The Need for a Future Millennium

[Justin Adams]

To answer the OP. I do not need it because I are in it right now.. 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

??????? 

Whose need? Does God need a millennium? Do humans need a millennium?

Hi, Josheb.

Yes, God needs a millennium. One of the needs for this 1,000-year period is to rectify the wrongs done by human beings, usually done to or against other human beings, but ULTIMATELY against YHWH God Himself. It is a time for restitution and restoration of fellowship and connection. God cannot abide with sin. Sin must be paid for and forgiven, but the RESULTS of those sins must also be dealt with. As our mediator between God and men, Yeshua` stands in the gap and acts as the buffer between those sinful people and a righteous God.

You know, God cannot tolerate sin, and He stands apart because He is Holy and Righteous. You also know, a person doesn't just become a Christian, and ... POOF! ... everything evil he has done in his life magically disappears along with the consequences of those actions. I believe there will be a growth period after the Resurrection and people will need to be reconciled with one another. God has decided to give us the time to do that under the administration of His Anointed to be King, Yeshua`, before YHWH God Himself takes over the Kingdom. God does NOT want His children to be at odds with one another as we enter into Eternity.

So, yes, humans, even those resurrected with new bodies, need this Millennium, also.

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Maybe you should define what it is - exactly, explicitly, and specifically - what it is you mean by "millennium" because most of Christendom does not construe the mention of a one thousand year reign literally. 

Well, the Millennium - the Chilia Etee - the One Thousand Years are exactly that, a literal "one-thousand-year period in which the Messiah Yeshua` will reign as King over His own people Israel, expanding His reign to other nations as they are annexed peacefully or as they capitulate to His dominance when He subdues each nation forcefully." Expanding His rulership to other nations, He will earn His title as King of Kings or World Emperor. (Revelation 19:11-16.) 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

"FIRST"??? 

That implies Y'shua the Anointed One is not currently reigning. Is that what you intend us to understand from that statement?

Yes, that is precisely what I mean. Yeshua`, by His own admission within the parables He told, said as much:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (referring to Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (trade) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!'"

Not as much a parable as a prophecy, Yeshua` also said,

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth hissheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King (Yeshua` Himself) say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' 

37 "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?'

40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.'

44 "Then shall they also answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?'

45 "Then shall he answer them, saying,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.'

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

By His own admission, He will rule over His Kingdom when he gets back!

We also have other accounts in Scripture that attest to His reign upon the earth:

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH God), and against his anointed (His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD hath said unto me,

"'"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"

This is a prophecy by David about a future United Nations meeting! After He has subdued these nations, they will think to come to a secret meeting to discuss breaking away from God's and His Messiah's control over them, and God will LAUGH at them! Then, He warns them that if they crossed the Son at all, they would perish from the road when the Son's wrath would be stirred up even a LITTLE!

This event has never happened ... YET.

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

If not then please clarify it for us because most of Christendom also understand ALL authority has all already been given to the Logos of God by whom, through whom, and for whom all creation was created, especially since the KoG came upon earth at least as far back as the first century during the gospel era.

You have quoted from Matthew 28:18, but one should understand that this passage of Scripture have events that occurred before those of Acts 1:9-11:

Matthew 28:16-20 (KJV)

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,

"All power is given unto me in heaven (in the sky) and in earth (upon the ground). 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world (end of the age)."

Amen.

Acts 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 The former treatise (Luke) have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but "wait for the promise of the Father, which," saith he, "ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (toward the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."

Earlier, Yeshua` told the Jews who tried to kill Him for working on the Shabbat,

John 5:2-30 (KJV)

2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. 

5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him,

"WILT thou be made whole?" ("Do you WANT to be made whole?")

7 The impotent man answered him,

"Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me."

8 Jesus saith unto him,

"Rise, take up thy bed, and walk."

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured,

"It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed!"

11 He answered them,

"He that made me whole, the same said unto me, 'Take up thy bed, and walk.'"

