Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is not an easy passage to understand. Yes, it is written that they came out of GT, but WHICH GT? The one Jesus said would come after the abomination? 

I don't see another.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I find that theory very difficult to believe, for in John's narrative, he has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint where the abomination will divide the week. Therefore, I don't believe this is the intent of the Holy Spirit here.

Yes. Well, that's what this age comes down to isn't it; whether the individual chooses to believe a thing or not? 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

First, this person who answered John did not tell John how this large group suddenly got from earth to heaven. Rather, he told John how each one of this group got added to the group: by washing their robes in the blood of Jesus. In other word, they joined this group by being born again.  Then we must consider Jesus' words.

Sure, if you just ignore the main thrust, "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;"

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John 16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Yes of course. But that's a general kind of tribulation that has gone on since Cain slew Abel and not, 'never was and never will be' type of megas thlipsis.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I believe what God is telling us in this passage is that this "GT" is the added tribulation of billions of people who left a world of tribulation to become a born again child of God. In other words, God considers life on earth as a sinner as a life of tribulation. But combining each persons tribulation billions of times, it adds up to great tribulation.

I believe this large group is the just raptured church - raptured just before the 6th seal.

And how would that be a never was and never will be again? That idea has to have beginning and an end. With you reasoning there is no beginning nor end so cannot be a 'never was and never will'; you're presenting an always condition. 

 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't see another.

Yes. Well, that's what this age comes down to isn't it; whether the individual chooses to believe a thing or not? 

Sure, if you just ignore the main thrust, "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;"

Yes of course. But that's a general kind of tribulation that has gone on since Cain slew Abel and not, 'never was and never will be' type of megas thlipsis.

And how would that be a never was and never will be again? That idea has to have beginning and an end. With you reasoning there is no beginning nor end so cannot be a 'never was and never will'; you're presenting an always condition. 

 

You are assuming there will only be one "great tribulation." I don't believe that. There has been many great tribulations in the life of those who are called the circumcision. This is proven when Jesus had to add more words about the days of GT that would come after the abomination. He had to add that there never was and never would be a GT such as this one.  

Revelation mentions "great tribulation" two times. I think each one is speaking of a different time.

Quote

that's a general kind of tribulation that has gone on since Cain slew Abel and not, 'never was and never will be' type of megas thlipsis.

Jesus was speaking of one very special and very great tribulation such as never was and never will be. I agree, one person's "tribulation" could not normally be called "GT." But if one were to combine each person's tribulation by billions of people?

Quote

Sure, if you just ignore the main thrust, "“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;"

 I will not pull part of a sentence out of its context to determine its meaning.

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If we take the entire sentence, what they came OUT OF relates to washing robes in the blood of Jesus.  That is an individual thing for each believer. This in no way describes a sudden trip from earth, up into the throne room of heaven.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are assuming there will only be one "great tribulation." I don't believe that. There has been many great tribulations in the life of those who are called the circumcision. This is proven when Jesus had to add more words about the days of GT that would come after the abomination. He had to add that there never was and never would be a GT such as this one.  

And only after the A of D. So It's not a general condition it's a specific time within a specific time.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Revelation mentions "great tribulation" two times. I think each one is speaking of a different time.

Sure. I don't agree.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus was speaking of one very special and very great tribulation such as never was and never will be. I agree, one person's "tribulation" could not normally be called "GT." But if one were to combine each person's tribulation by billions of people?

And why would we 'combine'? 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 I will not pull part of a sentence out of its context to determine its meaning.

But earlier you did. I pointed out you left out the beginning of verse.

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If we take the entire sentence, what they came OUT OF relates to washing robes in the blood of Jesus.  That is an individual thing for each believer. This in no way describes a sudden trip from earth, up into the throne room of heaven.

I agree. It's the aftermath of the trip we are seeing, not the actual trip.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

And only after the A of D. So It's not a general condition it's a specific time within a specific time.

Sure. I don't agree.

And why would we 'combine'? 

But earlier you did. I pointed out you left out the beginning of verse.

I agree. It's the aftermath of the trip we are seeing, not the actual trip.

 

 

 

I agree, there will be days of GT within the 70th week and specifially some unknown time after the abomination that will divide the week.

I believe God combined the tribulation of the entire group. "These are they" is combining the whole group.

I frequently only quote a part of a verse for simplicity. I think you will have to search hard to find where I pulled the part I wrote out of its context in understanding.

[Shilohsfoal]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:28 AM, Diaste said:

The dead in Christ, yes? And when Jesus Arrives, yes?

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise." - 1 Thess 4

This is the only time 'dead in Christ' appears in the NT.

