A question to those who would promote the idea that some of the bible is figurative and NOT literal

[Buddy D. Mouse]

I am not of the opinion that things in a parable are DE FACTO "not true".

I am not of the opinion that a PARABLE only makes ONE POINT - a myth that used to go around.

I believe every thing in the Luke 16 account is TRUE concerning HADES as it was before the resurrection. The rich man was in that portion of Hades called Torments, it was divided from where Beggar Lazarus was - in "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise. There was a Gulf between the 2 sections that could not be crossed. We know that Christ preached to THE SPIRITS IN PRISON when He descended to Hades. The idea that He brought those deemed to be forgiven with Him back up to Heaven has crudely been called THE HARROWING OF HELL, and I think it is a reality.  On what basis OT people were deemed to go to heaven we are not given.

There was an old book - WHAT HAPPENNED FROM THE CROSS TO THE THRONE - that delved into all of this.  Luke 16 gave us truth about HADES as it then was - before the resurrection, but HADES (which simply means THE UNSEEN REALM - that's what hades means in Greek - SEEN with the negating alpha in front) was "changed" (again).

HELL - created for the devil and his angels...

Changed into the HADES which held "good and bad" men as well, then was Tartarus holding only the "bad" dead after THE HARROWING OF HELL.

Repentant thief on the Cross was to be with Christ THAT DAY in PARADISE - and so he was.  One must decide whether it was 

"I tell you - today you will be with me in Paradise"

or

'I tell you today - that you will be with me in paradise

Pictures of the afterlife in the Bible are sometimes confusing - whether the dead are conscious or not has the Luke 16 account showing they definitely are, as well as Samuel being called up by Witch of Endor to speak with Saul - to me this establishes by preponderance of the evidence that the SOUL SLEEP of SDA's and others is not valid.

 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

It's not figurative that Samuel was called up to speak to King Saul - it really happenned - real but wrong - it was wrong for Saul to use a medium to call up Samuel from the dead, but he did it.

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Some of the language about "beaten with few stripes - beaten with many stripes" could apply strictly to BAEMA judgement seat of Christ - which deals with saved people only.

This does away with the false notion of "levels of Hell" like a cosmic Dante's Inferno.

Hell was created for Devil and his angels - first called SHEOL...

Humans start going there - from Abel to the "morally neutral" hades - til Christ and the harrowing of hell - and now "bad" human souls await being dumped into Lake of Fire

 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

I don't think the Lake of Fire ANNIHILATES anyone - for the Beast and False Prophet ARE in it 1000 years later when Satan is dumped in -- and he must be eventually loosed for a little season.

 

[Charlie744]

11 minutes ago, Episcopius said:

It's not figurative that Samuel was called up to speak to King Saul - it really happenned - real but wrong - it was wrong for Saul to use a medium to call up Samuel from the dead, but he did it.

Not to change the subject.... here are the verses found in 1 Samuel 28.......

¹¹ Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

¹² When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

¹³ The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure^[a] coming up out of the earth.”

¹⁴ “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

****************************************************************

Here is my take on this....

1) Saul did NOT see Samuel - he asked the witch to describe him, she did and then he asked her "what does he look like"..... she responded "an old man wearing a robe is coming up". Then Saul knew it was Samuel........ bowed down....... prostrated himself with his face to the ground....

        Saul ACCEPTED it was Samuel based on her comments of what SHE saw. Saul never looked up at any time...

        Samuel was DEAD and the dead know nothing....... he had returned to dust,

        The witch would NEVER have any ability or power over the dead let along 
Samuel.

         God hated the mediums and instructed Saul to get rid of all of them.... but when He rejected Saul and he became worried then Saul wanted to use a witches services - completely against the command of God....... God would never use a medium when He told Saul to remove them.... quite contradictory....

         This was clearly, to me, the work of Satan and Saul once again disobeyed God.

Just my thoughts, Charlie

[Justin Adams]

41 minutes ago, Episcopius said:

It's not figurative that Samuel was called up to speak to King Saul - it really happenned - real but wrong - it was wrong for Saul to use a medium to call up Samuel from the dead, but he did it.

Exactly. The Mistress of the Obe said: "I see an elohim coming up..."

(elohim is hebrew for any disembodied spirit, dead or alive) God the Father is an Elohim, but no other elohim is God.

That is why God forbids necromancy and the like. Why? Because it WORKS and is very dangerous. It really does happen!!

[Buddy D. Mouse]

1Sa 28:15

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/copyChkboxOff.gif 1Sa 28:16

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/copyChkboxOff.gif 1Sa  28:17

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

 

Look - THE BIBLE says Samuel was called up from the dead and spoke with Saul - it FLAT OUT SAYS IT WAS SAMUEL

Believe it - or believe some false SDA Soul Sleep doctrine

[Starise]

5 hours ago, Episcopius said:

John 11's account of Lazarus of Bethany is being confused with Luke 16's account of a parable of Lazarus the Beggar.

They are not the same Lazarus - Lazarus of Bethany is wealthy enough to have his own tomb - he is no beggar

My mistake.Yes I accidentally referenced the wrong Lazarus here  Luke 16 was the intended text. Thanks @Episcopius for clearing that up.

@Tristen Thanks for your comments. In the text Jesus was responding to jeering from covetous  Pharisees as you referenced in v.14. I believe this was the main premise for the Parable. 

And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

My take away is, Jesus was pointing out both the insignificance of wealth in the next life and the huge gulf between those who followed Christ and those who didn't.

Without getting too deep into a study of Sheol and Hades, I think we have enough information to determine this is/was an actual location as well.

While I see it as a parable mainly, Jesus used more details in this than the typical parable, leading me to entertain the idea He was referring to a real place. If so, then what He said was happening there was in fact at the very least representative of what happens there.

If you've read any of my past posts on death and the afterlife you would see my strong leaning towards the idea we are "at rest"if we die under the blood before we are resurrected. This view presents other problems when compared to other scriptures and especially if this isn't only a parable. I would ABSOLUTELY prefer to be conscious and with the Lord at death. Yet this isn't about what I prefer, it's about the facts. "If" it is determined Hades is a real place for the dead who are conscious then we have to explain other scriptures that seem to indicate something else is going on.

 

[angels4u]

On 2/22/2021 at 6:15 PM, GandalfTheWise said:

I've got an old 1st edition Fee & Douglass How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth which I picked up new within a year or so of when it was released.  Probably one of the most influential books I've read in terms of long-term effect on my life.

That's a book I probably order if still available..

 

[GandalfTheWise]

On 12/22/2021 at 11:11 AM, angels4u said:

That's a book I probably order if still available..

 

It's in its 4th edition now.  My understanding is that the new editions were changed mostly to include various new Bible versions that have come out in recent years.  I haven't seen the newer editions, but I'd assume they have the same core concepts and lessons as the first edition.  I'd also guess that with Fee and Douglass both having decades to get feedback that newer editions would be improved based on that.