No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[Revelation Man]

On 2/24/2021 at 12:57 PM, WilliamL said:

No, I don't miss the whole point. Your whole point is a presumption based upon your preconceived point of view. These 24 elders are not symbolic, because John talks with one of them as an individual. For this and other reasons, such as the blood not being brought before the throne until after Rev. 4:1, I reject your presumption.

Let me go slow here, the reason people like you do not get the whole picture at times brother is you get lost in minutia, of a single translated passage, are a single line of prose, and you mist the full mosaic God is trying to show you. For example, you miss the facts that those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 can not have EVER come out of the 70th week tribulation period, via Jesus own words at the 5th Seal, he tells them they MUST WAIT until they have died in like manner as they fellow brothers. NOW, do you think Jesus was really talking to a Spirit in the Grave for that passage? I don't, because the Seals aren't even fulfilled unto the Trumps start sounding. The first four seals are Jesus warning/prophesying to the Church in Heaven what this tyrants coming 42-month rule will be like.

He (White Horse) Conquers for 42 months. He (Red Horse) brings War for 42 months. He (Black Horse) causes Famines via is wars for 42 months. He (Pale Green Horse) brings with him Sickness/Death/The Grave via his coming 42 month rule. Then the 5th Seal is Jesus opening the 5th seal on this book/scroll of judgments (all 7 have to be off before the scroll can be opened) and prophesying about this evil tyrants 42 months of Martyrs, thus when he says to those under the Altar at the 5th Seal that your vengeance must wait until ALL OF YOUR Brothers have been killed in like manner, he is just speaking PROSE. You know why we know? Because the 5th Seal is opened BEFORE the Beasts 42 month rule begins.

The 6th Seal is Jesus Prophesying about God coming 42 month Wrath. There is Silence via the 7th seal because the Wrath of God has finally arrived, the Trumpet judgments are being readied in heaven by the angels, the scroll has finally been opened. John talking to one of the Elders is very possibly the same thing, prose.

Rev. 20:4 also proves no person killed during the 70th week is seen in heaven in Rev.7:9-16, they all get judged AFTER Jesus' return. So, those seen in Heaven in Revelation 7:9-16 came out of the Church Age Tribulation period. 

As per the BIG PICTURE you are missing by clinging to minutia. Lets go over the things that prove the Church are in Heaven before the scrolls are read. The problem here is you guys ignore all these truths, you can't learn brother by ignoring spoken facts that come from  the bible and clinging to prose exceptions.

1. The 24 Elders have on White Raiment, sit amidst God's Thrones and the have on Gold CROWNS. All of these are PROMISED to the Churches who OVERCOME. Why can't you add 2 + 2 = 4 here brother?

Rev. 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days(This = the WHOLE Church Age): be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev. 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Lets see, Jesus gives us the CHURCH AGE Prose in chapters 2 and 3, tells the OVERCOMERS what their gifts will be inn heaven, then after the Rapture in Rev. 4:1 we see that the 24 Elders (Where do they come from? Men do not go straight to Heaven, 1 Cor. 15 tells us that we are RAISED at Jesus' calling, when those who are alive are tansformed from human bodies to glorious bodies) have all of the PROMISES the 7 Churches were promised. 7 Means completion also, thus he 7 Churches = the Complete number of Churches during the Church Age and 10 days = the entire Church Age also seeing as 10 = COMPLETION also.

And by the way, John asks the Elder a question in Rev. 7, not here in Rev. 4. And Elder does speak to John in Rev. 5, telling him Jesus is worthy to open the 7 Sealed Book or Scroll. Then in verses 9-10 we see this, which further proves the 24 Elders STANDS for the Whole Church, you can't have Elders without a Church also.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, we see those REDEEMED by Jesus blood in heaven before the the Seals are opened and BELOW we see the Church in Heaven after the Seals have been opened and just BEFORE the Trumpet Judgments hit earth.