12 Then asked they him,

"What man is that which said unto thee, 'Take up thy bed, and walk?'" 

13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place. 

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him,

"Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought THE MORE to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour (time) is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Matthew 12:28
"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

God's Kingdom DID come upon them! While the Messiah Yeshua` was present with them, the One Anointed to be King, the Kingdom of God was present, too! You can't have the Kingdom without the King!

Matthew 12:22-30 (KJV)

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said,

"Is not this the son of David?"

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said,

"This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them,

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (haRuwach haQodesh Elohiym) shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

"Blasphemy" is a TRANSLITERATED word from the Greek word "blasfeemia." It was translated in the NIV as "slander" and is defined as ...

988 blasfeemia (blas-fay-me'-ah). From blasfeemos; vilification (especially against God)
-- blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

989 blasfeemos (blas-fay'-mos). From a derivative of blaptoo (I hurt) and pheemee; (a report or saying; fame) scurrilous, i.e. Calumnious (against men), or (specially) impious (against God)
-- blasphemer(-mous), railing.

"Scurrilous" means "making or spreading scandalous claims about someone with the intention of damaging their reputation."

"Calumnious" means "(of a statement) false and defamatory; slanderous."

"Impious" means "not showing respect or reverence, especially for God," and

"vilification" means "abusively disparaging speech or writing."

So, "slander" is a pretty close meaning of the word "blasfeemia." Any time that one lies against the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym, attempting to change what God's Perfection is to something lesser is BELITTLING to God!

So, for these evil Pharisees to say anything slanderous about the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym, they are OUT OF LUCK when it comes to finding Someone big enough to FORGIVE THEIR SINS! If God is too small, for them, to forgive sins, who can do it?! Who is left?

Yeshua` WAS presenting Himself as the Son of David, the One Anointed to be King in David's place, but for them to reject Him as their King (as they did), they were rejecting God's Kingdom, as well! When they rejected Him, He also rejected them and POSTPONED the Kingdom, taking the promise of the Kingdom with Him when He left the earth.

Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

This last sentence contains a quote from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

In Hebrew, this phrase is "baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," and it means "welcome, Comer on-the-authority of-YHWH."

So, Yeshua` was saying "You all (Jews) shall not see me from now on, until you all (Jews) shall say, 'Wecome, Comer on the authority of YHWH.'"

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

His kingdom is not of this world but it has come to earth, according to Jesus himself. 

No, that is NOT what He said in John 18:

John 18:33-37 (KJV)

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him,

"Art thou the King of the Jews? "

34 Jesus answered him,

"Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?"

35 Pilate answered,

"Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?"

36 Jesus answered,

"My kingdom is not of this world (Greek: tou kosmou toutou = "of-the world-system this-one"): if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

37 Pilate therefore said unto him,

"Art thou a king then?"

Jesus answered,

"Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

Yeshua` didn't use the word "gee" (pronounced "gay"), meaning "earth"; He used the word "kosmos" which means a political, world-system! It refers to these "worldly affairs or adornment!" He wasn't saying that His Kingdom was not of this EARTH; He was saying that His Kingdom was not of THIS WORLD'S POLITICAL SYSTEM!

(All caps are purely to show emphasis.)

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

So, if you would, please clarify exactly what you want us to understand when saying "first" since Jesus already reigns and has been already doing so for at least two millennia. Just clarify it for us. Thx.

Yeshua` does NOT already reign NOR has He been already doing so for at least two millennia! Again, Yeshua` said, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory!" (Matthew 25:31, He was speaking of Himself in the third person.)

That's the best I can do to show you that (1) His Kingdom is to be upon this earth, and (2) that it doesn't start until He returns.

Now, we can be making SUBJECTS for His Kingdom in advance so that, when He returns, His Kingdom will start as large as we can help to make it, but it doesn't actually begin until He is BODILY HERE AGAIN.

