Who is Resurrected, and When?

[truth7t7]

On 12/1/2022 at 1:48 AM, Diaste said:

 

Sure, but is it everyone from all time? 

For any saints to be resurrected at the time Jesus arrives does not necessitate all saints to be raised. There is precedent for this in Matt 27.

"When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of MANY saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

So here not all the saints that could be resurrected were in fact resurrected, only many. We don't know if these were exclusively NT saints, OT saints, or a mix of both.

I'm convinced these saints were contemporary to the time as they appeared to many people; I think easily recognizable, like people they knew personally or at least knew of for identification purposes. But that wouldn't have to be the case, I suppose.

So here only some were raised up from the grave. It not like the rest of the saints not resurrected at this time will never be resurrected in the future. This resurrection from Matt 27 is not the only resurrection and somehow signifies all the other saints not raised up in Matt 27 are lost to infinity. Their time is coming in the future; 2000 years in the future.

So it could be the same in Rev 7 and Rev 20; some are raised, the others wait, it's happened before. They don't lose their inheritance or redemption or the promise of the resurrection, it's just all fulfilled at a different space/time moment.

 

I don't see how a parenthetic is a reduction though.

It's not like any digression isn't factual. So it's still a fact we have to insert in the deductive process to come to a reasonable and satisfyingly complete conclusion.

So then even as all the references to the gathering speak to the resurrection at the coming of Jesus in general terms, and we the readers of those passages render our conclusion is the same sort of general mindset, concluding every saint from all time is raised from the dead the moment Jesus arrives, Rev 7:11-15 and 20:4-6 are additional facts that must be added to our previous knowledge from the NT epistles.

The information in the whole of the NT came from one source and one source only. 

 

Those saints coming out of the graves were "Raised From The Dead" just as Lazarus and Tabitha, Not one word states a resurrection took place as you claim

The resurrection of "All" takes place on the last day at the second coming (The End)

[JoeCanada]

On 11/28/2022 at 2:49 AM, Diaste said:

Hmmm...possibly. I have searched for order of events throughout Revelation and it's elusive. I can find some consecutive events like seals, trumps and bowls. Using that example as inviolate order I can apply the same ideas of the language to other portions of scripture. 

The 1st four trumps:

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, 

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, 

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, 

12Then the fourth angel

This is order.

Hi Diaste.

I'm just catching up....Been real busy as of late.

But I'd like you to comment on this please. 

You say you can see some order in Revelation, such as your post above. The first angel, then the second, then the third etc...... concluding "this is order." 

Then you say:

On 11/28/2022 at 2:49 AM, Diaste said:

I can find some consecutive events like seals, trumps and bowls.

But.....

I, and many others have argued with you when you stated that the seals and trumpets were concurrent and not consecutive, that they both occur at the same time, together.

Have you recently  changed your mind regarding the seals and trumpets being not concurrent, but consecutive?

 

On 11/28/2022 at 2:49 AM, Diaste said:

This is order. So when I see the same language in Rev 20-21 I see order.

Then I saw a great white throne

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away,

I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb

One after the other in order. "Then' is 'next'. Now if John said, "And I saw..." that's in addition to and not necessarily order. My conclusion here is:

The GWTJ takes place and then death and hades are destroyed in the flame, then and only then the new heavens and earth, and then the bride, NJ, comes down from heaven.

 

How can all these events be in "order"???

As stated above, the last event is the NJ coming down out of heaven...... but, following this is:

Then the angel with the seven last plagues. Because the angel still has the 7 bowls with the 7 last plagues..... this  cannot be consecutive as so many believe. The 7th bowl was poured out 4 chapters back.

On 11/28/2022 at 2:49 AM, Diaste said:

One after the other in order. "Then' is 'next'

Obviously this isn't always the case. 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

The, "matter" is simply moved out of the way so Jesus can be seen.

Well, they would have to know that He would be seen if not in hiding.

Shalom, Uriah.

I just think it's quite a reach. Yeeshuwa` is a PHYSICAL man, even though He has been resurrected as an immortal, incorruptible body. He doesn't grow to a ridiculous size so He can be seen. We are told that He will return as His GLORIFIED body; that is He will GLOW BRIGHTLY like the sun in its strength!

A simple TV camera or two can show His image around the world!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

 Rev 1:7- Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This part is tricky. See, these are quotations from three (or more) sources: Daniel 7:13, Isaiah 52:11, and  Zechariah 12:10-12, to be sure:

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV)

13 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Isaiah 52:1-10 (KJV)

1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. 3 For thus saith the LORD,

"Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money."

