Because like Charlie describes we can be with God and not aware presently. It's really as SIMPLE as that for me. Yes absent from the body for the Christian IS present with God. Yet where do we read of conversations taking place between risen saints in heaven? A few saints  were translated to heaven. They are a minority.

I see it as resting from our labour in the flesh on earth.  Sleep just a greek word used for death. (in the case of death, there is also actual sleep too)

Conversations you want?  OK.  

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant,

and of thy brethren the prophets, AND 

of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[WilliamL]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:01 AM, Revelation Man said:

On 2/11/2021 at 2:01 PM, WilliamL said:

"No saints are in heaven now until the rapture."

But they are, right there in Rev. 4 and 5:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. ... 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

These heavenly elders are most certainly saints. Or are Enoch and Elijah not saints?

Expand   Expand  Expand  

The 24 Elders are the Raptured Church. Of course the Raptured Church is in Heaven during the 70th week, which starts via the Rev. 4:1 RAPTURE.

No, the 24 elders are individual men. One of them personally talked with John, as recorded in Rev. 5:5 above.

Secondly, the Church cannot have been raptured at this point, because Jesus is just then coming with His blood before the throne to seek their final redemption from the grave. This is His second appearance according to the type foreshown in Leviticus 16, wherein the High Priest must appear twice with shed blood, once for himself and the priesthood (already done), and the second time for the people. This second time is what the Church is waiting for. The rapture therefore cannot take place at Rev. 4:1.

More fully explained in my blog post here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1505-the-tabernacle-and-court-part-4-the-most-holy-place/

 

[Starise]

1 minute ago, DeighAnn said:

I see it as resting from our labour in the flesh on earth.  Sleep just a greek word used for death. (in the case of death, there is also actual sleep too)

Conversations you want?  OK.  

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant,

and of thy brethren the prophets, AND 

of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Yeah but wasn't this when John was transported "in the spirit" ? It was a temporary thing. Very likely a vision.

[DeighAnn]

10 minutes ago, Starise said:

Yeah but wasn't this when John was transported "in the spirit" ? It was a temporary thing. Very likely a vision.

Yes, it was when he was 'taken to heaven'. 

[missmuffet]

19 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The harvest is at the end of times as Gabriel said abt Daniel's inheritance. Are u saying that Gabriel lied ?

Why wud God send back those souls from heaven to resurrect their bodies from graves n then take them back to heaven ? Does God hv nothing to do ? 

Those souls in paradeiso do not sleep. Its their bodies that is called "sleep" by Jesus because they await the harvest to take them to inheritance of heaven. Not forcing people to believe me.

 

 

The believer's soul goes immediately to heaven when they die. The body stays in the grave until the rapture of the Church and then their soul that is in heaven joins with the body that is in the grave. The body is resurrected. 

Paradise is heaven.

The unbeliever's soul goes immediately to Hades which is a holding place for those unbelievers to be judged at the end of the 1000 year millennium at the Great White Throne judgment. Their body will be resurrected with their soul at that time. 

 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

The believer's soul goes immediately to heaven when they die. The body stays in the grave until the rapture of the Church and then their soul that is in heaven joins with the body that is in the grave. The body is resurrected. 

Paradise is heaven.

The unbeliever's soul goes immediately to Hades which is a holding place for those unbelievers to be judged at the end of the 1000 year millennium at the Great White Throne judgment. Their body will be resurrected with their soul at that time. 

 

Mismuffet, what does Gen. 2:7 tell us is the definition of a living soul? 

Charlie

[missmuffet]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Mismuffet, what does Gen. 2:7 tell us is the definition of a living soul? 

Charlie

In Genesis 2:7, God breathed the breath of life into Adam, causing Adam to become a “living soul.”

What does that have to do with soul sleep?