[enoob57]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Thus, the Millennium, as far as the Kingdom of God given to Yeshua` the Messiah ("Jesus the Christ") over which to reign is concerned, this will be just the FIRST ONE THOUSAND YEARS of His reign!

There's much more to say about the Millennium, but at this point, I'll turn it over to you. I think we would do well to concentrate on the LONGER periods of time, like the ETERNAL STATE of the New Earth, the New Sky, and the New Jerusalem, and the MILLENNIUM, than the short 7-year period usually called "the tribulation."

The millennial reign is still not to be considered ‘His Kingdom’ for it will end… and as you have quoted above His kingdom will not end… Millennial reign is set forth to fulfill God’s promised to Israel as Jesus is able to do so with a rod of iron and the Church serving His needs in this on this earth… many twist this as not literal but in the presentation of the text there is no permission to do so… it will be a very unusual time in all of the History of this first creation… The Spiritual kingdom of God has always been and will always be as it is bound up in the Personage of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit without end…

[Retrobyter]

22 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

The millennial reign is still not to be considered ‘His Kingdom’ for it will end… and as you have quoted above His kingdom will not end… Millennial reign is set forth to fulfill God’s promised to Israel as Jesus is able to do so with a rod of iron and the Church serving His needs in this on this earth… many twist this as not literal but in the presentation of the text there is no permission to do so… it will be a very unusual time in all of the History of this first creation… The Spiritual kingdom of God has always been and will always be as it is bound up in the Personage of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit without end…

Shalom, Stephen.

For your sake, perhaps the better way to word it would be that the Millennium and the Kingdom will OVERLAP for a thousand years. The Kingdom of God is not tied to the 1,000-year period, but they do happen to coincide for that period. The 1,000-year period, strictly speaking, is about the lock-up of haSatan. I'll stop there for now.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Let me make sure I understand that portion correctly. Am I to understand God needs a millennium to rectify the wrong done against Him? Do I have that correct?

Hi, Josheb.

Perhaps "need" is the wrong word to use for YHWH God our Father. Rather, He CHOOSES a Millennium for His own purposes. It's not so much for the rectifying of wrongs done against Him as it is to rectify the wrongs done to His other children by His children.

The wrongs done against Him were satisfied by the death of the Messiah.

Isaiah 53:10-11 (KJV)

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he (the LORD) hath put him (the Messiah) to grief: when thou (the reader) shalt make his (the Messiah's) soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He (the LORD) shall see of the travail of his (the Messiah's) soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he (the Messiah) shall bear their iniquities.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Am I correctly understanding that is your position? If so then I have a couple of questions specifically pertaining just to that premise. 

1. Would you please show me any scripture that specifically states God needs a millennium?
2. Would you please show me any scripture specifically stating God needs a millennium* to rectify the wrongs done against Him?

Well, in the New Testament or the B'rit Chadashah, I immediately think of 2 Peter 3:8 and 9:

2 Peter 3:8-9 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack (slothful) concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That entails more than just one's initial justification by God. It is also related to one's holiness and one's sanctification. "Repentance" means to "change one's mind," even 180 degrees different than where one was headed before the change.

The Torah frequently told people to restore losses of property and make restitution for injuries. These interactions TAKE TIME to perform, especially if hard feelings are involved. The Torah is not just "the Law"; the name Torah actually means INSTRUCTION.

Psalm 90 is said to be by Moses, God's man. Think about restoring relationships as you read this psalm:

Psalm 90:1-17 (KJV)

1 {A Prayer of Moses the man of God.}

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest,

"Return, ye children of men!"

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.
10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.
12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.
15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.
16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.
17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

That's all I can say. "A thousand years" are irrelevant, they could be any length of time, ... EXCEPT that God has written here in this Psalm, in 2 Peter 3. and in Revelation 20 the SPECIFIC time period of "A thousand years."