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is THE CHURCH which came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age tribulation period which is GREATER in length than the 7 years period or 70th week. All one has tp do is read Daniel 12:1-2 and 1 Cor. 15 and they know people are all judged at the VERY END, no one is Heaven yet. 

Jesus never talks to a Martyr under the Altar per se, because at the time Jesus is opening the Seals the Beast isn't even reigning yet. Jesus being God FOREKNOWS what they are thinking, even in the future after they have been killed. Likewise, the 24 Elders don't have to say anything to Jesus or John, its simply prose by Jesus in a book chock full of symbolism. 

You miss the BIG PICTURE brother by not allowing Jesus/God to use symbolism in many cases. It would be like you saying, NO, there really has to be a Red Dragon AND a 7 Headed Beast. Its just symbolism brother. People tend to cling to any thing that proves their points of view. Its called the pride of life, mankind was born with this fault, e have to overcome it, but that is a continual challenge. We can never get unto ALL TRUTH until we understand only God has ALL TRUTH and wants us to see it but we keep saying BUT...BUT....2+2 = 5 God. 

 

[TheBlade]

Lol....I'm going to say there is not one person that died and then said "pfft this isn't heaven this is just paradise". We know Moses, Enoch were caught up. We know Christ said "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". Were trying to answer something that is not truly addressed or answered.

So Christ has died rose AMAN.. did something change?  2nd Cor "I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don't know"

For me my body will be sleeping but my spirit will be with Him. 

 

[WilliamL]

On 2/25/2021 at 3:45 PM, Revelation Man said:

you mist the full mosaic God is trying to show you. For example, you miss the facts that those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 can not have EVER come out of the 70th week tribulation period, via Jesus own words at the 5th Seal, he tells them they MUST WAIT until they have died in like manner as they fellow brothers.

Multiple presumptions in one sentence. This is why I don't take you seriously. You PRESUME, without evidence, that there is a "70th week tribulation period." You PRESUME that those of Rev. 7 are the same ones as those of the 5th Seal.

Neither of these presumptions is true.

For anyone interested, read my last three of seven blog posts on Daniel here:

43. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

A very detailed translation and grammatical explanation of Daniel 9:27, which reveals various mistranslations found in different English versions of the Bible.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

[Charlie744]

22 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Multiple presumptions in one sentence. This is why I don't take you seriously. You PRESUME, without evidence, that there is a "70th week tribulation period." You PRESUME that those of Rev. 7 are the same ones as those of the 5th Seal.

Neither of these presumptions is true.

For anyone interested, read my last three of seven blog posts on Daniel here:

43. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

A very detailed translation and grammatical explanation of Daniel 9:27, which reveals various mistranslations found in different English versions of the Bible.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

WilliamL, it appears you have completed a very detailed study on Daniel. If you would be so kind, will you share your thoughts on the following:

^9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’^[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’^[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple^[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

1) who is "he" in the above verse,

2) what "covenant" is being spoken of,

3) what is meant by the 7 years,

4) what happens in the "middle / midst of the week",

5) who puts an end to the daily sacrifice and offering,

6) what is the AOD,

7) what is "poured out" or made "desolate",

The above is from the NIV and as you are well aware, there are more than a few translations ..... however, the "message" should be the same....

You can certainly use any translation you find appropriate but I would welcome your interpretations / thoughts on the above.

Thank you, Charlie

 

[WilliamL]

45 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

If you would be so kind, will you share your thoughts on the following...

The following is from the first of the three blogs I mentioned. It will give you the accurate reading of verse 27. Read the latter two blogs to answer your questions; too long to post here.

 

Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

...

