Montana Marv Posted January 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2019 The last day of when. The final final day fo being changed is after the Mill. This is when all the Righteous born during the Mill will be changed. There is a final day for the Bride, a final day for Israel, then a final final day before eternity future. In Christ Montana Marv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted January 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2019 54 minutes ago, Jostler said: Are Jesus' return and the "last day" really synonymous? Yes, they are. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 Jesus declared four different times, as you pointed out, that those who believe in Him will be raised up on the last day. This verse tells us that that takes place at His coming. Again, what ends when Jesus returns? What has its last day at that point in time? Answer: Satan's ~6000 years of ungodly influence over mankind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted January 22, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Last Daze said: Yes, they are. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 Jesus declared four different times, as you pointed out, that those who believe in Him will be raised up on the last day. This verse tells us that that takes place at His coming. Again, what ends when Jesus returns? What has its last day at that point in time? Answer: Satan's ~6000 years of ungodly influence over mankind. Let me check up on something ( this is why this really does take some time and effort ). Lets see if our hermaneutics agree. Hermaneutics is simply a term egg-head theologians use to describe our "philosophy of interpretation" of a text, any text but of course here were talking about the Word of God. I accept that the Word of God is complete, inerrant (that has a caveat or two - I'm referring to the original languages - there ARE translation nuances that need to be studied out and understood, but that's related to the difficulties of transferring ideas purely from one language to another, not the trustworthiness of the Word) and I do not believe the Word EVER contradicts itself. When we run across an *apparent* contradiction, my assumption is NOT that the Word has contradicted itself, but that my understanding is either flawed or incomplete. In fact, over time, as I have pursued understanding of some of the apparent contradictions, in every case the Lord has eventually resolved the issue and I have learnt something very important. I've come to a place where I get excited when I see an *apparent* contradiction, because I'm mortally certain there is a jewel hidden there and if I'll pursue Him for an answer I'm going to learn something amazing. That said, I believe that if I see a verse, that contradicts my current understanding, just one is all it takes, that's a cue that my understanding is flawed or incomplete and I need to go back to the drawing board and seek Him for a resolution, because that Word is PERFECT. My understanding? Welllll......that has had to change more than once :). To really draw this out we'll be all over the map, I don't see any way around it. As He has dealt with me over time, I have also come to believe that the Word is VERY literal. I've had many personal experiences with "spiritualizing" a passage I didn't completely understand, only to be astonished later at how wrong the "spiritualized" interpretation really was once He'd provided more detail. I know there truly are many symbolic passages but I also find the text is usually very, very clear that its symbolic. In short, my first assumption is that a passage is very literal unless the text itself clearly demands otherwise. I have also come to understand that there are VERY few synonyms used in the Word. As in when Jesus said "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" for many years I assumed nations and kingdoms were synonymous and Jesus was just repeating for emphasis. But, a detailed study indicates otherwise. Nations and kingdoms share some characteristics but they are not one and the same. The revelation is in the differences between the two. That's just one example of many I've found, and just that one has influenced my understanding of how end time events unfold pretty profoundly. So, the "Day of the Lord". Is that a 24hr time period in which everything attributed to it takes place in a single sunset to sunset time period? Or is there another way of seeing that? Are there some places where that "Day of the Lord" phrase refers to a 1000yr prophetic "day" and some that refer to a 24hr solar day? Or do they all refer to one or the other? Quote 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. That's a pretty clear statement indicating that from God's perspective, a thousand years is as a single day. I won't try to delve into all the other passages that indicate that in some very signifcant ways God has divided human history in to six one thousand year days followed by a seventh "Sabbath" rest, the "Day of the Lord". Is it possible when we try to compress all those events into a single 24hr time period, we err? Is it possible that some events may occur a thousand years apart and still be on the same Biblical day? After that screed i better summarize My two main questions are: 1. Do you agree that if we can find a SINGLE verse that contradicts our understanding, it's our understanding that is flawed or incomplete and we need more revelation? 