Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[JohnD]

Hello brothers and sisters,

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the pre-trib rapture theological position.

Why do you believe in a pre trib rapture?

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

Because the tribulation in question is the wrath of God poured out on those who know not God.

2 Thessalonians 1:4-8 (KJV)

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

God's wrath for the believer was taken care of on the cross of Christ.

Colossians 2:13-14 (KJV)

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The purpose for the tribulation is partly vengeance for the blood of the martyrs and the blood of Christ poured out for the unbelieving (1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2) but woe unto the man or woman who remains in unbelief (John 3:16-18). But it is also to get the Jews to exhaust every other resort and at the last to cry out to the Jesus theretofore rejected by them.

Jeremiah 30:7 (KJV)

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

The Church will escape that tribulation of roughly 3 1/2 years.

But there is a prior tribulation roughly 3 1/2 years long aimed right at Christians / Messianics.

Revelation 13:5-10 (KJV)

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

666 will be a mark used to track down and kill the one people on planet earth that will not receive it... Messianics / Christians.

Revelation 13:16-18 (KJV)

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So when the rapture takes place those few who survive to that point will be so far underground in hiding the general population will believed them to have been extinct already and their actual exodus from this world will not be the circus event most paint the rapture as (flying bodies in the sky and cars and planes and trains suddenly without their operators etc.).

[JohnD]

read it and weep. adam clarke has been dead before the idea of this modern dispy was ever thought of.

http://studylight.or...=mt&chapter=024

i dont agree with all of that but history does record alot on that. its sad that churches dont teach josephus and his accounts of the siege.

of course any theologian has issues. clarke too has his. sheesh thank god for his spirit.

For the other readers who can make any sense out of what he said:

Jesus DID NOT return in A.D. 70.

"And every eye shall see"...............????

If that verse is not the literal, visible return of Christ...then what is it?

A pastor in San Diego who I used to do street witnessing with on college campuses and at the old Jack Murphy stadium when the JW's held their annual convention there... turned out to be a Preterist. And he was quite outraged when I pointed out to him the same scriptures used to refute Watchtower theology about the invisible return of Jesus in 1914 were the same scriptures that refute Preterism about an invisible return in 70 CE. We haven't spoken since (1996).

[jasoncran]

he judged isreal.

so how does hell exist yet theres no final judgement until after the millenium?

so when jesus returns how will annais see him with his eyes coming the clouds if the judgment isnt till after the millenium. hell is like sheol thus a grave its not some anything like the lake yet. the sea and hell(grave) hasnt given up the dead yet and none are cast into the fiery lake of gehanna. so how it is possible a long dead man would know that?

[rjp34652]

read it and weep. adam clarke has been dead before the idea of this modern dispy was ever thought of.

http://studylight.or...=mt&chapter=024

i dont agree with all of that but history does record alot on that. its sad that churches dont teach josephus and his accounts of the siege.

of course any theologian has issues. clarke too has his. sheesh thank god for his spirit.

For the other readers who can make any sense out of what he said:

Jesus DID NOT return in A.D. 70.

"And every eye shall see"...............????

If that verse is not the literal, visible return of Christ...then what is it?

A pastor in San Diego who I used to do street witnessing with on college campuses and at the old Jack Murphy stadium when the JW's held their annual convention there... turned out to be a Preterist. And he was quite outraged when I pointed out to him the same scriptures used to refute Watchtower theology about the invisible return of Jesus in 1914 were the same scriptures that refute Preterism about an invisible return in 70 CE. We haven't spoken since (1996).

I've had the same experience. Good friends at church turned their back on us because of a differing view on the fantasy of the Rapture. That was a watershed experience for me. If a doctrine like the Rapture is so divisive among brethren, then it should be dumped like the rubbish it is.

1. There is absolutely nothing that anyone can do about the rapture myth. First, mid or last nothing of it can change a man's life. You're either ready or you're not.

2. The Rapture myth is divisive, not efficacious to the church. Like perverted priests and ministers it should be rejected completely.

3. The Rapture has absolutely nothing to do with the hope of the second coming. Interpretations are more like an episode of XFiles than gospel preaching.

4. The Rapture ideology was concocted by a lame committee of men at the Niagara Conference of the early twentieth century. Not even a majority of invited delegates voted for its approval, yet we as a whole are expected to swallow this gibberish. If it were a law it would be illegal because the majority DID NOT approve.

5. The Rapture ideology is from satan because it causes brethren, who might otherwise be a blessing to one another to be a source of bitterness.

6. The Rapture myth has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation, justification, the revelation of the love of God or the sanctification of the saints. Therefore it is demonic.