וְהִגְבִּיר/And he shall cause to prevail/confirm; or, And he shall make strong [Hiphil Perfect 3ms with וְ/vav consecutive prefix] בְּרִית/a covenant לָרַבִּים/for the multitude שָׁבוּעַ/week אֶחָד/one…

“And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week…”

Comment: A vav consecutive, also called a vav relative, is an unusual convention in Hebrew that changes a Perfect verb (completed action) into the effect of an Imperfect verb (incomplete action). They are commonly found, as here, at the beginning of a verse or phrase to continue a future tense sequence, the “consecutive,” the “relationship.” In this case, the narrative begins with the previous Hiphil Imperfect verb in verse 26, which is future tense: יַשְׁחִית/“he shall cause to destroy.” The narrative then continues in verse 27 with other future actions of the same “he.” The same man who is to cause the destruction of Jerusalem and Sanctuary also, as part of his actions, both causes [Hiphil] to confirm (or make) a covenant; and, as shown below, is the cause [Hiphil] of the cessation of blood sacrifices.

“A covenant”: there is no ה/the before ברית/covenant. “The” multitude: there is a ה before רבים/multitude, subsumed within the preposition לָ; it is indicated by the Qamets vowel point [ ָ ] beneath it.

*          *          *

…וַחֲצִי/and the midst/middle of הַשָּׁבוּעַ/the week יַשְׁבִּית/he shall cause to cease [Hiphil Imperfect 3ms] זֶבַח/blood sacrifice וּמִנְחָה/and offering. …

“…and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. …”

Comment: “…the midst of the week” is an example of a Construct Chain, in which two or more consecutive nouns are connected with an “of.” When the latter noun is prefixed with a ה, as in this case, both (or multiple) nouns will carry the definite article in the translation: “the midst of the week.”

The term חצי is sometimes used in a general sense: it cannot be presumed here to mean “exact middle,” i.e., 3½ years. Cf. Num. 32:33; Josh. 10:13; Ps. 102:24; Jer. 13:11.

Note the third and final 3ms Hiphil verb in this future tense prophetic narrative. Because it is not prefixed by a vav consecutive, it reverts to the Imperfect.

*          *          *

…וְעַל/And upon/over כְּנַף/a wing/corner/border, שִׁקּוּצִים/abominable things/idols of מְשֹׁמֵם/one who destroys/a destroyer [Polel verb stem (like Piel: intensive) Active Participle ms]…

“… And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer…”

Comment: All kinds of presumptions have been imposed by different translators upon this phrase. For example, עַל means “upon, over,” never “for” or “by.” (Compare what your Bible says.)

כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle, as the KJV mistranslates it (“overspreading”). It has no prefix ה/the.

שִׁקּוּצִים is plural, not singular. Although many people presume that this phraseשִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם/shiqqutzim məshomame is equivalent to the similar-sounding phrase שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם/shiqqutz shomame of Daniel 12:11, they are significantly different. Only the latter phrase fulfills the prophecy by Jesus about “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Matt. 24:15 Both shiqqutz and shomame are singular and lack the prefixה, so shomame can act as an attributive participle, thus as a modifier of shiqqutz: “a desolating abomination” = “an abomination of desolation.”

In contrast, 9:27ʼs shiqqutzim is plural, while məshomame is singular, so cannot be its modifier: it has to be a noun, “destroyer.” (Attributive participles must agree in number – both being singular or plural; in gender – both being masculine or feminine; and in definiteness – both having or not having the definite articleה. See Part 4 for the three kinds of participles.)

The NIVʼs “an abomination that causes desolation” utterly corrupts the meaning of the Hebrew text. The NIV rejects the Hebrew, following the Greek Septuagint, which grossly varies from the Hebrew text of the Book of Daniel. Contrary to the understanding of many people, the original Septuagint scholars did not translate anything beyond the Torah, the five books of Moses. Translations of the other Old Testament books were added later by unknown translators at unknown times. Those translations significantly varied in quality.

*          *          *

…וְעַל־/even until כָּלָה/a consummation/complete end וְנֶחֱרָצָה/so/even having been decreed/determined [Niphal Passive Participle fs with ו prefix] תִּתַּךְ/(it) shall be poured out [Qal Imperfect 3fs] עַל־/upon שֹׁמֵֽם/a desolating one/desolator [Qal Active Participle ms].