2. Do you agree that the Word contains NO contradictions, no matter how much it seems it does to our incomplete understanding until He clears things up? Actually there is a third I just thought of based on this: Quote 2Pe 1:19 ¶ And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[fn] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[fn] 2Pe 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[fn] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. At one point in my walk, I got ahold of that and took it to Him and asked "Lord? Interpretation is part of understanding. If I can't interpret what I read, then I can't decide what it means. I can't know what to believe. If I can't interpret, how does the interpretation understanding is founded on come?" When the answer came back it was this "The Word must interpret itself." 3. Is that something you can agree with? Edited January 22, 2019 by Jostler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristin Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 875 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 757 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/04/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) The pre trib rapture is our hope of glory. Don’t kid yourself. I read folks look forward to “ fighting the good fight” ha! Are you homeless? Are you living without any means of survival? Please don’t lie! You have NO IDEA what surviving means. Hopefully we will be raptured. Edited March 5, 2019 by Kristin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted March 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2019 7 hours ago, Kristin said: The pre trib rapture is our hope of glory. Don’t kid yourself. I read folks look forward to “ fighting the good fight” ha! Are you homeless? Are you living without any means of survival? Please don’t lie! You have NO IDEA what surviving means. Hopefully we will be raptured. Yes, it is a hope the pretrib rapture is the truth. I can't seem to find it in scripture. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted April 13, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,624 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2019 On 1/22/2019 at 4:27 PM, Jostler said: Let me check up on something ( this is why this really does take some time and effort ). Lets see if our hermaneutics agree. Hermaneutics is simply a term egg-head theologians use to describe our "philosophy of interpretation" of a text, any text but of course here were talking about the Word of God. I accept that the Word of God is complete, inerrant (that has a caveat or two - I'm referring to the original languages - there ARE translation nuances that need to be studied out and understood, but that's related to the difficulties of transferring ideas purely from one language to another, not the trustworthiness of the Word) and I do not believe the Word EVER contradicts itself. When we run across an *apparent* contradiction, my assumption is NOT that the Word has contradicted itself, but that my understanding is either flawed or incomplete. In fact, over time, as I have pursued understanding of some of the apparent contradictions, in every case the Lord has eventually resolved the issue and I have learnt something very important. I've come to a place where I get excited when I see an *apparent* contradiction, because I'm mortally certain there is a jewel hidden there and if I'll pursue Him for an answer I'm going to learn something amazing. That said, I believe that if I see a verse, that contradicts my current understanding, just one is all it takes, that's a cue that my understanding is flawed or incomplete and I need to go back to the drawing board and seek Him for a resolution, because that Word is PERFECT. My understanding? Welllll......that has had to change more than once :). To really draw this out we'll be all over the map, I don't see any way around it. As He has dealt with me over time, I have also come to believe that the Word is VERY literal. I've had many personal experiences with "spiritualizing" a passage I didn't completely understand, only to be astonished later at how wrong the "spiritualized" interpretation really was once He'd provided more detail. I know there truly are many symbolic passages but I also find the text is usually very, very clear that its symbolic. In short, my first assumption is that a passage is very literal unless the text itself clearly demands otherwise. I have also come to understand that there are VERY few synonyms used in the Word. As in when Jesus said "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" for many years I assumed nations and kingdoms were synonymous and Jesus was just repeating for emphasis. But, a detailed study indicates otherwise. Nations and kingdoms share some characteristics but they are not one and the same. The revelation is in the differences between the two. That's just one example of many I've found, and just that one has influenced my understanding of how end time events unfold pretty profoundly. So, the "Day of the Lord". Is that a 24hr time period in which everything attributed to it takes place in a single sunset to sunset time period? Or is there another way of seeing that? Are there some places where that "Day of the Lord" phrase refers to a 1000yr prophetic "day" and some that refer to a 24hr solar day? Or do they all refer to one or the other? That's a pretty clear statement indicating that from God's perspective, a thousand years is as a single day. I won't try to delve into all the other passages that indicate that in some very signifcant ways God has divided human history in to six one thousand year days followed by a seventh "Sabbath" rest, the "Day of the Lord". Is it possible when we try to compress all those events into a single 24hr time period, we err? Is it possible that some events may occur a thousand years apart and still be on the same Biblical day? After that screed i better summarize My two main questions are: 1. Do you agree that if we can find a SINGLE verse that contradicts our understanding, it's our understanding that is flawed or incomplete and we need more revelation? 