Who is Resurrected, and When?

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

FreeGrace said: 

And there's the rub.  He CAN'T show from Scripture anything he claims.  Because Scripture doesn't say what he claims.

Fascinating.

I use the "Berean verification method" for determining who has the truth.

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

You can't go wrong when using their method of verification.  Does the person say what the Bible says?

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Maybe. Not really how Zech 14 reads. 

It's more like an overview of Jesus return as the Conquering King to the rule of Jesus, the Benevolent King. 

It's like, the word heaven doesn't even appear in Zech 14. Things like, winter, summer, days and years; place locations on earth like mountains and seas, cites, nations, etc., do appear. Almost like the location of Zech 14 is on earth. 

Weird.

Zechariah 14:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 being the Lord's day in fire and final judgement, as men are "consumed" by the Lord's fire while standing on their feet

Jesus Is The Lord

(The Day Of The Lord)

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Edited February 27, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Psa 8:3-4 KJV ³ When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; ⁴ What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

The palmist asks the question, why are you mindful (attend to the affairs)  of man,  considering the greatness of thy creation.   It's because he considers man and his eternal offspring,  the epitome of his creation. 

Psa 139:1-24 KJV ¹ To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. ² Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. ³ Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. ⁴ For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. ⁵ Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. ⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. ⁷ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? ⁸ If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. ⁹ If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; ¹⁰ Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. ¹¹ If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. ¹² Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. ¹³ For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. ¹⁴ I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. ¹⁵ My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. ¹⁶ Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. ¹⁷ How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! ¹⁸ If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. ¹⁹ Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. ²⁰ For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. ²¹ Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? ²² I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. ²³ Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: ²⁴ And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

This psalm is not saying that God is everywhere,  but that God attends unto the affairs of man wherever he may go.   He will rightly judge man,  both good and bad because he ever attends unto all the affairs of men.  Does man dwell in the far reaches of God's creation?  If and when he does,  God will be there with man.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

We disagree, "God is Omnipresent" and its not changing with me anytime soon

Isaiah 66:1KJV

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Edited February 27, 2023 by truth7t7

[Your closest friendnt]

10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Psa 8:3-4 KJV ³ When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; ⁴ What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

The palmist asks the question, why are you mindful (attend to the affairs)  of man,  considering the greatness of thy creation.   It's because he considers man and his eternal offspring,  the epitome of his creation. 

Psa 139:1-24 KJV ¹ To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. ² Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. ³ Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. ⁴ For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. ⁵ Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. ⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. ⁷ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? ⁸ If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. ⁹ If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; ¹⁰ Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. ¹¹ If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. ¹² Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. ¹³ For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. ¹⁴ I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. ¹⁵ My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. ¹⁶ Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. ¹⁷ How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! ¹⁸ If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. ¹⁹ Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. ²⁰ For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. ²¹ Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? ²² I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. ²³ Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: ²⁴ And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

This psalm is not saying that God is everywhere,  but that God attends unto the affairs of man wherever he may go.   He will rightly judge man,  both good and bad because he ever attends unto all the affairs of men.  Does man dwell in the far reaches of God's creation?  If and when he does,  God will be there with man.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Thank you for your beautiful comments.

God knows what he needs to know if he is not there...He knows the thoughts of men...and we cannot limit him to that...because his Spirit searches all things that he needs to know...we say that we cannot hide from him and that does not mean because he is there or everywhere.. look at the examples we have in the bible..starting from Adam...

He knows what they do and say the devil worshipers..when they do their service ...but that does not mean he is there unless one of his own happens to be there for some reason...Then He is with him...

Knowing better than the poet we know that God is not in the underworld...he does not need to know what is happening down there...but he still knows what he needed to know.  And God had set the boundaries of the place of Abraham and it was off limits to the God of the dead Hades...

Because he was their God and they were alive to him even though he was not there...

They had died physically but they were alive to God, they were alive to God while they lived and they continued to be alive to him after their phycical death....After Jesus Christ death on the Cross.. the scripture was fulfilled that say:  "all the people God had he gave them to me...author Jesus Christ ". 

So the Devil, Death and Hades were off the limits of Abraham's Bossom...

Even in this Life when they lived and were obedient to God...they were off limit to then.

Even before Jesus Christ...

When the children of the Lord died ....Death was not there...they died physically but Death was not there to Harvest them for Hades...Both were off limits because the children of the Lord were alive to him and continue to be alive to him after their death...

Is this too difficult...to understand it...