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1. ...
2. ...
3. In the Dispensational-style premillennial eschatologies God fails. A rebellion occurs at the end of the millennium and Jesus has to break bad on everyone again. Neither the Father nor the Son is completely successful rectifying the wrongs done because more wrongdoing against them ensues; the period of restored fellowship does not last and God has to abide sin again.

Well, there will always be (until the end, that is) "sons of Belial." Worthless fellows, male or female, who are against God by their own short-sightedness. However, I don't see that as a "loss" on God's part. Instead, God is simply burning off the dross to refine His gold. Until it can be said,

Hebrews 8:7-13 (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith,

"Behold, the days come," 

saith the Lord,

"when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not,"

saith the Lord.

10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,"

saith the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

13 In that he saith, "A new covenant," he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God will win, for the most part, because most have some form of conscience.

Those who choose to be against God, BY THEIR OWN CHOICE have made themselves "dross."

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1. ...
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4. With the comment "Sin must be paid for," it appears to imply sin hasn't been paid for and the payment is the millennium. Is that what is intended? Do I have that understood correctly? Hasn't Jesus already paid for sin and isn't Jesus already the mediator for all humanity, both Jew and Gentile, standing in the gap between sinful man and righteous God? Did that not happen at Calvary?

Yeah, I'm sorry about that if I came across that way. I really wasn't talking about the sin itself, which indeed was covered by the amazing Gift of God at Calvary. I was more referring to the CONSEQUENCES of our sins. The consequences of our sins don't just magically disappear when we accept what God has done for us in the Sacrifice of His Son.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1. ...
2. ...
3. ...
4. ...
5. What extra-biblical sources have you read/heard asserting this pov so that I to might learn more and examine their position and how they read scripture to reach that position? 

There are no such extra-biblical sources, that have so influenced my pov. Again, sorry.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1. ...
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4. ...
5. ...
6. You've said the millennium everyone is supposedly the first millennium. Haven't we humans already lived through other millennium? More specifically, since Calvary haven't we all been living in a millennium or two in which the wrongs have been rectified and fellowship restored? Haven't we fellowshiped with God for two millennia wherein sin has already been paid for and forgiven and the results of sin dealt with? 

No, again I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. The Millennium yet to come will just be the FIRST 1,000 years of God's Kingdom Under The Messiah.

See, many of the pretribulational rapturistic, premillennials which I've encountered all of my life make the mistake of saying that the Millennium will be the "one-thousand-year reign of Christ (the Messiah)." That's just not accurate, according to the Scriptures. As we should learn from Gavri'eel ("Gabriel") in Luke 1:30-33, there's no ending to the Messiah's reign over the children of Israel. Therefore, IF the Messiah's reign doesn't begin until He has physically returned and IF His Kingdom will know no end, THEN the Millennium is just the FIRST one thousand years of His reign.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1. ...
2. ...
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5. ...
6. ...
7. Related to that last question, Are you envisioning the millennium to be ideal? Is yours a utopian view of the millennium? I ask because the restitution, restoration, connection, fellowship, debt-paid forgiveness, and sins dealt with appear to imply none of the negative alternatives exist. Is it being suggested no sin exists in the millennium, or that eventually the millennium restores God and man to an uncorrupted relationship in which sin no longer exists and sin is paid for and dealt with?

 

For the sake of space I will ask only the questions asked be answered, and answered as succinctly as possible (using scripture where available ). Thx

* Let me clarify this question. I am not asking Q: "How much time does God need?" A: "He needs a thousand years." I am asking why God needs a dedicated period of time at all. 

(I'm doing my best to be succinct.)

In answer to question #7, hardly. The Millennium will most definitely NOT be ideal. If anything, it will be a time of INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT!

No, the Utopian view doesn't come until the Eternal State exists after the New Earth and the New Sky are in place, when the New Jerusalem comes down.

I feel that it's important to realize that the spoken words in Revelation 21:4...