Nevertheless, because men love to hate one another and to lord it over one another, the Rapture will continue in Christian literature and mythos. Not one single person will take this message to heart even though the Rapture myth doesn't provide so much as a single paving stone on the road to paradise.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[gdemoss]

rjp, thanks your for your post. It led me to search and come across Dave MacPherson and an excerpt from his book about MacDonalds utterance. The neat things about any writing is that they are always interpreted by the spirit within a man and therefore seen in the light or darkness of the man. Some have eyes that are not single and a convolution of confusion sets in the mind. Antichrist, the spirit in the world, is working far harder these days to confuse the minds of those who have Christ that they might be won to an Antichrist view, while Christ is seeking to purify the minds of all who will come.

Thank you for sharing. Know that your risking yourself publicly caused me to have a five minute prayer cession of tears and a release of torment for the souls around me that are currently held captive by the spirit of Antichrist. Our Father hears our cries. He has all power.

That said, I never learned the error in the various rapture theories by study. I learned them by revelation from God through his Holy Spirit. But first in order to be filled with his Spirit I had to do as the scriptures said:

Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I developed a great internal desire to be filled with the Spirit of Holiness and kept pure in all things having a good conscience before God and man. Then and only then, as my mind began to be purified, was I able to start seeing the inconsistencies in the doctrines presented. Satan had blinded my mind through the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. Only when I began to reject these temptations and cry out to God for deliverance, did the fog begin to lift and I see the world around me more clearly.

I can only imagine what those who are filled with the spirit of Antichrist might see as they read my words. I am sitting here filled with love, peace and joy as I write unto you. I desire nothing more than continued patience, meekness and self control peppered with goodness, gentleness and faith that I might feed others with the fruits of righteousness. I have given up fighting anyone or anything. My sole desire is to walk as he walked, in the power of the Spirit, and grow in the knowledge of him.

A beautiful song once written and still sang by many today in the congregations of those who are yet asleep;

Turn your eyes upon Jesus

Look full in his wonderful face

And the things of earth will grow strangely dim

In the light of his glory and grace.

May we all receive a love of the truth which is the only true way to unveil deception and keep one from the great delusion that has been sent that all who believe in it will perish because they had pleasure in unrighteousness. Walk circumspectly, as wise...the power of life and death are in the tongue.

Pre, Post, Mid, Prewrath and if there be any other view of the harpadzo must all be filtered through the lens of an illuminated eye that has been enlightened by Gods Holy Spirit. But be of good cheer, it is God who works all things to the counsel of his own will. He will bring it to pass. Those who have had fellowship with him in the sufferings that come from living godly in Christ Jesus will celebrate an amazing victory with the one who will destroy by the brightness of his coming.

Peace and love unto all, especially those who love our Lord in sincerity and all truth.

[OneLight]

Hide? Why would we need to hide? Did the Israelite hide when all was going on in Egypt, or did God protect them? Did Noah hide when the flood came, or did God protect them? There is no need to hide when God is protecting you. Otherwise, how would His glory be seen?

[Montana Marv]

Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood....

The rest of mankind (all those still living) after the death of those killed by the plagues (the second woe). continued to worship (God) (NO), but demons and idols.

In Christ

Montana Marv

This is one reason why I cannot believe in a post trib Rapture of the Church.

[enoob57]

Hide? Why would we need to hide? Did the Israelite hide when all was going on in Egypt, or did God protect them? Did Noah hide when the flood came, or did God protect them? There is no need to hide when God is protecting you. Otherwise, how would His glory be seen?

I thought hide was what held my hair on

[OneLight]

OneLight:

Hide? Why would we need to hide? Did the Israelite hide when all was going on in Egypt, or did God protect them? Did Noah hide when the flood came, or did God protect them? There is no need to hide when God is protecting you. Otherwise, how would His glory be seen?

Wow Brother, I don't think you get it. We have not even got to the vials yet. Your not down here to see God's Glory, not down here to spread the Word, Heck, you won't even be down here.

We are here as a witness to Him. His protection is all the more of a witness. You say we are not at the vials yet, so that leads me to ask, where are we? When was the seals opened? When were the trumpets blown?

1 Corinthians 15:52 states " in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.". This is when I believe the rapture will take place, not before, nor afterward.

This is not about Satan, about any mark of some beast, not about a false prophet. It's about God completely removing sin off this planet, just like he did in Noah's day. It's about the sin of man that Rejected the Lord Jesus becoming extinct. Gone, killed, destroyed.

Even the 144,000 that are given to spread the good news about Jesus (Not the Gospel of Christ or anointing) Even they are removed 3 1/2 years into Tribulation because not a whole lot of people will be left for them to preach to.

Can you provide scripture that they are taken out at this time?

There is no Church here, No Gospel of Christ, No greater one (Holy Spirit) who has authority over the devil, No anointed prayers. It's man who rejected the Word of God in which we carried out in great power before Tribulation started.

There will be absolutely no place to go, Hide, or be safe. This is not some weak demonic attack, this is the creator of the universe destroying man off the planet.

As for Noah? You ask?

