Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

In order to find out who makes up the first group, we have to back up and look for the antecedent(s) to the "they" and "them" pronouns that I emphasized.  When backing up, we don't find any possibility of a fit in the verses designated 20:3, 20:2, or 20:1.  Backing up further, we also don't find any fit in verses 19:21 or 19:22.  But, backing up one verse further, we find this (and note the bold)...

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

Is "His army" the antecedent of our search?  It is certainly in the category of a possibility.  Who makes up "His army"?  Let's back up some further.  To spare us a little redundancy, I believe we will all agree that when we back up five more verses, we find a relevant clue.  Consider...

It's a bit of a stretch, innit? In Rev 20:4 we are seeing judges. I don't see how that relates to a disparate group such as an army. 

I'm not saying a member of an army could never be a judge, nor that a judge could never fight in a war; I'm saying relating the two groups of warriors and judges at this point in the prophetic narrative isn't justified. 

You back up to Rev 19:19 in the search for an antecedent but there isn't a connection from 19:19 to 20:4. The warriors in Rev 19:19-21 kill millions or more. I don't see this behavior as tantamount to being seated on thrones and given authority to judge. 

Those two things aren't alike in anyway, more like polar opposites.

I also know where this is going. Others have tried this out to find a fit but I don't think it works. 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Is "His army" the antecedent of our search?  It is certainly in the category of a possibility.  Who makes up "His army"?  Let's back up some further.  To spare us a little redundancy, I believe we will all agree that when we back up five more verses, we find a relevant clue.  Consider...

14 And the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And, when we continue our backward search, we find more clues still...

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

This seems to be pointing to the idea the saints make up the army. I would point out how we are enjoined from killing others. If the saints are the army then they are resurrected to immediately begin fighting a war and killing millions?

Yeah...I think that's an implausible notion and a dangerous precedent; if that's where this is going. Some do think this is the case.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

More could be emphasized, but hopefully what I show will suffice.  Does this mean that we have our answer?  Maybe "Yes" for some, maybe "Perhaps" for others.  Maybe even "No" for others.  Yet, this immediate area of The Revelation is not the only place in Scripture where we find something revealed to us concerning our question.  Let's back up further still, to this that we find in Revelation 17...

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Seems to be like a prophetic puzzle piece that fits with everything else we have been considering, does it not?  And, backing up further, to the book in our Bible that precedes The Revelation, consider this from Jude...

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,

Couple things. It's not clear who the holy ones are. This isn't one of the words for 'saint' here, it's hagios and it means different. It's used for many things animate and in animate. It's 'different', 'like the Lord', etc.

It could be the elect saints but it's not clear here. 

How would Enoch know about the saints? Isn't it true there is an Age of Law and and and Age of Grace? Enoch would have been in the Age of Law, certainly. Even though the Law hadn't been given to that point it certainly wasn't the Age of Grace or the Church Age, was it?

So what Enoch described couldn't relate to the saints from the Church Age, or the Age of Grace, or the Dispensation of Grace, whatever one calls it, and could only be referring to angels. 

 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

So, we have some clues revealed to us through John and Jude.  But, we also have some clues revealed to us through Paul, one of which is this one, from I Thessalonians 3...

13 To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

But, some will ask, "What about the angels that are said to return with Christ?  Consider this that Paul also shows, from II Thessalonians 1...

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Sure.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Based on how the prophetic puzzle pieces come together, both the angels and God's children will have part in Christ's Second Advent.  It must be realized that just because the angels will be involved, this does not preclude God's children from also being involved, nor vice-versa.  Whatever is being believed about such things, we must seek to come to an understanding that includes every prophetic puzzle piece.  On my part, how I see the prophetic puzzle pieces come together spells awesome!

Of course, but not the same part.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

To conclude this post, according to Scripture, God children---with none shown to be excepted---will return with Christ at His Second Advent. 

Someone needs to explain this better, I hear it a lot lately. If I understand...