Edited February 28, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[not an echo]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/20/2023 at 10:44 PM, not an echo said:

Because we have evidences of when this resurrection occurs, this evidence will serve us concerning our "last day" question.  Note that right after Paul spoke to the Thessalonians about "the dead in Christ" rising and those that "are alive and remain" being "caught up",  he said this to them in chapter five...

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Consider:  The "Day of the Lord" or "that day" that Paul spoke of above begins the same day that the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:12-17, esp. vs. 17).  This is in fulfillment of the part of Joel's prophecy---quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:20/Joel 2:31)---that concerns this day.  Also, the event of the beginning of this day joins hard to the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, at which time "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29-31).  All these scriptures are like prophetic puzzle pieces that come together and interconnect with pieces we find in John's account of the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also relating to the opening of the 6th Seal is the "great multitude" that John sees at this time, which understandably becomes a big focus of attention (Rev. 7:9-17)!

This isn't a thread for your take on the Pretrib Rapture. 

We are discussing Who is Resurrected, and When? in the context provided in the OP, with that evidence, and those conclusions.

With these many long posts that fail to directly address the OP, this is looking more and more like an attempted derailing. I would ask you to stop doing this.

Hello Diaste,

First of all, I have no interest in derailing your thread.  My seven posts so far merely represent some little studies and a systematic approach to answering your question and what has seemed to interest you in the course of your thread.  What is on my heart is to use three more posts (this being one of them) to respond to the replies that you have made to the studies I have put forth.  This is all that has been on my heart from the beginning.  After this, it is already on my heart to be finished here at that time.  When finished, my hope is that I will have made a worthy contribution to your thread.  My 10 posts will amount to one thread page---not overmuch for a 170+ page thread, IMHO.  When finished, on my part, I will courteously acquiesce to you having the last word(s), agree or not, in whole or in part.

On 2/11/2023 at 5:29 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/10/2023 at 10:22 PM, not an echo said:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice the first "they" and the second "them" in the opening words of this verse.  Who are these?  I submit that they are not those spoken of after the "and" that I have emphasized.  Consider closely:  There are two groups of saved being spoken of here.

Okay. If that's true then what do we do with "they lived and reigned with Christ"?

Beginning here, I want to now go back and speak to some of the replies you have made to the little studies I have provided.  The above was from my first one (page 122, post 8).  The answer to your question is quite simple and natural.  The "they" you are speaking of is the last "they" of the sentence, and according to the context, includes everyone spoken of in the sentence.  This is also reinforced in verse 6, which reads...

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I hope you will go back and look again at all that I have showed.  If you still do not agree, that's okay with me.  I am helped by such discussions, and my prayer is that you will be as well, at least in some way.

On 2/11/2023 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/10/2023 at 10:22 PM, not an echo said:

Is "His army" the antecedent of our search?  It is certainly in the category of a possibility.  Who makes up "His army"?  Let's back up some further.  To spare us a little redundancy, I believe we will all agree that when we back up five more verses, we find a relevant clue.  Consider...

14 And the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And, when we continue our backward search, we find more clues still...

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

This seems to be pointing to the idea the saints make up the army. I would point out how we are enjoined from killing others. If the saints are the army then they are resurrected to immediately begin fighting a war and killing millions?

Yeah...I think that's an implausible notion and a dangerous precedent; if that's where this is going. Some do think this is the case.

In the course of your thread, it seems that the main problem you have concerning God's children being a part of the "armies" returning with Christ at His Second Advent is your thinking that it would not be appropriate for us to be involved in the blood shed and killing of the beast and those gathered with him.  I can appreciate your aversion to such, but where do you get it that we will be involved in this way?  We know that Jesus will be (Rev. 19:15), but it's not like He would need our help.  The thing of our being a part of the "armies" does not necessitate that we fight at all.  How many that have been in armies over the ages never actually took part in any combat?  Most of those I know of who have been a part of our own U.S. military never actually were in combat.  But, they were no less a part of our military.  I can't say Diaste, perhaps when we are in our glorified bodies and realize the full extent of the evil gathered against Christ at His Second Advent, we will feel differently.  Whatever the case, taking the position that we will not return with Him at His Second Advent is in conflict with what has been revealed to us (e.g., I Thess. 3:13; Jude 14; Rev. 17:14). 

On 2/12/2023 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/11/2023 at 2:15 PM, not an echo said:

Continuing, in Revelation 4-5 John tells of the invite he received to the place of God's throne in Heaven where he took part in the ceremony that was for the purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  At the climax of the ceremony, all the saved that were in Heaven at that time---which would have included all from Adam until the time of John's invite---praised the Lamb thus, as recorded in chapter five...

