Who is Resurrected, and When?

[FreeGrace]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, FreeGrace.

You're absolutely right! If one checks the number (singular or plural) associated with the "firstfruits," one will find that it is SINGULAR in number. The word "firstfruits" is deceptive because of the "s" at the end of the word. However, the word IS singular! And, it only applies to the Messiah when He was first resurrected by His Father after the crucifixion.

Right. And, if one is not distracted by the verse numbers (which are arbitrary and man-made), the Second Resurrection is mentioned in verses 24 and 25:

1 Corinthians 15:24-25 (KJV)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This is yet another Resurrection, like the zeroeth Resurrection (the Firstfruits) and the First Resurrection. 

Yep, that's right.

Thank you!

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Keras said:

I don't buy this.  Revelation 20:4-6 reads plainly and straightforwardly. 

You aren't at all clear as to what you do believe, but if it is as I think you do, a general resurrection of all the Christian dead, then scripture refutes you.

1 Cor 15:23 refutes your claim.  The words "those who belong to Him" refer to EVERY saved person from Adam on.  How could it  be anything other than that?  Why wouldn't EVERY saved person "belong to Him"?  Can you explain that.

You seem hung up on the fact that John simply didn't mention that all believers will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation, just the trib martyrs.  We don't need John to have said "all believers" because Paul already covered who would be resurrected "when He comes" a clear and direct reference to the Second Advent.  So Rev 20:4-6 is simply an affirmation that believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent.

What you don't have is any evidence at all that there will be more than 1 resurrection of believers, which your claim demands.

8 hours ago, Keras said:

The ONLY people that Jesus will resurrect at His Return, will be the GT martyrs. The Millennium will not be populated by every Christian who has ever lived, they must wait for the final Judgment and Eternity. 

Which is what Jesus Promised; John 3:16

No, John 3:16 is about how to receive the gift of eternal life, which is by faith in Christ.

Since 1 Cor 15:23 places the singular resurrection of ALL believers "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, it is the mortal unbelievers who survive the tribulation that will populate the MK.  And at the end, all of them will rebel against the King and be killed by fire from heaven.  It's all in Rev 20.

There will be a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved.  That's 2 total.

Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all say this.  Given that 1 Cor 15:23 shows WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur, Rev 20:4-6 shows clearly that the singular resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years later, meaning at the end of the MK, when they will appear before the GWT judgment.

Fun fact:  the reason the LOF is also called the second death is because when the unbelievers are cast into the LOF their mortal resurrected bodies will die again!  

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, Sister said:

Yes Amen to that. 

I Agree.
 

That is what is preached by man, and the second judgment is not a get out of jail free card like the first resurrection, but a trial.  Many will be cast into the lake of fire at this  judgment, but not all, because as I mentioned before -the Lambs book of life is also 'opened' during this judgement. That alone should tell us a lot, or else that book would be closed.

The "book of life is opened to show the attendees that their names are NOT in that book, which is the reason they will be cast into the LOF.  Rev 20:15

5 hours ago, Sister said:

This judgment is based on works where the balances are weighed.  God will go straight through the heart to see what's inside.

God is omniscient and has always known what is in the heart of everyone.  He doesn't need a judgment to determine.  The purpose of the GWT is to show each person WHY it will be "more or less" bearable in the LOF than for others.  Jesus clearly taught this in Matt 10:15 and 11:22 and 24.  

5 hours ago, Sister said:

If someone served the wrong God because they were raised that way in the custom of their people, and knew nothing else because the truth was not given to them, how can they be held accountable?

Really?  Read Rom 1:19-21.  No one will have an excuse.  God has revealed Himself and His divine power to EVERYONE.  

5 hours ago, Sister said:

That would be unfair judgment, to say all were created for eternal destruction?  God is fair which is why they are tried and he knows each and every ones circumstances.  And what about all the children and unborn babies who died?  What are they guilty of?

No one is created for eternal destruction.  Calvinists totally misunderstand Rom 9:22.

5 hours ago, Sister said:

In the resurrection, the saints will be raised to 'Spirit', not flesh.  Once they are raised to 'spirit' they cannot die ever again and have conquered death.

Paul wrote that we will be just like Jesus in our resurrection bodies.  I think you are kidding yourself about your "spirit vs flesh" ideas.  We will certainly receive a glorified immoral BODY.  When Jesus was resurrected, He most certainly did have a physical body.  He even ate with His disciples.  They saw Him clearly and Jesus invited doubting Tom to put his finger in the hand holes and hand in His side.  So please don't tell me that believers won't receive a physical body.

