Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

I almost forgot.  Concerning the "phrasing" of verse 14 being to you "a bit awkward",  you need to do something with this rather than to suggest that "Paul must have been tired or in a hurry because he doesn't normally write like that."  If that is your recourse on something that you struggle to understand, where does it stop?  I mean, allowing for such a possibly, can we really count on anything that Paul said?  I cannot help but to think of what Peter said in II Peter 3...

This is out of the context and from a conversation with DeighAnn. You keep harping on this like it's blasphemy to suggest Paul was a man and not a God. 

DeighAnn was using it as a proof and I failed to find any such evidence of proof. 

DeighAnn says this, "14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." is proof that we are all in heaven and we are returning with Jesus to fight against all the nations of earth at the battle in the valley of Jehoshaphat.

I'm saying that isn't accurate, and that Paul meant God will bring with Jesus, in resurrection,  those who have fallen asleep, not back from heaven to fight a war. 

In that sense the phrasing is awkward since it can be unclear to some and construed to fit a belief.

And I stand by what I said; it's an awkward phrase.

So please stop bringing this up and relating to anything other than the conversation from which it came and in that context. 

[Diaste]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Just to clarify, my statement was just a nice way of saying that this is such a self-evident truth that it is not reasonable "to suppose" otherwise.  Like Paul when he said, "For I reckon (Gk. logizomai / also translated suppose) that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Rom. 8:18).

There is no nice way of saying I'm unlearned and unstable and doomed to destruction. But I do appreciate the insight. 

Thank you. 

[Diaste]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

For clarification, the question of your last paragraph stems from what John writes concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17 and of his indication that he did not know who they were (vss. 13-14).  My position is that this great multitude is all of God's children who were a part of the New Testament Christian era up until the time of the gathering (e.g., Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:17) and those who had gone on before them, now in their resurrection bodies.  Trying to envision the great multitude John was here seeing, I can understand him experiencing some bewilderment.  Try to imagine the difference between a multitude made up of one century of Christians versus a multitude made up of 20 centuries of Christians---each century compounding the number.  Easily millions and millions, or even billions.  It's easy to imagine John wondering, "Where in the world did all these come from?  Whoa!"

Sure. But the elder did answer and inform us all just who they are and from whence they cometh. So if John was just overwhelmed or not isn't material[but is speculative] and what the elder said is. The fact is the elder did tell us, and the group originates out from within GT. That is indisputable. What you will dispute is the length of GT, which you do, claiming it is 2000 years long, or more; as you do below.

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

Considering the great tribulation Christians as a whole have experienced since the time of Christ, I continue to marvel that so many opt to believe the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17 to be Daniel's 70th Week martyrs---based only upon the words "great tribulation" (vs. 14). 

No! Jesus said the GT will only occur after the A of D, something I have said many, many times; repeating the very word of the Lord about GT and when it occurs. 

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

According to the evidence of Scripture, what evidence is there that such a multitude will be willing to be martyred during that time? 

You mean like Rev 15 and Rev 20? The victors over the beast? 

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

 

As I've said before, if there is a great multitude doing anything during that time, it will be worshiping the beast.  A stark unwillingness to repent and believe will characterize that time.  We know that some will, but evidences indicate that the number will be relatively few (e.g., II Thess. 2:8-12; Rev. 9:20-21; Rev. 13:3-4). 

There is no evidence in the citations it will be few or many. 

 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

This doesn't say how many, neither does;

Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 21Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

This:

"One of the heads of the beast appeared to be mortally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world marveled and followed the beast. 4They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”"

is the whole world except those written in the book of life, of which we have no clue how many. You're just guessing.

On 3/11/2023 at 12:08 AM, not an echo said:

 

Also, we see their souls in Heaven, in Revelation 15:1-4.  In other words, it is here that we see the 70th Week martyrs, not in Revelation 7:9-17

oy.

[WilliamL]

179 pages! Is that a record??

[DeighAnn]

On 3/15/2023 at 4:33 AM, Diaste said:

is the whole world except those written in the book of life, of which we have no clue how many. You're just guessing.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22 KJV

[Montana Marv]

An old saying;  In my grandfathers Day; it took 40 Days to walk across Montana; walking only during the Day.  This also could be affect by the equinox.

Yet those days which should be shortened are affected by hours of sunlight. With the 4th Trumpet; 1/3's of the sun is struck.  Daylight has been diminished and in the process some cooling is provided on earth in preparation for, for the Excessive heat index  which comes in the 4th Bowl, in which scorching heat comes down from heaven.  If it were not for the prior cooling index, all flesh would not survive the 4th Bowl.

Here the total length of time is not affected (days to walk); but number of hours of daylight for each day is shortened.

Just another way to look at it.

In Christ

Montana Marv