The alive and remaining are changed - doesn't that mean all the rest died?

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Yes. That's the same idea I was pointing out, as below.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction

An oblique reference to the lake of fire and eternal torment.

Then we see:

Joel 3 

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there"

Rev 16

"and they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory."

"and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds."

This is during the bowls the purpose of which is to determine if the people will repent or not. It's not to destroy them, it's to get them to change their heart and mind before the ultimate destruction as in 2 Thess 1, from which there is no coming back.

I think the question has to asked, "If God is the omnipotent creator and could wipe out His enemies by giving it thought, why then the bowls of wrath at all? Why not just destroy them with the angel of death and be done with it?"

Because, "Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Psalm 58:1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

Psalm 58:2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalm 58:5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Psalm 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

Psalm 58:7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

Psalm 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

Psalm 58:9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.

Psalm 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Psalm 58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

I'm right there with you. In fact there's a large group where I feel vengeance is needed and right early, and often. I would be most pleased to see it come to pass. I'm pointing out what wrath actually is, forever destruction away from the presence of God and from the glory of His power. And I see the bowls of revelation as pleading with mankind as a goad to repent. They don't.

[transmogrified]

25 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Moses was talking about any tribulation

Yes, the word 'tribulation' could have referred to a tribulation they were going to go through the next day after Moses said this, but Moses didn't peg the time frame to their own lifetime in context...

verse 25: 'When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land...and shall corrupt yourselves...that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land...ye shall not not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed...And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations (70 AD)...and ye shall be left few in number...there ye shall serve other gods

But if from thence...(the time frame is now years later when he would scatter them among the nations) thou would seek the Lord (he used the word 'thou' again here, although the time frame is 70 AD, after all those people had died)...

When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days...

So it was not just 'whenever you get into some tribulation,' but

1) When thou art in tribulation...AND

2) All these things are come upon thee...So the tribulation Moses was referring to was what they would encounter when all the things he mentioned had come upon them, an not just 'when you are in tribulation...' It was when you are in tribulation AND all these things are come upon you...the individuals he was speaking to at that time would have been dead many years before this time and were not the ones who were scattered among the nations in 70 AD even though he used the words, when 'thou' are in tribulation.  

Blessings to you - Gary

[DeighAnn]

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hmm...I don't know about deed removal. Here on earth there is no escape when one is repentant, admits the sin and is remorseful. In fact when one does that the punishment is sure to come as mankind is unforgiving, vengeful, and cruel.

But that wasn't the point. The point is that person isn't going to be exhumed, animated, then have wrath rain down on their person after they repented and were forgiven. Now maybe there is some consequence at a later judgement but we don't see that in scripture, unless I'm mistaken. 

I don't think some one gets to torture someone else for years and years and on their death bed come to faith AND I MEAN REAL FAITH, with a repentant heart and all,  so the person who suffered all that time sees no vengeance at all.  We have to be able to COUNT on the equity of God in this area or what He promises cant be truth.  NOW lets say when we were young and dumb and did some super bad things and then accepted our Lord and Saviour but followed it up with time repenting and making good on that repentance that covers a multitude of sins and as ANY GOOD CHRISTIAN would be upon seeing that kind of change.... THANK GOD HE HAS THIS cause it's hard.  GOD is Just.  So we are OK.  

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And there is this

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I don't think some one gets to torture someone else for years and years and on their death bed come to faith AND I MEAN REAL FAITH, with a repentant heart and all,  so the person who suffered all that time sees no vengeance at all.  We have to be able to COUNT on the equity of God in this area or what He promises cant be truth.  NOW lets say when we were young and dumb and did some super bad things and then accepted our Lord and Saviour but followed it up with time repenting and making good on that repentance that covers a multitude of sins and as ANY GOOD CHRISTIAN would be upon seeing that kind of change.... THANK GOD HE HAS THIS cause it's hard.  GOD is Just.  So we are OK.  

Well, I was a pretty nasty person before the Lord saved me. I don't remember having to pay in any way for my past from that point. I do remember having to pay for my failure to obey after being saved and born again of the Spirit. Let me tell you it was no joke. 

I did apologize to some people I hurt after being saved as the Spirit led me. Vengeance didn't rain down on my head because of what I did in the past prior to being born again of the Spirit. It was all done in ignorance and apart from the indwelling of the Spirt. Now to further develop this idea of being saved without any repercussion:

Rev 14

6Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7And he said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the One who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the springs of waters.”

So judgement has come and the earth dwellers are called to worship the Creator.

8Then a second angel followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great,b who has made all the nations drink the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

9And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

This sets up the coming contrast between those who take the mark and those who do not.

12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Those who do not take the mark but die in the Lord from that moment are blessed. Since this is passage is very near the end there are not decades available in which to amass good deeds to mitigate bad ones.

Moving on to Rev 16:

Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. 9And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory.

10And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 11and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds.