Also, Paul taught that "those who are alive and remain" when Jesus comes back, will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye".  That doesn't mean our physical bodies will POOF be changed into something "spiritual".  No.  It means our mortal bodies will take on immortality, or as Peter wrote, the perishable will take on the imperishable.

5 hours ago, Sister said:

The remnant of Israel on the other hand consist of all generations, not just the survivors of Armageddon.  Out of all their generations, they are hand picked, so not all ok.  The dead Israelites from the past are amongst the 'remnant' and will come back to life in their flesh like Lazarus did.   It doesn't matter how old their bones are, God is going to put flesh back on their bones, and breathe the breath of life back into them. They will be placed in the kingdom on earth, to learn Christ,....to live to a ripe old age (100), multiply and die again.  Then they will be in the 2nd resurrection.

Ezekiel 37:1-14 is a prophecy of a physical event.  It is not a metaphor.

 Isaiah 49:6   And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Romans 11:4   But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

(The remnant of Israel)

It is clear that the the OT leaders of Israel will have a special place in the MK and eternal state.  

As to Lazarus, his resurrection was back into his mortal physical body.  In fact, the Jews were planning on killing him because of all the attention he got for being raised from the dead.  So he died again.  Even the two witnesses didn't receive glorified bodies.  These 2 are most probably the 2 OT prophets who never physically died; Enoch and Elijah.  So they WILL physically die.  And they will come back with Jesus to be resurrected into immoral bodies.

[Uriah]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

And isn't Rev 7:14 and Rev 20:4-6 part of the same picture? Aren't both a more detailed description of the participants and from whence the cometh?

Of course.

When Paul, speaks about "the dead in Christ", is it a disguised message that the first resurrection won't include the people he was writing to? He tells them, "at His coming." But you are saying that it is 1,000 yrs. after His coming. 

And I assume you derive the "last day" being after 1,000 yrs. from Rev 20 as well. This is another factor that affects one's position.

Rev 20:7-10 is a digression into the future, departing from the first resurrection descriptive, and thus parenthetical. the narrative then continues to describe what happens at the first resurrection. The Great White throne Judgment!

 

Rev 20:11- And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it

Mat 25:31- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

 

Rev 20:11- from whose face

Rev 6:16- the face of him that sitteth on the throne

 

Rev 20:11- here was found no place for them

Rev 6:15-  hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains

 

Rev 20:12- the dead were judged

Rev 6:17- he great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Rev 20:13- judged every man according to their works.

Mat 25:32-45- And before him shall be gathered all nations

 

Rev 20:14- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

Rev 6:8- Death, and Hell followed

 

Rev 20:15- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mat 25:41- Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire

 

Rev 19:20- And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and   that worshipped his image. These both were cast them alive   into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10- And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

At is coming, there will be judgment. (see Rev 11:18). Also John 5:29-  they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

The beast and false prophet have been in the lake of fore for over 1,000 yrs. by the time the devil is likewise punished. This means there had a judgment 1,000 yrs. earlier. That means there was a resurrection for the statements in Mat 25:41 and Rev 20:15 and it would have to be the first resurrection.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Uriah
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[Keras]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

What you don't have is any evidence at all that there will be more than 1 resurrection of believers, which your claim demands.

There is only one general resurrection, of everyone who has ever lived; at the Great White Throne Judgment.  Revelation 20:11-15   There have been a few exceptions in the past; Lazarus was one and the martyrs killed during the GT, will be others, but all were and will be just back to mortal life. At the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium; it will be a resurrection to immortality for those worthy, and to annihilation for the ungodly. 

This scenario is logical, sensible and fits with scripture. 

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since 1 Cor 15:23 places the singular resurrection of ALL believers "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, it is the mortal unbelievers who survive the tribulation that will populate the MK.

You have added 'ALL'.  The premise that all the Christians will be raised when Jesus Returns, is illogical and not sensible. How can people receive immortality before Judgment?  How can immortal people live with mortals? Spiritual with the flesh? 

As Isaiah 65:20 says; people will procreate and will die during the Millennium. 

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

There is only one general resurrection, of everyone who has ever lived; at the Great White Throne Judgment.  Revelation 20:11-15

Except the early part of Rev 20 refutes your claim.  The resurrection of trib martyrs is called the FIRST resurrection, with "the rest of the dead" being resurrected 1,000 years later.  And I don't recall that you've tried to explain any of that.