This says Jesus is bringing the saints down, to be resurrected, to then meet the Lord in the air? 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

With other evidences besides, we can rightly conclude that the first "they" and second "them" of Revelation 20:4 points to all of God's children---even from Adam---having part in Christ's Millennial Kingdom.  And, not only them, but these also (and notice my note):  "...AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY (those before the "AND" and those after the "AND") lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20:4).

I already spoke to this but it's still sketchy. Another point I may or may not have brought up is the antecedent. 

You already separated the two groups. The 1st, one supposes, are pretrib raptured saints. The 2nd are those in GT, one assumes. You backtracked to find an antecedent to the first group. If one backtracks to find an antecedent to the 2nd group who are 'they lived and reigned with Christ', it's these, "who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." 

This is not the 1st group as the pretrib group will not face the beast nor the mark nor the image nor beheading. 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

When understood thus, what John beheld becomes a precious promise to all of God's children---again, with none shown to be excepted---even those who fail to get saved until the time of Daniel's 70th Week.

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Luke 13:39- The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Rev 14:14-16- And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and  in his  hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15- And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Rev 14:16- And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

Of course Jesus Himself cannot tell you the "day" but it IS discernable that it would have to be at the end of this world whenever that is.

Exactly. 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Mat 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 12:32- And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

You previously said that your position is the last day of the 1,000 yrs. But that cannot be. You also posted a verse of scripture showing that the rest of the dead don't live again until "after the 1,000 yrs are completed." That day MUST be over with first! The next day? That would not be a "last day" After the fire comes down and devours those enemies after a little season? It is not defined. Is there definitive reference for that position?

My understanding isn't perfect. I try to refrain from being pedantic as well.

I hope I didn't say the above since Rev doesn't say that. This is what is written:

When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,

The idea behind 'completed' in Rev 20 is more like 'reaching the goal' and not the 'end'. There is also the idea of 'next phase' which is upon completion of the previous phase. "Teleo" doesn't really mean the 'last extreme', 'eschatos' does mean that.

Satan didn't gather the nations to battle in a single day then march them all to the city in that same day. That's seems unreasonable especially since Rev 20 says, "they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints" that's not happening in a day. 

I don't know when exactly the GWTJ happens in relation to Satan released from prison. It's not written anywhere I can find. It's looks like it's after in the narrative but there's a timing gap I won't fill.

What I meant to say, if I didn't say it, is 1000 years is delineated by the single unit of a year. A year is counted in months, months counted in weeks, and weeks counted by days. 

Zech 14 says that year after year the nations will come to worship the King. If both are true then the years in the kingdom are counted in months and then also by the basic unit of the 'hemera'.

Then when the 'last extreme', eschatos, is reached, then, "I will raise him up at the last day.”

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

Luke 19:12- He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Luke 19:15- And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom...

This is followed by an accounting of His servants. Then it ends by Jesus saying;

Luke19:27- But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over  them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

So there rewards and punishments when He returns, no waiting centuries. Servants and enemies.

The 1000 yr. shoe won't fit this teaching.

Not in isolation. Alone it can be made to say anything. The modern church is adept at isolation and explanation. 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

Rev 6:16- And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Either people worldwide have been studying up on the bible or they are terrified to SEE His face and His throne when He appears at His second coming. I have a guess for what color His throne is. 

Rev 11:18- (NIV et al) The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead...

Timing for events is not easy to discern in scripture. The best we have is timing in relation to other events, unless scripture gives a time or duration. 

Just because we see a throne doesn't mean that at that exact moment every action or event that same throne is associated with must occur simultaneously.

Certainly you can't be thinking all 37 mentions of 'throne' in Revelation are all simultaneous events. 

There is an order. It's not easy to see. I see some of it adequately, in no way perfectly. The only perfect part of my understanding of the order of Revelation is that a perfect order exists.

I'm only pointing out what the scripture says about Who? and When? 

Really the eschatos hemera needs a thread of it's own.

[Diaste]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:58 AM, Selah7 said:

Yikes!  For real? 
 