“…even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

Comment: Many have been confused by the two similar participles derived from the same Hebrew verb שָּׁמֵם/shawmame: məshomame in the previous phrase of verse 27, and shomame in this phrase. The difference between them derives from the former being an intensive (Polel) participle, and the latter being a common (Qal) participle. Therefore, I have translated the former as “destroyer,” and the latter as (merely) “desolator.” The important thing to understand here is that these are two different men, with the former being more destructive than the latter.

Note that there is no ה/the before שֹׁמֵם/desolator: “the desolator” is a common but misleading mistranslation, based again upon a presumption. And, because this is an active participle – “one doing” something – that rules out this merely being a passive “desolate(d) one/thing/place,” as this word is sometimes mistranslated.

There is also no ה before כָּלָה/“consummation;” but since that consummation is “decreed,” a “the” may be implied.

*          *          *

Daniel 9:27 “And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week; and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer, even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

[Riverwalker]

I would submit that our spirits, are already in heaven with God

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

 

2nd Corinthians 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The following is from the first of the three blogs I mentioned. It will give you the accurate reading of verse 27. Read the latter two blogs to answer your questions; too long to post here.

 

Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

...

וְהִגְבִּיר/And he shall cause to prevail/confirm; or, And he shall make strong [Hiphil Perfect 3ms with וְ/vav consecutive prefix] בְּרִית/a covenant לָרַבִּים/for the multitude שָׁבוּעַ/week אֶחָד/one…

“And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week…”

Comment: A vav consecutive, also called a vav relative, is an unusual convention in Hebrew that changes a Perfect verb (completed action) into the effect of an Imperfect verb (incomplete action). They are commonly found, as here, at the beginning of a verse or phrase to continue a future tense sequence, the “consecutive,” the “relationship.” In this case, the narrative begins with the previous Hiphil Imperfect verb in verse 26, which is future tense: יַשְׁחִית/“he shall cause to destroy.” The narrative then continues in verse 27 with other future actions of the same “he.” The same man who is to cause the destruction of Jerusalem and Sanctuary also, as part of his actions, both causes [Hiphil] to confirm (or make) a covenant; and, as shown below, is the cause [Hiphil] of the cessation of blood sacrifices.

“A covenant”: there is no ה/the before ברית/covenant. “The” multitude: there is a ה before רבים/multitude, subsumed within the preposition לָ; it is indicated by the Qamets vowel point [ ָ ] beneath it.

*          *          *

…וַחֲצִי/and the midst/middle of הַשָּׁבוּעַ/the week יַשְׁבִּית/he shall cause to cease [Hiphil Imperfect 3ms] זֶבַח/blood sacrifice וּמִנְחָה/and offering. …

“…and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. …”

Comment: “…the midst of the week” is an example of a Construct Chain, in which two or more consecutive nouns are connected with an “of.” When the latter noun is prefixed with a ה, as in this case, both (or multiple) nouns will carry the definite article in the translation: “the midst of the week.”

The term חצי is sometimes used in a general sense: it cannot be presumed here to mean “exact middle,” i.e., 3½ years. Cf. Num. 32:33; Josh. 10:13; Ps. 102:24; Jer. 13:11.

Note the third and final 3ms Hiphil verb in this future tense prophetic narrative. Because it is not prefixed by a vav consecutive, it reverts to the Imperfect.

*          *          *

…וְעַל/And upon/over כְּנַף/a wing/corner/border, שִׁקּוּצִים/abominable things/idols of מְשֹׁמֵם/one who destroys/a destroyer [Polel verb stem (like Piel: intensive) Active Participle ms]…

“… And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer…”

Comment: All kinds of presumptions have been imposed by different translators upon this phrase. For example, עַל means “upon, over,” never “for” or “by.” (Compare what your Bible says.)

כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle, as the KJV mistranslates it (“overspreading”). It has no prefix ה/the.