Where do we see a resurrected group depicted? I think Rev 7 shows us a group with the resurrected dead even though it's not said they were resurrected. What Rev 7 does say is: 

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 7

Rev 20 also depicts a group:

"Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." - Rev 20

I don't see written anywhere a general resurrection of all believers from the Ascension, or Pentecost, whatever the marker, to the time of Jesus arrival. I see a gathering of all those alive in Christ at the the time of Jesus coming, I see resurrected at the time of Jesus Arrival those who came out from within the great tribulation, I see the beheaded dead who held the testimony of Jesus come to life, and those who died refusing any and all authority of the beast come to life, at the time of Jesus Arrival.

Taking Paul's words to mean every believer from the time when " 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people." to the time of the 2nd advent would contradict the Revelation. Unequivocally the group in heaven in Rev 7 came out from within GT and from no other time.

I do see a general resurrection of all the dead who did not pass in the GT...after the 1000 years. 

Sobering thoughts.

 

 

 

 

 

Those who come out of great tribulation didn't die. They are saved during that time. It is those who died for thier testimony of Jesus, who did not worship the beast or its image and who do not recieve its mark who are resurected in the first resurection. They die during the 3.5 years prior to the great tribulation caused by the use of the abomination that causes desolation. 

Paul was not given this knowledge. He died before this revelation was shared with us. He was unaware of two separate resurrections separated by 1000 years. 

Jesus did not share his revelation with any of the apostles except John, so thier knowledge of the resurections were limited to the things discussed by the former prophets to Israel who spoke of Israel's resurection.

The first resurection is limited to a specific group of people. Once you learn who the beast is, it's not hard knowing who these are who are resurected in the first resurection. 

I'll give you a hint as to who they are. They are a chosen people.

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Those who come out of great tribulation didn't die. They are saved during that time. It is those who died for thier testimony of Jesus, who did not worship the beast or its image and who do not recieve its mark who are resurected in the first resurection. They die during the 3.5 years prior to the great tribulation caused by the use of the abomination that causes desolation. 

That's what I'm trying to better understand. 

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Paul was not given this knowledge. He died before this revelation was shared with us. He was unaware of two separate resurrections separated by 1000 years. 

Jesus did not share his revelation with any of the apostles except John, so thier knowledge of the resurections were limited to the things discussed by the former prophets to Israel who spoke of Israel's resurection.

It's a difficult thing to know for sure what person dead for 2000 years knew and didn't know. He may have known, he may not have. 

"There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written."

One would suppose a great many teachings of Jesus didn't get recorded either.

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The first resurection is limited to a specific group of people. Once you learn who the beast is, it's not hard knowing who these are who are resurected in the first resurection. 

I'll give you a hint as to who they are. They are a chosen people.

 

Yes. However, what I'm wondering about is the general resurrection so many seem to support and if it's really that way. 

Pretrib rapturists seem to think everyone who died in Christ from the Ascension to the the 2nd advent is resurrected at the 2nd advent. Are they?

Or is it like Revelation appears to depict; those who faced the beast are gathered at the 2nd advent along with those resurrected who died facing the beast? Those and no others at that time? 

Or can we say the following includes even those who had not faced the beast?

" those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands"

If one doesn't have to face the beast does the above still apply? I don't think it does. 

[Shilohsfoal]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's what I'm trying to better understand. 

It's a difficult thing to know for sure what person dead for 2000 years knew and didn't know. He may have known, he may not have. 

"There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written."

One would suppose a great many teachings of Jesus didn't get recorded either.

Yes. However, what I'm wondering about is the general resurrection so many seem to support and if it's really that way. 

Pretrib rapturists seem to think everyone who died in Christ from the Ascension to the the 2nd advent is resurrected at the 2nd advent. Are they?

Or is it like Revelation appears to depict; those who faced the beast are gathered at the 2nd advent along with those resurrected who died facing the beast? Those and no others at that time? 

Or can we say the following includes even those who had not faced the beast?

" those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands"

If one doesn't have to face the beast does the above still apply? I don't think it does. 

Revelation says, the rest of the dead lived not again till the 1000 years are fulfilled. This is a prophecy given to John to write by Jesus christ. I see no reason anyone should question John or Christ or God who gave it to Christ. 

 

PS. If christ had given Paul the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants, then Paul would have been the author and not John. Far as I understand Paul was never sent to prophecy about the time of the end. He was sent to preach the gospel and testify of Jesus. John however was sent to do more than Peter and Paul. John was chosen to deliver revelation and Jesus was careful to give John this task after Peter and Paul were dead. 

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-11.htm

Edited September 3, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Revelation says, the rest of the dead lived not again till the 1000 years are fulfilled. This is a prophecy given to John to write by Jesus christ. I see no reason anyone should question John or Christ or God who gave it to Christ. 

 

Yes. This is true. That's not what I'm thinking about. Maybe you addressed it and I didn't understand.