How is this an option when there is no time for vengeance? And as in Rev 14, "Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on." we can't consider these people to have been born again for decades or even one minute. The only criteria is 'they died in the Lord'. So it could be anyone at anytime and salvation or repentance, or atoning for past misdeeds isn't predicated on duration. It's predicated on the same thing as always; grace, love, forgiveness and that undeserved, unearned and unwarranted. 

What if a mass murder was caught, thrown in prison, heard the Chaplin preach salvation, was convicted by the Spirit, had the epiphany, confessed and became sincerely born again, then was killed by some crazy inmate, all in the space of a month, is he not not born again of the Spirit and a brother in Christ?

This reminds me of the parable of the workers in Matthew 20.

 

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Yes. Maybe go over it again.

 

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And there is this

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

I'm not sure what you are arguing for here. Seems you are contradicting your position. 

If you could show me some scripture that tells me a born again believer must spend decades, or any amount of time, atoning for a past life, or some required time of vengeance after a resurrection for punishment for a past life, or any sort requirement to enter into the kingdom of God beyond confession of the mouth and belief in the heart, that would be great.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Diaste

[Selah7]

@DeighAnn and @Diaste
 

All you need for salvation is John 3:16. You are either saved or not; there are no half-saved or part-saved people. The distinction lies in your righteous acts.  These will be rewarded.  So if a person has no righteous acts (good deeds), then he or she will have very little or no rewards.

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  - Revelation 19:7-8

In the case of Hebrews, chapter 8, this is an Old Testament promise mentioned in Jeremiah chapter 31. This has not yet happened yet.  Is this something that will happen in the millennium?

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

- Hebrews 8:8-10

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

- Jeremiah 31:31-34

Edited March 27, 2022 by Selah7

[Heleadethme]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:56 PM, George said:

 

This is one of the main problems with amillenialism / preterism... the understanding of a physical messianic kingdom is central in the hebraic mindset.

Luk 17:20

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jhn 6:14-15

Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

This is one reason why Jesus was a stumbling block to the Jews.....because He and His kingdom were not what they were expecting.  They needed to have their minds renewed in order to understand.

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

@DeighAnn and @Diaste
 

All you need for salvation is John 3:16. You are either saved or not; there are no half-saved or part-saved people. The distinction lies in your righteous acts.  These will be rewarded.  So if a person has no righteous acts (good deeds), then he or she will have very little or no rewards.

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  - Revelation 19:7-8

In the case of Hebrews, chapter 8, this is an Old Testament promise mentioned in Jeremiah chapter 31. This has not yet happened yet.  Is this something that will happen in the millennium?

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

- Hebrews 8:8-10

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

- Jeremiah 31:31-34

It HAS been fulfilled, sis....it is fulfilled in the gospel and that is what Hebrews is saying.....the writer is saying that "this is that" which was prophesied by Jeremiah.  It was fulfilled to all of Israel/Judah who were willing in Jesus' day and are willing now, along with grafted in Gentiles.  The OT prophets were all prophesying and looking ahead to the coming of the Christ/Messiah and His gospel and kingdom.

[Last Daze]

36 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Luk 17:20

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jhn 6:14-15

Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

This is one reason why Jesus was a stumbling block to the Jews.....because He and His kingdom were not what they were expecting.  They needed to have their minds renewed in order to understand.

That may be true but does that negate a future kingdom of God on earth?  Can't it be both.  Many things have both a spiritual and natural aspect to them.

[Heleadethme]

5 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

That may be true but does that negate a future kingdom of God on earth?  Can't it be both.  Many things have both a spiritual and natural aspect to them.

First the natural, then the spiritual.  King David was already the physical type and shadow of Christ's kingdom to come.  Why would God want another weak natural kingdom after the perfect has come?

And how could that be possible anyway when judgment day and the physical realm being burned up happens at the coming of Christ?  Everyone in the lake of fire....who would be left to populate the earth.  2 Peter 3 says we're looking for a new heavens/earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, not the devil and not the unsaved.  1 Thessalonians 4 says we shall forever be with the Lord when He comes.... not back on this earth to be attacked by the devil and his army again!  So many contradictions with believing in a future millennial kingdom. ( We better not be telling any person or nation they still have a 1000 year chance to be saved after Jesus comes.)

Future thousand year reign just doesn't make sense and never did.  We have to start inventing scenarios that aren't in scripture in order to try and make it make sense....called wresting the scriptures.  I used to try, but never successfully.  Now it all clicks into place without any wresting needed, just in understanding that Jesus' rule and reign, His kingdom come on earth, within the believer, His church, is now.

[Alive]

On 3/25/2022 at 7:56 PM, George said:

This is one of the main problems with amillenialism / preterism... the understanding of a physical messianic kingdom is central in the hebraic mindset.

And they were wrong. There eyes were not clear when reading the prophets. I think it worth consideration carrying this forward.

Jesus before the cross was crystal clear on this and then The Holy Spirit continued to shed light after Pentecost.

Eph. And Col. is very helpful in this regard….in further explaining the Kingdom.