שִׁקּוּצִים is plural, not singular. Although many people presume that this phraseשִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם/shiqqutzim məshomame is equivalent to the similar-sounding phrase שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם/shiqqutz shomame of Daniel 12:11, they are significantly different. Only the latter phrase fulfills the prophecy by Jesus about “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Matt. 24:15 Both shiqqutz and shomame are singular and lack the prefixה, so shomame can act as an attributive participle, thus as a modifier of shiqqutz: “a desolating abomination” = “an abomination of desolation.”

In contrast, 9:27ʼs shiqqutzim is plural, while məshomame is singular, so cannot be its modifier: it has to be a noun, “destroyer.” (Attributive participles must agree in number – both being singular or plural; in gender – both being masculine or feminine; and in definiteness – both having or not having the definite articleה. See Part 4 for the three kinds of participles.)

The NIVʼs “an abomination that causes desolation” utterly corrupts the meaning of the Hebrew text. The NIV rejects the Hebrew, following the Greek Septuagint, which grossly varies from the Hebrew text of the Book of Daniel. Contrary to the understanding of many people, the original Septuagint scholars did not translate anything beyond the Torah, the five books of Moses. Translations of the other Old Testament books were added later by unknown translators at unknown times. Those translations significantly varied in quality.

*          *          *

…וְעַל־/even until כָּלָה/a consummation/complete end וְנֶחֱרָצָה/so/even having been decreed/determined [Niphal Passive Participle fs with ו prefix] תִּתַּךְ/(it) shall be poured out [Qal Imperfect 3fs] עַל־/upon שֹׁמֵֽם/a desolating one/desolator [Qal Active Participle ms].

“…even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

Comment: Many have been confused by the two similar participles derived from the same Hebrew verb שָּׁמֵם/shawmame: məshomame in the previous phrase of verse 27, and shomame in this phrase. The difference between them derives from the former being an intensive (Polel) participle, and the latter being a common (Qal) participle. Therefore, I have translated the former as “destroyer,” and the latter as (merely) “desolator.” The important thing to understand here is that these are two different men, with the former being more destructive than the latter.

Note that there is no ה/the before שֹׁמֵם/desolator: “the desolator” is a common but misleading mistranslation, based again upon a presumption. And, because this is an active participle – “one doing” something – that rules out this merely being a passive “desolate(d) one/thing/place,” as this word is sometimes mistranslated.

There is also no ה before כָּלָה/“consummation;” but since that consummation is “decreed,” a “the” may be implied.

*          *          *

Daniel 9:27 “And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week; and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer, even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

Ok WilliamL... and thank you! 

Please note the comment directly below IS NOT MEANT IN A DISPARAGING OR HURTFUL MANNER (IT IS COMPLETELY MEANT IN A JOKING MANNER AND CAME IMMEDIATELY TO MIND WHILE / AFTER READING YOUR COMMENTS);

This reminds me of more than a few times during my career where I would sit with the IT Director or Manager to discuss some very important subjects...... and they included everything from hardware to software technical or practical concerns. He / she would begin to speak "IT" in tremendous detail for perhaps an hour or so and where I and others had absolutely NO idea what he was saying..... worse than Greek... Greek would have been a blessing! After speaking for an hour I stopped him and rephrased by original question which was, "How do you turn on this computer"?

Well, after several more attempts I thought I would call security and have him rushed out of the building, but I did not.... I hit the switch on the PC and saw a wide and happy smile on his face. Meeting adjourned... all is once again well in "tron land".

Now, back to this subject. WilliamL, if I understood your detailed comments, there are 3 actors you identified: destroyer, a desolator and a commander... and I really did not learn too much after that...... 

Once again, if you would be so kind, can you place a one or two word answer / response adjacent to EACH of the 7 items I listed in my recent post?