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV)

Beyond @Retrobyter commentary, who is 'all'? It's not clearly defined. Paul isn't only speaking to those in the 1st century. He can't be since the Lord did not return in the ensuing 2000 years to date. Paul is only speaking to the living, who will be living when the Lord returns, being transformed. 

So who is the 'all'? We like to gap fill and say it's everyone from all time. 

I point out Rev 7, 'who came out from within great tribulation' and Rev 20, ' beheaded and overcoming the power and authority of the beast' as the definition of 'all'.

'All' here can be defined as 'the group who are changed' and not necessarily 'every believer from Adam to the 2nd advent'. 

Paul is saying, "Everyone taken will be changed" not, 'everyone is taken'.

[Diaste]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:51 AM, Selah7 said:

and so he was.  Do you know what paradise is?

…

addendum:  You might want to check out Luke 16:19-26.

That really doesn't address the point. No matter. It's not on topic. Maybe someone will start a new topic.

 

[Uriah]

31 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Timing for events is not easy to discern in scripture.

And as you said, they are tied to other events in this case. 

Mat 13:47- Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48- Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Mat 13:49- So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat 13:50- And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:57- Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

This comes right after the wheat and tares parable where Jesus says;

v. 38- The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom

That' us! It cannot be only part of the field being reaped.

v. 40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 

As far as I can tell, people aren't thrown into the fire only after having a "hearing"- JUDGMENT.  

v. 43- Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

It is at the, "END of THIS WORLD". (v. 40) There is, "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3:6) that ended with the flood. There is, "this world" as Jesus said above. And there is, "the world to come" also referred to by Jesus. 

Where in the worlds do you think this event fits?  Apparently, the disciples had no problem understanding these things. And I don't think Jesus changed it up in Rev. 20.

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven,  saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That seems to be quite a big deal. And sure enough, those people in Rev 20 are raised at that time as well because it is, "the time of the dead."

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, @Selah7;

Okay, last verse in question:

Luke 23:39-43 (KJV)

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying,

"If thou be Christ, save thyself and us!"

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying,

"Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss!"

42 And he said unto Jesus,

"Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

43 And Jesus said unto him,

"Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Now, consider the events that followed the crucifixion death of our Lord:

First, in the same Gospel:

Luke 23:44-24:53 (KJV)

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,

"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit":

and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. 47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying,

"Certainly this was a righteous man."

48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. 49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counseller; and he was a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: 5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them,

"Why seek ye the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 7 Saying, 'The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'"

8 And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. 12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore (60) furlongs. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. 17 And he said unto them,

"What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?"

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him,

"Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?"

19 And he said unto them,

"What things?"

And they said unto him,

"Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; 23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. 24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not."

25 Then he said unto them,

"O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?"

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29 But they constrained him, saying,

"Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent."

And he went in to tarry with them. 30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32 And they said one to another,

"Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34 Saying,

"The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon!"

35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them,

"These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them,

"Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: 53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

 

Matthew 27:45-28:20 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!"

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him!"

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. 61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63 Saying,

"Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, 'After three days I will rise again.' 64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, 'He is risen from the dead!': so the last error shall be worse than the first!"

65 Pilate said unto them,

"Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can."

66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women,

"Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you."

8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying,

"All hail!"

And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 10 Then said Jesus unto them,

"Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me."

11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. 12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, 13 Saying,

"Say ye, 'His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.' 14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you."

15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

 

Mark 15:27-16:20 (KJV)

27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. 28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith,

"And he was numbered with the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12) 

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying,

"Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, 30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross!"

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes,

"He saved others; himself he cannot save. 32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe."

And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is, being interpreted, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said,

"Behold, he calleth Elias!"

36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying,

"Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down!"

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said,

"Truly this man was the Son of God!"

40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.

42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counseller, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves,

"Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?"

4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them,

"Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. 7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you."

8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. 10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them,

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

John 19:16-21:25 (KJV)

16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: 18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. 19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was,

"JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS."

20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. 21Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate,

"Write not, 'The King of the Jews'; but that 'he said, "I am King of the Jews."'"

22 Pilate answered,

"What I have written I have written."