Absolutely not. My word, that's an bold assumption. Where does scripture show such a group in heaven as you say? It's not in Rev 4 or 5.

We do see this:

"Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands."

There are no believers here from Adam to John's time. Where do you get this?

Your reply here was in response to the second part of my study (page 124, post 3).  Just before what you show that John writes of in Revelation 5:11, he writes this...

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, John writes of his invite to take part in this ceremony, which was for the evident purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book.  If all of God's children go to Heaven when their body dies (or goes to sleep), they would have all been in Heaven when John got his invite---whether he would have been allowed to see them or not.  Consider my preceding study again (page 159, post 2), where I do a walk through of God's children and where they went when their time in this life was done---both in the O.T. days and into the N.T. days.  Not only this, but I gave other supporting Scripture.  In partial reply to that study, you make the statement, "So?  People are in heaven. A bunch of people have lived and died and gone to heaven.  I don't dispute that."  If you don't dispute that, you have to concede that they would have been in Heaven when John got his invite.  And, if you are not against using logic, you could rightly conclude that he saw them there, as evidenced by what he says in verses 9-10 above.

If you do not believe that everyone who had died from Adam to the time that John got his invite was there, how would you arrive at such a conclusion---based on Scripture?  Something for another thread?  Perhaps.  But something also related to this one.

On 2/12/2023 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/11/2023 at 2:15 PM, not an echo said:

Making the tie in with what I have already shown, it is during the 7th Trumpet period that the event of Christ's Second Advent will take place, of which John wrote these words from chapter 17 (which I previously pointed out)...

14 These (speaking of the beast and those in league with him) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Yes. But just who is that? It's not defined. You assume and gap fill. Where does this say it's 'all believers from all time'? In fact the idea it's all believers from all time is an assumption based on the fallacy of gap filling.

If it's an assumption, it's based upon what is consistently revealed to us throughout Scripture and the logical answer to this question:  All Scripture considered, who else would these have been?

More to come...

(page 173, post 5)

Edited March 12, 2023 by not an echo
add post info

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Zechariah 14:12 and 2 Peter 3:10 being the Lord's day in fire and final judgement, as men are "consumed" by the Lord's fire while standing on their feet

Jesus Is The Lord

(The Day Of The Lord)

Zechariah 14:1 & 12KJV

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Cherry picking.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I use the "Berean verification method" for determining who has the truth.

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

You can't go wrong when using their method of verification.  Does the person say what the Bible says?

How interesting.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

On 2/11/2023 at 4:29 AM, Diaste said:

On 2/10/2023 at 9:22 PM, not an echo said:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice the first "they" and the second "them" in the opening words of this verse.  Who are these?  I submit that they are not those spoken of after the "and" that I have emphasized.  Consider closely:  There are two groups of saved being spoken of here.

Okay. If that's true then what do we do with "they lived and reigned with Christ"?

Beginning here, I want to now go back and speak to some of the replies you have made to the little studies I have provided.  The above was from my first one (page 122, post 9).  The answer to your question is quite simple and natural.  The "they" you are speaking of is the last "they" of the sentence, and according to the context, includes everyone spoken of in the sentence.  This is also reinforced in verse 6, which reads...

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I hope you will go back and look again at all that I have showed.  If you still do not agree, that's okay with me.  I am helped by such discussions, and my prayer is that you will be as well, at least in some way.

It's not whether I agree or not. I'm pointing out what the scripture says about who lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years as written in Rev 20:4-6.

 

 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

In the course of your thread, it seems that the main problem you have concerning God's children being a part of the "armies" returning with Christ at His Second Advent is your thinking that it would not be appropriate for us to be involved in the blood shed and killing of the beast and those gathered with him.  I can appreciate your aversion to such, but where do you get it that we will be involved in this way?  We know that Jesus will be (Rev. 19:15), but it's not like He would need our help.  The thing of our being a part of the "armies" does not necessitate that we fight at all.  How many that have been in armies over the ages never actually took part in any combat?  Most of those I know of who have been a part of our own U.S. military never actually were in combat.  But, they were no less a part of our military.  I can't say Diaste, perhaps when we are in our glorified bodies and realize the full extent of the evil gathered against Christ at His Second Advent, we will feel differently.  Whatever the case, taking the position that we will not return with Him at His Second Advent is in conflict with what has been revealed to us (e.g., I Thess. 3:13; Jude 14; Rev. 17:14). 