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (actually, "out of the throne") saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away,"

aren't said until AFTER the Eternal State has begun, which, in turn, is AFTER the Millennium.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thank you for clarifying that and doing so in such a succinct manner. Humans need this millennium. 

Can I be shown scripture stating humans need this millennium? 

And, for the record, I do not need this millennium. All the things described at the beginning of this post to which I now reply I now already possess through Christ crucified and resurrected and most of Christianity has held this position for the last two millennia. Any thoughts on that?

Hi, Josheb.

You're welcome. I did it in the last post, but let's just summarize in the list of Psalm 90, 2 Peter 3:8-9, and Revelation 20:3-6, with the emphasis on Psalm 90. There are several more locations in the Torah, where God demands restitution when one wrongs another.

If anyone doesn't need this Millennium, then more power to him or her. He or she will be able to step right in and reign with a clear mind, judging the affairs of others wherever the Messiah has placed him or her within His hierarchy of reigning over the earth.

However, I suspect that there will be more in need of this time of restitution and reconciliation than we'd like to admit.

[Retrobyter]

13 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Ironic. 

Peter's argument to his first century readership is that the promises were coming true in his day, their day. They were getting antsy. They needed reassurance. Peter is saying God hasn't forgotten, for Him no time at all has passed. Peter believed they were living in the last days; the long-ago prophesied events were coming to fulfillment in their day. 

The last days were upon them.

The last day was yet to occur. 

Big difference. 

World of difference when it comes to understanding the meaning of the millennium. 

Doubly ironic! The Last Day is PART of the last days! Yes, the "last days" started in the First Century; however, the end of the "last days" was FAR in the future (almost 2,000 years now).

The prophecies weren't fulfilled in the past; they had BEGUN to be fulfilled in the past. Big difference. ?

[Retrobyter]

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The salient point is that those in Christ have no need of a millennium as defined in these posts because they've got all that stuff in Christ.

Hi, again, Josheb.

You're forgetting the main reason for the Millennium. Yeshua` the Messiah of God, the King of Israel, is going to be the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Okay, so God and His Christ - His Messiah - shall reign a thousand years. He will have a TEAM of rulers under Him. "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them." "Those who were beheaded for the witness of Yeshua` and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, nor had received his mark upon their foreheads, or on their hands, lived again and reigned with the Messiah a thousand years." "One who is in the first resurrection, on him/her the second death will have no power; instead, he or she will be a priest of God and of His Messiah, and shall reign with the Messiah a thousand years."

Yeshua` said,

Matthew 12:42 (KJV)

 42 "The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here."

Yeshua` Himself, of course, was that "greater than Shlomoh haMelekh (Solomon the King)."

Here was Shlomoh's hierarchy:

1 Kings 9:20-22 (KJV)

20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel, 21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day. 22 But of the children of Israel did Solomon make no bondmen: but they were men of war, and his servants, and his princes, and his captains, and rulers of his chariots, and his horsemen.

Indeed, the kings followed the plan of Mosheh ("Moses") who was given a plan of delegation by his father-in-law, the priest of God, Jethro:

Exodus 18:13-23 (KJV)

13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening. 14 And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said,

"What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?"

15 And Moses said unto his father in law,

"Because the people come unto me to inquire of God: 16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws."

17 And Moses' father in law said unto him,

"The thing that thou doest is not good. 18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone. 19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee:

"Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: 20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. 21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: 22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee. 23 If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace."

This was wise council indeed, and the kings of Israel followed this advice.

Yeshua` will make the same hierarchy of judges and lesser kings. Thus, He will become a "King of kings," a "World Emperor." (See Ezra 7:12; Ezekiel 26:7; and Daniel 2:37.)

Why else do you think Yeshua` told His parables the way He did?

Luke 19:17, 19 (KJV)

17 "And he said unto him, 'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'"
...
19 "And he said likewise to him, 'Be thou also over five cities.'"