2. Do you agree that the Word contains NO contradictions, no matter how much it seems it does to our incomplete understanding until He clears things up? Actually there is a third I just thought of based on this: At one point in my walk, I got ahold of that and took it to Him and asked "Lord? Interpretation is part of understanding. If I can't interpret what I read, then I can't decide what it means. I can't know what to believe. If I can't interpret, how does the interpretation understanding is founded on come?" When the answer came back it was this "The Word must interpret itself." 3. Is that something you can agree with? Pardon me for chiming in here but it's intriguing to see where this is going. In fact I don't see it as complicated as it's being made out and I have to agree with Last Daze for the most part. The exact term 'last day' is used 8 times in the entire bible, 7 times in the NT, all contained in the Gospel of John from ch 6-12. The term is 'eschatos hemera' or literally; last period of a sunrise to sunset. The meaning and usage of 'eschatos' is the extreme furthest last, so I guess that can't be misconstrued. In my mind neither can 'hemera' which is defined as a period from sunrise to sunset. So in John at least there is a single period of time of a duration from the rising to the setting of the sun, that will be the very last of such clearly defined duration. In every case but one in the NT, John 7:37, Jesus is referring to the resurrection, or in the one case Martha is referring to the resurrection, and each time the same term is used, 'eschatos hemera'. I do see a last day coming and it's not exactly hidden. Everything is going to continue as it is with the sun rising and setting until the sign of the coming of the Son of man, to wit: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven" So the hemera have ended here and this is depicting the eschatos hemera, or extreme last sunrise to sunset. It's hard to dispute this as the sun and moon are dark and the stars fall; mornings and evenings are over. Since eschatos hemera in the NT refers to the resurrection and the coming of the Son of man, there is no need to compress anything other than the 2nd Coming and the resurrection into this eschatos hemera. One single last period of sunrise to sunset, the cosmos goes dark, the Glory of the Lord illuminates everything, the Lord comes and we are resurrected and/or taken alive off the earth. Then because of this "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." it seems the glory of the Lamb at his coming will provide the light as the term in Rev 21 for the light which God gives, and the light of the Lamb, are described as sources of light, like photons, actual auras of illumination in a literal sense. So if the world is to be illuminated after the cosmos is extinguished at eschatos hemera it's the light of the glory of God that will do the trick; and ever after that, I would think. Another point about the thousand year reign which would be problematic given the idea a day is equivalent to a thousand years is the re-population of the earth, the worship of the Lord at the feast of Tabernacles year after year, the deception of Satan, the gathering of Gog, and the march of Gog on Jerusalem surrounding the city. This all has to occur in a literal thousand years. It cannot happen in a sunrise to sunset. Just like Jesus is not going to resurrect us for a 1000 years, that happens in a single day, as well as His coming is not 1000 years long, it occurs in a moment, just like the resurrection where we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. "That's a pretty clear statement indicating that from God's perspective, a thousand years is as a single day." A day with the Lord does not equate with 1000 years. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" In the first place this is a simile denoted by the word 'as', therefore it's not literal. Peter is saying time has no chains on the Lord as it does us. The context further clarifies this; "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." It's not about equivalency, it's speaking to the plan of the immortal God and boundless non-time. To prove this is the case it's likely Peter was referring to David in Psalms; "For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night." So which would it be? Both Psalms 90 and 2 Peter 3 must be truth. Is a thousand years like yesterday or a watch in the night? Is a thousands years a full day? Sunrise to sunset? A 2-6 hour post? I think you said that if there is an apparent contradiction in scripture then understanding is incomplete. I could not agree more. As Last Daze said there is an end at a last day. That last day is the end of the rule of man. Man's Satan influenced government of the world is over as it has run it's course and reached the last possible day of the reign of mankind. I agree that Satan's influence is not fully finished but it's held in check as Satan is bound for 1000 years and is only allowed to influence man and gather Gog AFTER the 1000 years of his incarceration and the reign of Christ. Satan will NOT be walking about whispering and deceiving DURING the 1000 year reign of Jesus and His friends, only after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted April 13, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Diaste said: Pardon me for chiming in here but it's intriguing to see where this is going. In fact I don't see it as complicated as it's being made out and I have to agree with Last Daze for the most part. The exact term 'last day' is used 8 times in the entire bible, 7 times in the NT, all contained in the Gospel of John from ch 6-12. The term is 'eschatos hemera' or literally; last period of a sunrise