I just think it conflicts with other concepts in the scriptures like, Vengeance is mine, I will repay. The souls under the altar asking God to avenge them, God fighting for His people after He protects them, etc.

Many people will read into Joel and Jude and Enoch that 'saints' is the elect, and use the attire of the elect in heaven as evidence the elect are the army. Angels are holy and they dress in white linen too. 

So it's not only the idea the army is 'strateuma' and not 'hagios', but that the idea just doesn't seem to fit too well in the bulk of scriptural teaching about the redemption of His people. 

I don't see the idea in your response mentioned in scripture e.g., the elect are support troops. Maybe, but it's just speculative.

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

@truth7t7 @Retrobyter @Da Puppers 

I have had this fascinating conversation before. It is truly interesting to delve into the nature of our Father's existence and His extreme power and intellect.

I even started one a while back.

 

Shalom, Diaste.

I call myself a "three-point Calvinist." As one may be aware, the five points of Calvinism are found in the word "TULIP," an acronym for "Total Depravity of mankind, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the saint."

I am fully convinced of the Total Depravity of mankind "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

I am fully convinced in the Unconditional Election; that is, that God in His UNCONDITIONAL LOVE for us, has UNCONDITIONALLY CHOSEN us and "predestinated us before the world began."

I am also fully convinced in the Perseverance of the saint, or rather the Perseverance of God for His saint! It is GOD who chooses us, not we who choose God! "We love Him because He first loved us!" And, we can stand in His presence "JUSTIFIED" because He justified us on the basis of His Son "becoming sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be the righteousness of God in Him!"

However, I'm not so convinced of the other two points: 

God does not force upon us His "Irresistible Grace." While He might KNOW who will be led by His Spirit to Himself (and who will not), He does not DETERMINE His grace on us! However, in the very act of Creation, He "DECLARED the end from the beginning," and it WAS determined! But, that's GOD'S knowledge, and He KEEPS IT TO HIMSELF! As far as any one of us knows, it is "whosoever will may come!"

I was given a simple analogy when I was a child that has always stuck with me:

When we come to the time of our New Birth, we pass through a doorway into God's Family. And, above the doorway on the outside is written "Whosoever will may come." But, when we pass through the doorway and look back, over the doorway is written on the inside, "Chosen before the foundation of the world!"

Does God's justification make us "righteous?" No. It makes us "righteousness!" Specifically, we become the "righteousness of God in the Messiah," just as the Messiah on the cross became "our sin," even though He was not a "sinner!"

And, the payment that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") paid on the cross was for the whole world!  (John 3:16) It was NOT a "Limited Atonement!" For, if one rejected that Atonement made for him or her, then that Atonement would be his or her SENTENCE OF DEATH! As Paul said,

Romans 7:7-12 (KJV)

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said,

"Thou shalt not covet." (Exodus 20:17).

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

So, I am a "TUP" Calvinist. While some will say, "OSAS" ("Once Saved Always Saved") is not a belief that is supported by the Scriptures, I maintain that "Salvation" and being "Saved" are misunderstood, and misused. Frankly, they are the WRONG WORDS to use for one's standing with God. (To prove this to oneself, simply look up the verses that Paul quoted in Romans 10 and look at the context of each!) Instead, one is "JUSTIFIED BY GOD!" And, it IS appropriate and supported by the Scriptures to say, "Once Justified By God, ALWAYS Justified By God!" "OJBGAJBG!" HE chooses who is justified and who is not!

And, when it comes to the Onmipresence of God, anything less would be a god over part of the Universe! That sounds like a belief in God being an alien from another planet! This is not a big enough God, for I keep going back to the words of Shlomoh haMelekh ("King Solomon") who said under God's inspiration, "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" (1 Kings 8:27).

The Hebrew phrase for "the heaven and heaven of heavens" is הַשָּׁמַ֜יִם וּשְׁמֵ֤י הַשָּׁמַ֙יִם֙ and it means, "the-skies and skies of-the-skies."

A little history of the word "הַשָּׁמַ֜יִם":

The first occurrence of this word is Genesis 1:1:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew so translated was ...

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

This translates to ...

"In-beginning created 'Elohiym (God) (d.o.->) the-skies and-(d.o.->) the-earth:"

This does NOT technically come BEFORE the rest of Genesis 1, because it is the SYNOPSIS of what is to follow!