Now, this may seem disrespectful, but it's really not: If you think the Messiah Yeshua` is reigning right now, you ain't seen NUTHIN', yet!

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Furthermore, it's only those who go through your version of that millennium that get your version of its purposes. All those people who lived in centuries past (and all those centuries afterward) miss out. They are still missing the restoration, restitution, etc. In other words that definition of the millennium is quite limited in its scope, its power, its effect, ad this all the more so since the whole of it is not spent in peace love in happiness; it entails a lot of war, tyranny, and subjugation. 

If they are among those who are resurrected, then they will miss out on nothing! As I said, Yeshua` will be building a hierarchy of rulers, both kings and governors and mayors, that will be a necessary part of His Kingdom. Furthermore, I believe that they will rule and reign over those who mean the most to them! And, any matter they can't decide, they will escalate to the next level above them. Ultimately, matters most pressing will go before the Messiah Himself, the King of kings, haMelekh malakhiym. 

If Yeshua` becomes a World Emperor, a King of kings, wouldn't it make sense to have those whom He can trust and those who have done the job in positions of rulership before, below Him? I mean, wouldn't it make sense that, when Yeshua` is busy with world affairs to have someone like David in charge of Israel?

Ezekiel 37:21-28 (KJV)

21 "...And say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD' (Hebrew: Adonaay YHWH);

"'"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save (Hebrew: yeeshuwa`) them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 "'"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."'"

Many see this as figurative. I don't. I see this as literally being fulfilled during the Millennium and beyond.

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I don't need that. 

I don't know anyone in Worthy who does, either so it's a particularly peculiar thing that all the believers in Christ here in this forum would be asked to look forward to a thing they don't need that brings things they already posses in Christ. 

But you go ahead and make the case and persuade us .

Not everyone will need such a time for restitution and reconciliation, but I'll just bet you that there will be a WHOLE LOT MORE who will than those who won't! After all, there's a LOT of "secrets" out there!

[Justin Adams]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` the Messiah of God, the King of Israel, is going to be the King of kings and Lord of lords.

He already is all that!

[Retrobyter]

Hi, Josheb.

To my statement "Doubly ironic! The Last Day is PART of the last days! Yes, the "last days" started in the First Century; however, the end of the "last days" was FAR in the future (almost 2,000 years now)," you asked,

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Got scripture for that? 

2 Peter 3:3-7, recognizing that the "Last Day" is when Yeshua` shall judge the just and the unjust. (See John 5:25-29 and 6:39-44.)

---

To my statement, "The prophecies weren't fulfilled in the past; they had BEGUN to be fulfilled in the past. Big difference," you asked,

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Got scripture for that? 

A good case in point is how Yeshua` read Yesha`yahuw's ("Isaiah's") prophecy in the synagogue:

Luke 4:16-21 (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." 

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them,

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

That is, AS MUCH AS HE READ was "fulfilled in their ears," for the complete prophecy goes on ...

Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV)

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that arebound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. ...

He quoted the part highlighted by bold-faced text, but the rest He did not quote. Why not? Because THOSE parts of the prophecy, like "the day of vengeance of our God," had NOT "been fulfilled in their ears," yet.

Micah 4:1-4

1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say,

"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I can in fact point to New Testament claims some OT prophesies were in fact fully fulfilled. I suspect you can do the same so you should probably edit and amend that statement to more accurately reflect..... the whole of scripture!  

Some, yes! In fact, there are over 400 prophecies that were fulfilled about the Messiah's First Advent. However, there were at least TWICE that many prophecies in the Tanakh! Many of those prophecies won't be fulfilled until the SECOND Advent.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

One obvious, undeniable example would be all those prophesies pertaining to the coming of the Messiah. The Messiah came. He lived and died and was resurrected. ALL those prophesies are all fulfilled in their entirety! There will be no other Messiah but the one who came. 

There are other examples. 