3 hours ago, Keras said:

 

   There have been a few exceptions in the past; Lazarus was one and the martyrs killed during the GT, will be others, but all were and will be just back to mortal life. At the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium; it will be a resurrection to immortality for those worthy, and to annihilation for the ungodly. 

This scenario is logical, sensible and fits with scripture. 

You have added 'ALL'.  The premise that all the Christians will be raised when Jesus Returns, is illogical and not sensible. How can people receive immortality before Judgment?  How can immortal people live with mortals? Spiritual with the flesh? 

As Isaiah 65:20 says; people will procreate and will die during the Millennium. 

Every case of being "raised to life" that occurs BEFORE "He comes" is a resurrection back to mortal life.  Obviously.  What do you think 1 Cor 15:23 is saying?  it's clearly speaking of ALL believers from all time being resurrected "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent.  Which is 1,000 years BEFORE the GWT judgment.  So you don't have a case, nor evidence.

Your "scenario" is not logical, sensible or fits with Scripture.

Per your claim that I have "added" the word ALL to 1 Cor 15:23 is baseless and totally non sensible.  Please explain ALL of who are included in "those who belong to Him", since you deny that it means ALL the saved.

Yes, Isa 65:20 is clear.  And it refers to the unbelievers who survive the Tribulation.  They will procreate and some will die.  But ALL the peole in the MK will definitely die when God sends fire from heaven.  Poof!!

But, during the MK, ALL believers will be in glorified immortal resurrection bodies, just like Jesus' body.

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, Keras said:

I don't buy this.  Revelation 20:4-6 reads plainly and straightforwardly. 

Shalom, Keras.

You don't have to buy a thing; it's all free. 

Yes, Revelation 20:4-6, IN LIGHT OF the rest of the chapter and of the rest of the book, does read plainly and straightforwardly. But, for some strange, unknown reason, you and Diaste are still not getting the message! I would hesitate to call it "bias," but it may come to that.

23 hours ago, Keras said:

You aren't at all clear as to what you do believe, but if it is as I think you do, a general resurrection of all the Christian dead, then scripture refutes you.

Actually, it's MORE than all the "Christian dead!" It is all those who belong to the Messiah when He comes! Somehow, Christians tend to think they've got some sort of monopoly on that! However, there are those who are among the children of Israel who belong to the Messiah, as well! Also, their parents, like Israel himself, as well as Isaac, and Abraham, would also qualify!

Let me share with you a little research: In the book of Revelation, one will find ...

"king" in 9:11; 15:3; 17:19; and 19:16.
"kings" in 1:5, 6; 5:10; 6:15; 10:11; 16:12, 14; 17:2, 10, 12 (twice), 14, 18; 18:3, 9; 19:16, 18, 19; 21:24.
"kingdom" in 1:9; 12:10; 16:10; 17:12, 17.
"kingdoms" 11:15 (twice).
"reign" in 5:10; 11:15; 20:6; 22:5.
"reigned" in 11:27; 20:4.
"reigneth" in 17:18; 19:6.
"rule" in 2:27; 12:5; 19:15.
and "prince" in 1:5.

Therefore, the combined verses to consider are ...

Revelation 1:5, 6, 9; 2:27; 5:10; 6:15; 9:11; 10:11; 11:15, 17; 12:5, 10; 15:3; 16:10, 12, 14; 17:2, 10, 12, 14, 17, 18; 18:3, 9; 19:6, 15, 16, 18, 19; 20:4, 6; 21:24; and 22:5.

"kingdom" and "kingdoms" come from 932 basileia.
"king" and "kings" come from 935 basileus.
"reign," "reigned," and "reigneth" come from 936 basileuoo.
"prince" comes from 758 archoon, and
"rule" comes from 4165 poimainoo.

There's not that many; so, let's look at them:

Revelation 1:4-9 (KJV)

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," saith the Lord, "which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 

Revelation 2:27 (KJV)

26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Revelation 5:6-10 (KJV)

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying,

"Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Revelation 9:11 (KJV)

11 And they [the locusts] had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 10:10-11 (KJV)

10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me,

"Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

Revelation 11:15-18 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Revelation 12:5-12 (KJV)

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,

"Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Revelation 15:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints (Greek of Textus Receptus: ho basileus toon hagioon: = "the king of-the holy-ones"; other versions: ho basileus toon aioonoon = "the king of-the ages"; still other versions: ho basileus toon ethnoon = "the king of-the nations"). 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

Revelation 16:10-14 (KJV)

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 

Revelation 17:1-2, 10-18 (KJV)

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me,

"Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
...

7 And the angel said unto me,

"Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom.