Would you say then the only people we see in heaven in Revelation are those who died in the GT and those who are alive when Jesus returns? And not everyone from the time Jesus died to the start of great tribulation?

 

14 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

PS. If christ had given Paul the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show his servants, then Paul would have been the author and not John. Far as I understand Paul was never sent to prophecy about the time of the end. He was sent to preach the gospel and testify of Jesus. John however was sent to do more than Peter and Paul. John was chosen to deliver revelation and Jesus was careful to give John this task after Peter and Paul were dead. 

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/10-11.htm

Yes. However we do see a great deal of end of the prophecy in the gospels, prophecy directly related to Revelation; Matt 24-25 for instance. 

It's hard to say just what was learned by the disciples that isn't recorded. Paul would not need to be the author of Revelation for he and the disciples to be privy to things in the Revelation. But I can't say either way. Just saying it's possible.

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Yes. This is true. That's not what I'm thinking about. Maybe you addressed it and I didn't understand.

Would you say then the only people we see in heaven in Revelation are those who died in the GT and those who are alive when Jesus returns? And not everyone from the time Jesus died to the start of great tribulation?

 

Yes. However we do see a great deal of end of the prophecy in the gospels, prophecy directly related to Revelation; Matt 24-25 for instance. 

It's hard to say just what was learned by the disciples that isn't recorded. Paul would not need to be the author of Revelation for he and the disciples to be privy to things in the Revelation. But I can't say either way. Just saying it's possible.

I don't believe the people who die during the great tribulation will ever live again. 

It's as the days of Noah. The flood came and took them all away. Same as the great tribulation. But this time it's not water that destroys them. It's fire. They get burnt up. 

Those who don't burn up are those who john saw in Revelation. The great multitude from the nations. They are saved. 

It is my belief the only people who are resurrected from the dead when Christ comes is israel. 

 

The great tribulation does not begin when the daily sacrifice is abolished. That is when the persecution of the saints in Israel begins. 

The Great tribulation begins when the king of the north sets forth to destroy and innihilate many. The resurection takes place at that time. 

The people who are killed at this time are not saved. 

Daniel is talking about the great tribulation here in this verse along with the resurection. They take place at the exact same time.The exact same day. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-1.htm

The day of the Lord shall burn with a fervent heat and the elements shall melt. It is going to be a very distressful time. 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[Retrobyter]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:28 AM, Diaste said:

The dead in Christ, yes? And when Jesus Arrives, yes?

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise." - 1 Thess 4

This is the only time 'dead in Christ' appears in the NT.

Well, perhaps, but the "resurrection" occurs more often: Paul talked about THREE major resurrections

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that HE is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(It's important not to be side-tracked by the verse numbers.)

Many Christians think this passage is talking about two resurrections, but actually, it lists THREE resurrections, the "zeroeth Resurrection" - that solely of our Lord; the "first Resurrection" -that one at the Messiah's coming; and the "second Resurrection" - the general Resurrection after the first 1,000 years of our Lord's Kingdom.

These resurrections are bringing those who were dead back to life.

On 5/29/2022 at 6:28 AM, Diaste said:

Where do we see a resurrected group depicted? I think Rev 7 shows us a group with the resurrected dead even though it's not said they were resurrected. What Rev 7 does say is: 

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 7

Rev 20 also depicts a group:

"Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." - Rev 20

I don't see written anywhere a general resurrection of all believers from the Ascension, or Pentecost, whatever the marker, to the time of Jesus arrival. I see a gathering of all those alive in Christ at the the time of Jesus coming, I see resurrected at the time of Jesus Arrival those who came out from within the great tribulation, I see the beheaded dead who held the testimony of Jesus come to life, and those who died refusing any and all authority of the beast come to life, at the time of Jesus Arrival.

Taking Paul's words to mean every believer from the time when " 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people." to the time of the 2nd advent would contradict the Revelation. Unequivocally the group in heaven in Rev 7 came out from within GT and from no other time.

I do see a general resurrection of all the dead who did not pass in the GT...after the 1000 years. 

Sobering thoughts.

Something else of which someone should be aware is that the first Resurrection to come - that of those who belong to the Messiah - is NOT just of the "dead in Christ." Or rather, the "dead in Christ" refers to more than just believing Christians.

We also have THIS resurrection:

Ezekiel 37:1-28 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army! 11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say,

"'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.'

12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 

16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, 'For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions': then take another stick, and write upon it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions': 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying,

"'Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?'

19 "Say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes."'

21 "And say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."'"

Some think of these verses as a "vision," but the truth is that it will happen just like this, literally!

When one recalls that "Christ" is the same as "Messiah," "those who belong to Christ" are also "those who belong to the Messiah" and can also include those who have been looking for their Messiah for thousands of years, the children of Israel.