Yes, but again, there are prophecies, like Isaiah 61:1-3 and Micah 4:1-4 among many others, that are yet in the future.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

So it cannot be claimed all the prophesies weren't fulfilled in the past and it cannot be claimed they began to be fulfilled but were not fully fulfilled. The work that needs to be done in conversations like this is a proper exegetical determination of what has and has not finished, and that will never happen by blunt claims nowhere evidenced. 

And you keep making claims without any evidence. 

So I end up asking the same question over and over again: Got scripture for that?  

Beat me to the answer; provide it before I ask! 

I've provided you with SEVERAL Scripture passages which I find work together to be all the proof one may need, but you choose to read them in such a way as to minimize their interactive behavior.

You choose not to be objective; so, "a man convinced against his will,..."

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Which prophesies weren't fully fulfilled?  The Last Days! Prove it. 

See above.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Why do I have to first ask when you could save us all some time and effort by being proactive and taking initiative because...... you know I am going to ask . 

Well, it is a topic I started, after all. I have no need to bend over backward for you. I don't answer to you. Ask away, if you think you need to do so, but I'll only be proactive IF I happen to think of it.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

We know the last days began in the first century (you and I know this but many here still believe otherwise) and we know the ends of the age had come upon them.

No, I DON'T "know the ends of the age had come upon them." This phrase comes from 1 Corinthians 10:11, but one should investigate the way that the Greek words this verse:

Pros Korinthious A 10:11

11 Tauta de tupikoos sunebainen ekeinois, egrafee de pros nouthesian heemoon, eis hous ta telee toon aioonoon kateenteeken.

11 Tauta = 11 These-things
de = but
tupikoos = [as]-types
sunebainen = happened
ekeinois, = to-them,
egrafee = were-written
de = but
pros = for
nouthesian = an-admonition/a-warning
heemoon, = of-us/our,
eis = into
hous = whom
ta = the
telee = purposes/goals/aims
toon = of-the
aioonoon = ages
kateenteeken. = are-arrived.

11 These-things but [as]-types happened to-them, were-written but for an-admonition/a-warning of-us/our, into whom the purposes/goals/aims of-the ages are-arrived.

Putting these word translations into English order,

11 But these things happened to them as types, but were written for our admonition/warning, into whom the purposes/goals/aims of the ages are arrived.

The First-Century believers saw more clearly the warnings written from the examples in the Tanakh (after the death and resurrection of the Messiah) into whom are arrived the purposes of the ages!

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

We know those last days began back then but we don't know when they ended and both sides assume one thing or the other (either it was soon over or it remains enduring). I am unaware of any scripture stating the last day is part of the last days. SO when you make that claim I expect to see some evidence supporting that claim and I hope to read it preemptively, before I have to ask. 

Yeah? 

And for those who might be lurking, I encourage everyone to do a study of what scripture says about the last days (plural) and what it says about the last day (singular). 

Because eternity does not have a last day. It is eternal. 

First, I have NEVER said that eternity has a last day. The Last Day is the last 1,000-year period of THIS age, which ends with the GWTJ, the Fire, and the destruction of the works of human beings.

The NEXT age, begins with the re-creation of the New Earth and its New Sky, quickly followed by the landing of the New Jerusalem. This also introduces the Eternal State.

Second, 2 Peter 3:3-13 (which covers ALL of human history, btw) begins with the "last days" and leads to the "Last Day," the "Day of the Lord."

Malachi 4:1-3 (KJV)

1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up,"

saith the LORD of hosts,

"that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 

2 "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,"

saith the LORD of hosts.

This is how a Day can last for 1,000 years: The Sun of righteousness, the Messiah Yeshua`, glowing brighter than the noon-day sun, shall never "set" for the 1,000 years.

That's why Peter says that this Day begins with ...

2 Peter 3:8-9 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

However, the Day ends with ...

2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

This was also telegraphed by verse 7:

2 Peter 3:7 (KJV)

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition (sentencing) of ungodly men.