The actual forming of הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם "hashaamayim" is found in ...

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The Hebrew reads,

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים יְהִ֥י רָקִ֖יעַ בְּתֹ֣וךְ הַמָּ֑יִם וִיהִ֣י מַבְדִּ֔יל בֵּ֥ין מַ֖יִם לָמָֽיִם׃
וַיַּ֣עַשׂ אֱלֹהִים֮ אֶת־הָרָקִיעַ֒ וַיַּבְדֵּ֗ל בֵּ֤ין הַמַּ֙יִם֙ אֲשֶׁר֙ מִתַּ֣חַת לָרָקִ֔יעַ וּבֵ֣ין הַמַּ֔יִם אֲשֶׁ֖ר מֵעַ֣ל לָרָקִ֑יעַ וַֽיְהִי־כֵֽן׃
וַיִּקְרָ֧א אֱלֹהִ֛ים לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ שָׁמָ֑יִם וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר יֹ֥ום שֵׁנִֽי׃ פ

The translates word-for-word to ...

And-said God "Let-there-be an-expanse in-middle of-the-waters and-let-it-separate between waters from-waters":
And-made God (d.o.->)-the-expanse and-He-divided between the-waters that-[were] under to-expanse and-between the-waters that-[were] above to-expanse, and it-was so:
And-called/named God to-expanse "Shaamaayim" ("Skies") and-there-[was] evening and-there-[was] morning Day two: P (punctuation for end-of-thought)

This was the actual time that God made the skies, on Day 2 of Creation. It was an expanse between the waters above and the waters below. So, there was an atmosphere - gases that expand - between the waters below, which were liquid, and the waters above, which were water vapor, a gas. One can see through pure gaseous water.

My point is this: The EXPANSE of gases were called "the skies." So, "skies of-the-skies" would refer to the "expanse of the expanse of gases" - SPACE!

See, after the Flood in Noach's time, there was no more "waters above the skies." Instead, the waters above were mixed into the atmosphere - mixed into the lower parts of the skies, and coalesced on particles found within the skies, forming what we call "clouds." "Clouds" did not exist before the Flood. Instead, we read:

Genesis 2:4-6 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

This tells us two things: First, the ground was saturated with water, and it didn't need to be tilled to allow plants to grow because it was soft and pourous, like loam.

Second, the dew point was too low to form clouds. Instead, a mist - a low fog - came up during the day and watered the surface of the ground.

This all changed after the Flood, where we read ...

Genesis 7:11-12 (KJV)

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

This Flood didn't start with the waters above, but with the fountains of the great deep being broken up! It was TECTONIC! And, when the hot gases and particles were released into the upper atmosphere, the water vapor there coalesced upon the particles and it rained for 40 days and 40 nights! The waters above the expanse of gases no longer existed in abundance. So now, most of the water on this earth exists as liquid water below the skies, with relatively little getting up into the skies where it coalesces on particles to form clouds WITHIN the skies. Clouds, consisting of condensed, liquid water droplets, suspended in the winds of the air, above the dew point (the flat underside of cumulus clouds), will remain that way until the water condenses enough to form larger drops that then fall to the ground as rain.

So, the expanse was named "skies," and the "expanse of the expanse," would be where the skies thin until there is nothing - SPACE!

So, if we make this substitution into Shlomoh's words, we get:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the skies (the atmosphere) and SPACE cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" (1 Kings 8:27).

Space, which is the nearly empty area found between objects, such as stars and planets and asteroids, etc., we cannot see. But, we see the things which are found IN space, such as those asteroids, moons, planets, stars, galaxies, galaxy clusters, etc. that give dimension to the space we cannot see.

Remember God's words to Avraham:

Genesis 15:1-7 (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,

"Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

2 And Abram said,

"Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"

3 And Abram said,

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir."

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

"This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir!"

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said,

"Look now toward heaven (Hebrew: הַשָּׁמַ֗יְמָה "hashaamaymaah," a feminine, singular noun formed from "the skies"), and tell (Hebrew: וּסְפֹר֙ "uwcfor," "and-count") the stars, if thou be able to number them":

and he said unto him,

"So shall thy seed be."

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him,

"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it."

How could God make such a promise if He was not Creator of all that Avram ("Abram") could see?

I'll just end with the statement I made before: If He is not the Almighty Creator God of ALL, then He is not the Almighty Creator God AT ALL! And, He SURPASSES all that He has made!