23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. 24 They said therefore among themselves,

"Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be":

that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith,

"They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots." (Psalm 22:18)

These things therefore the soldiers did. 

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother,

"Woman, behold thy son!"

27 Then saith he to the disciple,

"Behold thy mother!"

And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith,

"I thirst."

29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,

"It is finished!":

and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled,

"A bone of him shall not be broken." (Exodus 12:46; Numbers 9:12; Psalm 34:20)

37 And again another scripture saith,

"They shall look on him whom they pierced." (Zechariah 12:10)

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. 39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them,

"They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him."

3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. 4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. 5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. 6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her,

"Woman, why weepest thou?"

She saith unto them,

"Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him."

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou?"

She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him,

"Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away."

16 Jesus saith unto her,

"Mary."

She turned herself, and saith unto him,

"Rabboni!"; which is to say, "Master!"

17 Jesus saith unto her,

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again,

"Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them,

"Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him,

"We have seen the Lord!"

But he said unto them,

"Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe!"

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said,

"Peace be unto you."

27 Then saith he to Thomas,

"Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him,

"My Lord and my God!"

29 Jesus saith unto him,

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself. 2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples. 3 Simon Peter saith unto them,

"I go a fishing."

They say unto him,

"We also go with thee."

They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing. 4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus saith unto them,

"Children, have ye any meat?"

They answered him,

"No."

6 And he said unto them,

"Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find."

They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. 7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter,

"It is the Lord!"

Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea. 8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits [about 300 feet],) dragging the net with fishes.

9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread. 10 Jesus saith unto them,

"Bring of the fish which ye have now caught."

11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

12 Jesus saith unto them,

"Come and dine."

And none of the disciples durst ask him, "Who art thou?" knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. 14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter,

"Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?"

He saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee."

He saith unto him,

"Feed my lambs."

16 He saith to him again the second time,

"Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?"

He saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee."

He saith unto him,

"Feed my sheep."

17 He saith unto him the third time,

"Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?"

Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Lovest thou me?" And he said unto him,

"Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee."

Jesus saith unto him,

"Feed my sheep. 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not."

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him,

"Follow me."

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, "Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?" 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus,

"Lord, and what shall this man do?"

22 Jesus saith unto him,

"If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, "He shall not die"; but, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

 

Now, in all four accounts, where could have Yeeshuwa` been with the thief on the cross that same day? What are the possibilities, based upon these accounts?

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

On 2/9/2023 at 3:58 AM, Selah7 said:

Yikes!  For real? 
 

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV)

Beyond @Retrobyter commentary, who is 'all'? It's not clearly defined. Paul isn't only speaking to those in the 1st century. He can't be since the Lord did not return in the ensuing 2000 years to date. Paul is only speaking to the living, who will be living when the Lord returns, being transformed. 

So who is the 'all'? We like to gap fill and say it's everyone from all time. 

I point out Rev 7, 'who came out from within great tribulation' and Rev 20, ' beheaded and overcoming the power and authority of the beast' as the definition of 'all'.

'All' here can be defined as 'the group who are changed' and not necessarily 'every believer from Adam to the 2nd advent'. 

Paul is saying, "Everyone taken will be changed" not, 'everyone is taken'.

If you read carefully @Diaste, you will see that 1 Corinthians 15:52 is talking about what happens at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.  And when does this happen? at the last trump which is the 7th trump.  Those changed are those alive then—at the 7th trump.  EVERYONE in that twinkling moment will be changed from flesh body to spiritual body. It’s so simple!

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Not really. The pattern in the seven subletters is VISIBLE just in the wording! EVERY ONE of those subletters has something promised to the "one who overcomes!" That is a pattern, like it or not!

I must apologize.  What you call a pattern, I call precept on precept.  Seems I misunderstood what you meant by pattern is all.  Again, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, and I agree there are 'patterns/precepts on precepts'.  

[Selah7]

4 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Paul is saying, "Everyone taken will be changed" not, 'everyone is taken'.

Where in Scripture does it say, “Everyone taken will be changed”  Taken?  Taken where?