"The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

15 And he saith unto me,

"The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Revelation 18:1-3, 9-10 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying,

"Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."
...

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying,

"Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come!"

Revelation 19:6, 11-19 (KJV)

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth!"
...

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:22-27 (KJV)

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:3-5 (KJV)

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

23 hours ago, Keras said:

The ONLY people that Jesus will resurrect at His Return, will be the GT martyrs. The Millennium will not be populated by every Christian who has ever lived, they must wait for the final Judgment and Eternity. 

Which is what Jesus Promised; John 3:16

You're forgetting God's promise through his prophet Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:23:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (singular);
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [At the beginning of the Millennium.] 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. [At the end of the Millennium along with the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire.]

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [At the Lake of Fire.] 27 For he hath put ALL things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" [God the Father] is excepted, which did "put all things under him [the Messiah].") 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. [And so begins the New Earth and its New Sky.]

[Keras]

The idea that any human will receive immortality before the final Judgment, is error and contradicts scriptures like Hebrews 9:27...We die and then comes the Judgment. 

Which we are plainly told, will be after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

However, I know Church teaching is that all the righteous and faithful peoples will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. I do not see that in the Bible, but there is no harm done to believe it, so rather than arguing over it, just wait and see, shall we? 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

When Paul, speaks about "the dead in Christ", is it a disguised message that the first resurrection won't include the people he was writing to? He tells them, "at His coming." But you are saying that it is 1,000 yrs. after His coming. 

And I assume you derive the "last day" being after 1,000 yrs. from Rev 20 as well. This is another factor that affects one's position.

I think I may have mentioned something previously but perhaps I didn't do so well in explaining what I think about this. 

In the Gospels I notice an emphasis on the 'last day' resurrection. Jesus mentioned it. The Gospel writers mention it. People who interacted with Jesus mentioned it. So there is clearly a 'last day' resurrection. People with knowledge of the OT knew about this and hoped in it. I could bring up the references but I'm sure you know them, though I can post them if so required. 

When is the 'last day'? I should start a thread on that one. I'll skip that for now.

Two profound things were going to happen after Jesus ascension. Saul of Tarsus was going to a meeting on the road, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ was going to be given to John. Both come after Jesus teaching ministry, His death and resurrection.

Paul talks about a resurrection that is before the 'last day' resurrection that I don't see in the Gospels. Jesus mentions it obliquely in the Olivet Discourse but at that point the gathering of the elect may have been understood to still be the 'last day' resurrection they all knew about.

Paul relates another resurrection before the last day resurrection and it isn't clear just what he means since it's a new teaching in his letters to the churches. In this way, Paul may not even have fully understood since the Revelation of all we need to know about the end of the age and Jesus arrival was yet to come. 

Then Revelation comes along and the teaching of this resurrection is more defined as to whom and when and what. It's likely the Apostles had no clue about what was in the Revelation, since it was a revelation when given to John and all the rest of the Apostles had died. 

So now there are two resurrections; one at the last day the people all knew about and hoped in, and another at the coming of Christ. The people would not be hoping in a 'last day' resurrection that didn't carry some reward or the possibility of a reward. Paul's teaching, and the Revelation, speak to another resurrection prior to the 'last day' resurrection which happens when Jesus arrives; which again is a revelation well after the Ascension.

Paul could not be speaking to at least some of the people he was writing to since part of the harpazo is of those alive at the coming of Jesus. Paul could only be speaking to the time when Jesus arrives to take the living up in the harpazo. It could have been the Thessalonians of the 1st century but hindsight shows us that is not the case. 

In this aspect then, Paul was not speaking to those he was writing to. That could also apply to the dead in Christ that would be raised at the 2nd advent. If we look to the Revelation we see how the 1st resurrection is defined. I think at best Paul was speaking about who would be taken up at the 2nd advent and of that group to be taken up, the ones who died were going to be taken before the living.  This is 'the dead in Christ'; the dead of the group designated to be taken up at the arrival of the King, not all the dead from all time. 

And yes, there is a deeds based judgement after the 1000 years. That seems pretty clear to me. 

"The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete."

"And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

At is coming, there will be judgment. (see Rev 11:18). Also John 5:29-  they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

The beast and false prophet have been in the lake of fore for over 1,000 yrs. by the time the devil is likewise punished. This means there had a judgment 1,000 yrs. earlier. That means there was a resurrection for the statements in Mat 25:41 and Rev 20:15 and it would have to be the first resurrection.

I'll try to get back to this tomorrow. I think I can show this to be incomplete.