Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Retrobyter]

17 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Second sentence true. Third sentence, misleading.

"The first/πρωτη/prōtē resurrection" is a term used only in Rev. 20:5-6. In the context, πρωτη means first in preeminence, not order. Because, different groups of immortalized overcomers will be included under this heading, such as the raptured saints at the Parousia of Christ, the later-raptured Two Witnesses, as well as the still-later resurrected saints who will have been beheaded under the reign of the Beast-kingdom.

Because this passage of Rev. 20:5-6 has brought so much confusion, I have devoted a full blog to it here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

 

Shalom, WilliamL.

Actually, "πρῶτος" ("prootos") is for order, as well. As in Adam was the "πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος" ("prootos anthroopos", 1 Corinthians 15:45). Obviously, he did not have the "preeminence" over the "Second Adam!"

Revelation 20:5-6 gives enough clues for one to know that this resurrection takes place PRIOR to the Millennium (the thousand-year LOCK-UP of haSatan), and the second resurrection, which is tied to the Great White Throne judgment, occurs AFTER the Millennium.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Retrobyter
to fix a spelling error

[Selah7]

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Selah7.

I agree! The saints or the elect or the selected ones or the chosen ones are all those who partake in the FIRST Resurrection! That's NOT just those who are "born-again Christians," though! The "saints" or "holy ones" also include all those BEFORE the Messiah was born who still trusted God to bring the Messiah!

One who is "holy" is NOT THE SAME as one who is "righteous." A "holy" person is anyone God has SINGLED OUT for His own purposes. Ideally, that person is also "righteous," but it has not always been the case. When God so chooses a person, that person is one who is chosen, one who has been sanctified, one who has been made a "saint." Therefore, this group includes ALL of the children of Israel, as well! Anyone who knew of the Covenant that God made with his messiah David to make his Seed to be the Eternal Messiah of God - God's CHOICE for Israel's King - was anticipating the arrival of the Messiah! 

The number is MUCH bigger than you think! It counts ALL those upon whom the second death has no authority!

We agree!  

[Keras]

2 hours ago, Selah7 said:

We agree!  

'We', directly contradict Revelation 20:5....the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years has ended. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

But 1 Cor 15:23 plainly says that "Christ, the firstfruits".  Meaning, Christ IS the "firstfruits".  This is true because Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a glorified body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Shalom, FreeGrace.

You're absolutely right! If one checks the number (singular or plural) associated with the "firstfruits," one will find that it is SINGULAR in number. The word "firstfruits" is deceptive because of the "s" at the end of the word. However, the word IS singular! And, it only applies to the Messiah when He was first resurrected by His Father after the crucifixion.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Since  both Jesus and His discples raised a number of people from the dead, plus several accounts in the OT of dead bodies coming back to life, Acts 26:23 can only refer to the resurrection body that is immortal.  Lazarus did die again, and the Bible records that the Jews and leaders wanted to kill him after his resurrection.  So that shows that he came back in his mortal body.  The same for all the people who were raised from the dead in the Bible before the time "when He comes", which will be the Second Advent.

These people are not being referenced in 1 Cor 15:23 and refer to something else.  There is no comma in 1 Cor 15:23 between "Christ" and "firstfruits".  It means that Christ is the FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body.

The second resurrection will be only for the unbelievers.  In fact, Rev 20:4-6 makes this very clear.  The "first resurrection" is the one mentioned in 1 Cor 15:23, which is for all believers.  And the "second resurrection" is 1,000 years later.

Right. And, if one is not distracted by the verse numbers (which are arbitrary and man-made), the Second Resurrection is mentioned in verses 24 and 25:

1 Corinthians 15:24-25 (KJV)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This is yet another Resurrection, like the zeroeth Resurrection (the Firstfruits) and the First Resurrection. 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, there will be another resurrection, as already explained above.  But Rev 20:12 is the GWT judgment, where the unbelievers are cast into the LOF.

Please explain what you mean by "raised in their flesh (not raised to spirit) in Eek 37.

Provide verse #s as well.  Thanks.

All resurrections involve the body.  There is no mention of "soul resurrection" or "spirit resurrection" so I'm curious where you got that from.

Yep, that's right.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

'We', directly contradict Revelation 20:5....the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years has ended. 

Shalom, Keras.

Which is PARENTHETICAL to the passage! Verse 5 is a "look ahead" past the end of the thousand years to the resurrection in verses 12 and 13, which actually doesn't start until verse 7. This is typical in Hebrew literature. Again, the main points are stated first, and THEN the text goes into the details. Yochanan, is, after all, JEWISH! This is one of the major reasons why this passage is so misunderstood!

In our Western way of thinking, we see this like the following:

Revelation 20:4-15 (KJV)

4a And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and [the authority to make] judgment was given unto them: [General overview]
(4b) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [Specific group; an instance of the whole group.]

5a (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) (5b) This [verse 4a] is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Retrobyter
To add a greeting

[Keras]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Which is PARENTHETICAL to the passage! Verse 5 is a "look ahead" past the end of the thousand years to the resurrection in verses 12 and 13, which actually doesn't start until verse 7. This is typical in Hebrew literature. Again, the main points are stated first, and THEN the text goes into the details. Yochanan, is, after all, JEWISH! This is one of the major reasons why this passage is so misunderstood!