Again, I attempted (and sometimes I do not succeed) in bringing in humor ... this is how I diffuse confusion and, in my mind, unnecessary complications in / during a conversation, so once again, please note there is NO harm or disrespect intended!!!!!

Look forward to your response, Charlie

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 2/28/2021 at 12:28 PM, WilliamL said:

Multiple presumptions in one sentence. This is why I don't take you seriously. You PRESUME, without evidence, that there is a "70th week tribulation period." You PRESUME that those of Rev. 7 are the same ones as those of the 5th Seal.

Neither of these presumptions is true.

Of course they are, read the bible, the 70th week prophecy can not come to pass until Israel have repented. By the way, I don't need other men's adulation. All the hope I need is to know supposed learned men (Pharisees) rejected Jesus' wisdom, so why would I expect any different result? All it does is make me be wary of someone when they can't see the obvious.

On 2/28/2021 at 12:28 PM, WilliamL said:

Neither of these presumptions is true.

For anyone interested, read my last three of seven blog posts on Daniel here:

43. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 5: Verse 27

A very detailed translation and grammatical explanation of Daniel 9:27, which reveals various mistranslations found in different English versions of the Bible.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

I do my own study and research before I wrote my own blogs. As my Daniel 11 & 12 Exegesis shows, my works is comprehensive, my studies are comprehensive, and my prayers are for the Holy Spirit to lead me unto all truth not MY TRUTHS.

MY BLOG on Daniel.

Daniel's 70 Week Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression (Israel has yet to Repent as a Nation)
2. Make and end of sins (Willful sins must stop before the 70th week ends)
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel repents before the 2nd coming)
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus will bring that when he reigns)
5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All Prophecy must be FINISHED/Over)
6. Anoint the most Holy (Jesus must be anointed King of kings and Lord) 

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. Matt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, willful sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom in Jerusalem, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no willful sins, me will live in sin flesh still, yet there is no one tempting them. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble” ends, then “sins will willful end”.

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on the holy Mountain in Jerusalem to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron. The Nations will then bring up gifts to Jesus yearly. 

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

---------------------------------------------

I think that ends the debate about the 70th week to be honest. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Justin Adams]

Could just mean the end of Jeremiah's 70 years. The sin is paid for, you are forgiven and OK now. Back in the promised land and with the Temple rebuilt. It is not as simple as prophecy buffs make out.

"the already, but not yet".

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Of course they are, read the bible, the 70th week prophecy can not come to pass until Israel have repented. By the way, I don't need other men's adulation. All the hope I need is to know supposed learned men (Pharisees) rejected Jesus' wisdom, so why would I expect any different result? All it does is make me be wary of someone when they can't see the obvious.

I do my own study and research before I wrote my own blogs. As my Daniel 11 & 12 Exegesis shows, my works is comprehensive, my studies are comprehensive, and my prayers are for the Holy Spirit to lead me unto all truth not MY TRUTHS.

MY BLOG on Daniel.

Daniel's 70 Week Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression (Israel has yet to Repent as a Nation)
2. Make and end of sins (Willful sins must stop before the 70th week ends)
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel repents before the 2nd coming)
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus will bring that when he reigns)
5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All Prophecy must be FINISHED/Over)
6. Anoint the most Holy (Jesus must be anointed King of kings and Lord) 

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. Matt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, willful sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom in Jerusalem, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no willful sins, me will live in sin flesh still, yet there is no one tempting them. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble” ends, then “sins will willful end”.

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on the holy Mountain in Jerusalem to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron. The Nations will then bring up gifts to Jesus yearly. 

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

---------------------------------------------

I think that ends the debate about the 70th week to be honest. 

RM, I realize that we see those 6 requirements and the last week of Daniel quite differently- in fact, perhaps just the opposite, but that just means we INTERPRET His prophecy in Daniel. 

I still have not found the commandment that says “thall shall not interpret the Word of God”.

It is abundantly clear to all you have a heart and mind for His Word and you have chosen Him as your Lord and Savior... 

God bless always, Charlie