Yes. there is a direct comparison to the flood and removal of man, to the tribulation and the removal of man.

Exactly just like the days of Noah. People were going about making plans, getting married, having kids, doing all kinds of nasty things to each other. Not a care in the World. They were planing marriages, dinners, picnic's, parties, feast. It was all going just fine..

Fine until.

Noah and His family entered into that Ark.

In our day there will be scoffers. Where is the promise of his coming? Things continue as they did before, nothing has changed, no big world event. We had some wars, we had some things happen, but Jesus should have been here by now.

Just like the days of Noah, where they expected Nothing, they will say peace and safety, we can work out our differences, have tolerance for all what man likes to do. Things are working out.

Working out until.

Just like the days of Noah, but this time, God's people are saved differently. People did not have a clue, knew nothing! Nothing until..............................

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Our Lord, the only one worthy to start God's mystery, the Tribulation, steps up and opens that first seal. The angels start to form around with the first censor. The first Trumpet being Prepared.

Jesus Is Lord.

Who are they that are beheaded for not taking the mark if no Christian is around? Where did they come from? When will these killing stop? When are the Two Witnesses going to be present?

Oh, I get it. I have been studying this sine the late 70's.

[gdemoss]

Mike, you stated that God is doing so to destroy sin from the face of the earth. Where did you come up with this conclusion? Christ gave his body that the body of sin 'might' be destroyed. This was to happen with the church but the church has run its course and has become just as unprofitable as Israel did and worthy of judgment rather than deliverance. Israel had a covenant but broke the covenant because they failed to keep it, God found fault with them. God judged them for their disobedience. We were given a covenant built upon better promises, the promise of the Holy Spirit given that we might have Christ in us, the hope of glory, to mortify the deeds of the body and be enabled to have victory over sin as we walk in the Spirit. How much sorer a punishment do you think it worthy to those who chucked the promise of the Spirit and walked in darkness while claiming the blood of Christ would pay for their sin?

Many will be 'taken' in the opening of the tribulation. One of the problems you have as a pretribber is Enoch. He was taken because he pleased God through his faith. When a rapture does occur. Regardless of the timing, it will be of those who please God through faith. Hebrews 11 shows explicitly that faith allows people to do great things and reveals itself in their works. Here are a few things that scripture declares we as believers can do through the Spirit by faith:

According to the scriptures, we as Christians can walk as Christ walked through the power of the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the flesh. That we can lay aside the sin that so easily besets us. That we can have purified hearts and be single minded before God in these bodies though sin dwell in them. That we can be quickened in our mortal flesh by the same Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead bearing witness that he was the Son of God. That we can escape the corruption that is in the world through lust by the knowledge of him who has called us to virtue.

The same scriptures teach that Jesus is our sacrifice for sin but also that obedience is better than sacrifice. So given the state of the church today, as a pretribber, you need to explain who is actually pleasing unto God that will fulfill the foreshadow cast by Enoch and be taken without seeing death. We who believe that it will occur at the last trump can easily explain all of the dead carcasses of believers littering the streets in what will be mislabeled as the rapture. They will be those who did not please God through faith but were destroyed by God being the those who defiled the temple of God through spiritual adultery with the Spirit of Antichrist leading them to destruction through unbelief rather than faith delivering one from sin.

Too many people are going about preaching the Grace of God as the answer to our problem of salvation without preaching that by that same Grace we have the power to live completely changed lives having become the enemy of sin rather than a friend of the world that embraces and justifies their sinful behavior. Preaching that we remain poor sinners saved by Grace when the truth is that ones life can be radically transformed by the power of Gods Grace working in them and through them. We are saved for good works and not by them but God does by his Grace work through those he saves.

I contend therefore that either God must take those who are sanctified only and leave the rest behind to be beheaded in the tribulation or squeak by through grace until the second coming OR God will purify the church first through the opening of the seals in Revelation up to the seventh trump where those who have been refined in the fire are caught up to meet Christ in the air and bring in the Kingdom of God upon the earth. I believe that the biblical evidence supports the latter. I have never met a pretribber who believes that we, through the power of the Spirit, can live as God wants us to live. The pretribbers I have met so far all believe we sin all the time, everyday and are helpless but to fall into sin repeatedly only able to 'try' and become like Christ but failing miserably along the way and therefore forced to continually fall on our faces before him in everlasting worship until we be given new bodies without sin. Not exactly like that, but it is the general gist that I hear.

Either we have Christ in us or we do not. We are told to have Christ dwell in our hearts by faith. To prove our own selves that Christ be in us except we be reprobates and we see what happens to those who God gave over to a reprobate mind in Romans 1. It is displayed in their works as sin even though they know that those that do such things are worthy of death.

Pretrib must explain the condition of the present visible church who claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. God, who does not change, has never in human history chosen to deliver unrepentant sinful people from destruction but rather unto destruction. It just doesn't fit.