In our Western way of thinking, we see this like the following:

I don't buy this.  Revelation 20:4-6 reads plainly and straightforwardly. 

You aren't at all clear as to what you do believe, but if it is as I think you do, a general resurrection of all the Christian dead, then scripture refutes you.

The ONLY people that Jesus will resurrect at His Return, will be the GT martyrs. The Millennium will not be populated by every Christian who has ever lived, they must wait for the final Judgment and Eternity. 

Which is what Jesus Promised; John 3:16

Edited February 6, 2023 by Keras

[Sister]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But 1 Cor 15:23 plainly says that "Christ, the firstfruits".  Meaning, Christ IS the "firstfruits".  This is true because Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a glorified body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

 

Yes Amen to that. 

Quote

Since  both Jesus and His discples raised a number of people from the dead, plus several accounts in the OT of dead bodies coming back to life, Acts 26:23 can only refer to the resurrection body that is immortal.  Lazarus did die again, and the Bible records that the Jews and leaders wanted to kill him after his resurrection.  So that shows that he came back in his mortal body.  The same for all the people who were raised from the dead in the Bible before the time "when He comes", which will be the Second Advent.

I Agree.
 

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Yes, there will be another resurrection, as already explained above.  But Rev 20:12 is the GWT judgment, where the unbelievers are cast into the LOF.

 

That is what is preached by man, and the second judgment is not a get out of jail free card like the first resurrection, but a trial.  Many will be cast into the lake of fire at this  judgment, but not all, because as I mentioned before -the Lambs book of life is also 'opened' during this judgement. That alone should tell us a lot, or else that book would be closed.

This judgment is based on works where the balances are weighed.  God will go straight through the heart to see what's inside.  If someone served the wrong God because they were raised that way in the custom of their people, and knew nothing else because the truth was not given to them, how can they be held accountable?  That would be unfair judgment, to say all were created for eternal destruction?  God is fair which is why they are tried and he knows each and every ones circumstances.  And what about all the children and unborn babies who died?  What are they guilty of?

 

Quote

 

Please explain what you mean by "raised in their flesh (not raised to spirit) in Eek 37.

Provide verse #s as well.  Thanks.

All resurrections involve the body.  There is no mention of "soul resurrection" or "spirit resurrection" so I'm curious where you got that from.

 

In the resurrection, the saints will be raised to 'Spirit', not flesh.  Once they are raised to 'spirit' they cannot die ever again and have conquered death.  The remnant of Israel on the other hand consist of all generations, not just the survivors of Armageddon.  Out of all their generations, they are hand picked, so not all ok.  The dead Israelites from the past are amongst the 'remnant' and will come back to life in their flesh like Lazarus did.   It doesn't matter how old their bones are, God is going to put flesh back on their bones, and breathe the breath of life back into them. They will be placed in the kingdom on earth, to learn Christ,....to live to a ripe old age (100), multiply and die again.  Then they will be in the 2nd resurrection.

Ezekiel 37:1-14 is a prophecy of a physical event.  It is not a metaphor.

 Isaiah 49:6   And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 

Romans 11:4   But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

(The remnant of Israel)

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

It may SEEM to be off-topic, but a discussion on WHAT the Resurrection is is FUNDAMENTAL to the ideas of who participates and when. Can't get the cart before the horse.

I don't think so.

@Selah7 is bringing up mortal/immortal existence and whether resurrection of the dead is the immortal state or the mortal. And that's fine, I don't agree it's relevant to the fact of the 1st resurrection and the stated participants from Rev 20, and from whence they cometh.

My point in the OP concerned the teaching it's all from all time and the text in scripture, which are opposed.

If those participants are mortal or not is not in the scope, imo. 

I'm hoping to discuss the difference between modern thought and what the scripture actually says about it, in the context of identity and attribute and origin as stated in Rev 7 and Rev 20.

Blessings.

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

I do so by treating them as all being parts of the same picture. Paul uses words that include ALL of the dead in Christ and ALL of the believers that, "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" i.e. live through the great tribulation. If it didn't include all these, "at the coming of the Lord", for example. THEN we would be looking at a resurrections for martyrs only.  

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This plainly declares ALL in Christ who have passed away will be resurrected when Jesus comes. No waiting for another thousand yrs. They are in that FIRST of the series.

And isn't Rev 7:14 and Rev 20:4-6 part of the same picture? Aren't both a more detailed description of the participants and from whence the cometh? 

It's not only the martyrs that will be resurrected, it's also the ones who overcame the power and authority of the beast, and it's both which will be the ones who will be resurrected to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years, then later the rest will be resurrected on the last day, as several people state in the NT, even apart from the authors of the Gospels.

For example, Martha looked to the last day;

"Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”" I don't see this reference as the 1st resurrection since only an oblique reference in the Olivet Discourse was made to a resurrection prior to the last day resurrection.

I can't find the idea of 'all'. It's nowhere stated it's 'all' by Paul in 1 Thess 4. Maybe in 1 Thess 5 but I don't really see it there either. What I do see is a reference to 'the dead in Christ' likely to differentiate from the living in Christ and that the 'the dead' are taken before the living. But from this alone it's not 'all from all time'.

I don't think one can rely on 'rule and reign with Christ' in Rev 20 to mean 'all from all time' when it's said, " And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." And the 'they' here are described as martyrs and the ones who overcame the power of the beast.

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

 Perhaps you have a new doctrine that all have missed.