to sunset. The meaning and usage of 'eschatos' is the extreme furthest last, so I guess that can't be misconstrued. In my mind neither can 'hemera' which is defined as a period from sunrise to sunset. So in John at least there is a single period of time of a duration from the rising to the setting of the sun, that will be the very last of such clearly defined duration. In every case but one in the NT, John 7:37, Jesus is referring to the resurrection, or in the one case Martha is referring to the resurrection, and each time the same term is used, 'eschatos hemera'. I do see a last day coming and it's not exactly hidden. Everything is going to continue as it is with the sun rising and setting until the sign of the coming of the Son of man, to wit: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven" So the hemera have ended here and this is depicting the eschatos hemera, or extreme last sunrise to sunset. It's hard to dispute this as the sun and moon are dark and the stars fall; mornings and evenings are over. Since eschatos hemera in the NT refers to the resurrection and the coming of the Son of man, there is no need to compress anything other than the 2nd Coming and the resurrection into this eschatos hemera. One single last period of sunrise to sunset, the cosmos goes dark, the Glory of the Lord illuminates everything, the Lord comes and we are resurrected and/or taken alive off the earth. Then because of this "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." it seems the glory of the Lamb at his coming will provide the light as the term in Rev 21 for the light which God gives, and the light of the Lamb, are described as sources of light, like photons, actual auras of illumination in a literal sense. So if the world is to be illuminated after the cosmos is extinguished at eschatos hemera it's the light of the glory of God that will do the trick; and ever after that, I would think. Another point about the thousand year reign which would be problematic given the idea a day is equivalent to a thousand years is the re-population of the earth, the worship of the Lord at the feast of Tabernacles year after year, the deception of Satan, the gathering of Gog, and the march of Gog on Jerusalem surrounding the city. This all has to occur in a literal thousand years. It cannot happen in a sunrise to sunset. Just like Jesus is not going to resurrect us for a 1000 years, that happens in a single day, as well as His coming is not 1000 years long, it occurs in a moment, just like the resurrection where we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. "That's a pretty clear statement indicating that from God's perspective, a thousand years is as a single day." A day with the Lord does not equate with 1000 years. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" In the first place this is a simile denoted by the word 'as', therefore it's not literal. Peter is saying time has no chains on the Lord as it does us. The context further clarifies this; "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." It's not about equivalency, it's speaking to the plan of the immortal God and boundless non-time. To prove this is the case it's likely Peter was referring to David in Psalms; "For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night." So which would it be? Both Psalms 90 and 2 Peter 3 must be truth. Is a thousand years like yesterday or a watch in the night? Is a thousands years a full day? Sunrise to sunset? A 2-6 hour post? I think you said that if there is an apparent contradiction in scripture then understanding is incomplete. I could not agree more. As Last Daze said there is an end at a last day. That last day is the end of the rule of man. Man's Satan influenced government of the world is over as it has run it's course and reached the last possible day of the reign of mankind. I agree that Satan's influence is not fully finished but it's held in check as Satan is bound for 1000 years and is only allowed to influence man and gather Gog AFTER the 1000 years of his incarceration and the reign of Christ. Satan will NOT be walking about whispering and deceiving DURING the 1000 year reign of Jesus and His friends, only after. Nice..."a day with the Lord is as a thousand years..." And I have often said-this true, and here on earth a day is still a day,and a thousand years is still a thousand years. "He inhabeteth eternity..." meaning in His presence there is no passage of time. Additionally, as with Noah and Lot God's people weren't delivered until the day that His judgment came down from out of the sky, and changed the landscape forever! Rev. 16 has Jesus saying He is about to come as a thief (hasn't come yet) on the brink of Armageddon. Finally, the bride (us) is not given her new attire until Rev 19 when Jesus is seen on the white horse-THEY are seen stand in the sky shouting His praises! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted April 13, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2019 On 3/5/2019 at 4:12 AM, Diaste said: Yes, it is a hope the pretrib rapture is the truth. I can't seem to find it in scripture. You can't seem to find it in scripture because the Lord tells you He is going to come when you think not. The Lord is obviously not going to spell out when he is coming. He tells you that. Why would there be shock and surprise that he is not spelling out when he is coming? Matt 24 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. IF the Lord spelled it out and gave you a clear indication of when He was coming most would just clean up their act right before He comes. And yet HERE He tells people EXACTLY when He is coming. Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. How is it that we have been told that He will come in an hour that we think not and He has also given us signs of His coming and said, WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, LOOK UP YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH? And then in Luke we see Luke 21 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. In Luke we are told that we can escape all the things that will come to pass. Why are we instructed to look up when these things begin to come to pass? If we can escape all the things that will come to pass, how can we be here to see the things that begin to come to pass. Further, how can we escape all the things that come to pass and yet we see that immediately after the tribulation we see signs of his coming. That would mean that we went through the tribulation and did not escape all the things that would come to pass. If you are having trouble finding the pretrib rapture you might look here. Rev 5 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. These 24 elders that are speaking for those that are redeemed from every kindred, tongue, people and nation have already been made kings and priests. This OCCURS BEFORE any seals have been opened. Which means that they have escaped the false Christs, wars, famines, pestilences etc. That means they have escaped the tribulation, which are the 1st 6 seals that we can also see in Matt 24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted April 14, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2019 5 hours ago, The Light said: You can't seem to find it in scripture because the Lord tells you He is going to come when you think not. The Lord is obviously not going to spell out when he is coming. He tells you that. Why would there be shock and surprise that he is not spelling out when he is coming? Matt 24 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. IF the Lord spelled it out and gave you a clear indication of when He was coming most would just clean up their act right before He comes. And yet HERE He tells people EXACTLY when He is coming. Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. How is it that we have been told that He will come in an hour that we think not and He has also given us signs of His coming and said, WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, LOOK UP YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH? And then in Luke we see Luke 21 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. In Luke we are told that we can escape all the things that will come to pass. Why are we instructed to look up when these things begin to come to pass? If we can escape all the things that will come to pass, how can we be here to see the things that begin to come to pass. Further, how can we escape all the things that come to pass and yet we see that immediately after the tribulation we see signs of his coming. That would mean that we went through the tribulation and did not escape all the things that would come to pass. If you are having trouble finding the pretrib rapture you might look here. Rev 5 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. These 24 elders that are speaking for those that are redeemed from every kindred, tongue, people and nation have already been made kings and priests. This OCCURS BEFORE any seals have been opened. Which means that they have escaped the false Christs, wars, famines, pestilences etc. That means they have escaped the tribulation, which are the 1st 6 seals that we can also see in Matt 24. Actually you are mistaken in this. You are confusing "escape" with avoidance. Jesus did not say "avoid", nobody escapes anything unless they are IN it. Check local prisons etc. This is why we see people in Rev 7 in a great multitude of believers from all nations that went through it. Then in the case of the elders (angels), they are the ones singing. They cannot lie and claim to be from all nations, there only 24 of them. And most of the translations do not say, you have redeemed US, but you have redeemed people/persons from all nations etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted April 14, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2019 43 minutes ago, Uriah said: Actually you are mistaken in this. You are confusing "escape" with avoidance. Jesus did not say "avoid", nobody escapes anything unless they are IN it. Check local prisons etc. This is why we see people in Rev 7 in a great multitude of believers from all nations that went through it. No your statement is incorrect. The mostly Gentile Church will escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass. They are in heaven along with the dead in Christ as they are raptured before the tribulation as we can see in Rev 5. As for the great multitude, this is the gathering that Paul speaks of that comes before THE WRATH OF GOD. This gathering includes the dead in Christ and the church that COME FROM HEAVEN and those that come from the earth - the twelve tribes that are alive and killed during the tribulation as well as the gleanings from the Gentile Church. 43 minutes ago, Uriah said: Then in the case of the elders (angels), they are the ones singing. They cannot lie and claim to be from all nations, there only 24 of them. And most of the translations do not say, you have redeemed US, but you have redeemed people/persons from all nations etc. Rev 5 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. The elders can't be angels because angels are not priests that shall reign on the earth. Yes, those elders (people) cannot lie. They are saying thou wast slain and hast redeemed US TO God out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. They are speaking for themselves AND those others that have been raptured. That is why they can say redeemed us out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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