4 For thus saith the Lord GOD,

"My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. 5 Now therefore, what have I here,"

saith the LORD,

"that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl,"

saith the LORD;

"and my name continually every day is blasphemed! 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I!"

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion,

"Thy God reigneth!"

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm (His Messiah) in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God (Hebrew: Yshuwa`t Eloheinuw = "Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) of-our-God")!

Zechariah 12:6-14 (KJV)

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 

9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications":

"and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,"

"and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be A GREAT MOURNING IN JERUSALEM, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And THE LAND (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the land; the earth") SHALL MOURN, EVERY FAMILY APART; 
the family of the house of DAVID apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of NATHAN apart, and their wives apart; 13
The family of the house of LEVI apart, and their wives apart;
the family of SHIMEI apart, and their wives apart; 14
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

Now, the question one should ask himself or herself is, "WHY?" "Why does every family of the Land mourn for 'the One whom they have pierced?'"

The answer is found in the four names mentioned here and in the order they are found, because there is another place where these names are found in this order!

Luke 3:23-31ff (KJV)

23 And JESUS himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Heli, 24
Which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of Levi,
which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Janna,
which was the son of Joseph, 25
Which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of Amos,
which was the son of Naum,
which was the son of Esli,
which was the son of Nagge, 26
Which was the son of Maath,
which was the son of Mattathias,
which was the son of SEMEI,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Juda, 27
Which was the son of Joanna,
which was the son of Rhesa,
which was the son of Zorobabel,
which was the son of Salathiel,
which was the son of Neri, 28
Which was the son of Melchi,
which was the son of Addi,
which was the son of Cosam,
which was the son of Elmodam,
which was the son of Er, 29
Which was the son of Jose,
which was the son of Eliezer,
which was the son of Jorim,
which was the son of Matthat,
which was the son of LEVI, 30
Which was the son of Simeon,
which was the son of Juda,
which was the son of Joseph,
which was the son of Jonan,
which was the son of Eliakim, 31
Which was the son of Melea,
which was the son of Menan,
which was the son of Mattatha,
which was the son of NATHAN, 
which was the son of DAVID, ....

They are individuals in the lineage of Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") through Miryam ("Mary"), His mother, the actual PHYSICAL ancestors of our Lord!

This is why it can be said of them, "they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn!"

He was either in the loins of their only son, or He was in the loins of their firstborn son! He was their GRANDSON, however far removed!

The Greek of Revelation 1:7 is very revealing!

7 ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν νεφελῶν, καὶ ὄψεται αὐτὸν πᾶς ὀφθαλμὸς, καὶ οἵτινες αὐτὸν ἐξεκέντησαν· καὶ κόψονται ἐπ’ αὐτὸν πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς. ναί, ἀμήν.

Transliterated this is ...

7 Idou erchetai meta toon nefeloon, kai opsetai auton pas ofthalmos, kai hoitines auton exekenteesan; kai kopsontai ep' auton pasai hai fulai tees gees. Nai, ameen.

Translated word-for-word, we get ...

7 Behold/Look! He-comes with the clouds, and shall-see Him every eye, and those-who Him they-pierced; and will-wail over Him all the families/clans/tribes of-the earth/land. Yes, truth (in Hebrew)!

So, this could actually be a DIRECT QUOTE from Zechariah 12:10-12, for the Hebrew "haa'aarets " means "the-earth/land" as does the Greek "tees gees! " Furthermore, the Hebrew words "mishpaachowt mishpaachowt " mean "every family/clan/tribe" just as the Greek words "pasai hai fulai " do!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

The vapor and debris from the Rev 8:8 impact will be ejected right into space.

This is nonsense. The impact would have to be so large that the particles "ejected" would have to reach escape velocity to escape the earth's gravity! What do you think draws the meteorite to the earth's surface, after all?

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

As we have seen elsewhere in our solar system, (Jupiter) this material can interact with a planet's magnetic field and even self organize in somewhat dipole configuration.

This aurora appearance is actually a plasma. We also use plasma for viewing images in our living rooms! No matter where on the planet you may be, He will be seen

John didn't see "the burning mountain being cast into the sea" like this! If he had, he would probably have said something like, "a second sun struck the sea!" What he said he saw was a "MOUNTAIN" burning with fire!

Your pictures OVERSTATE the event!

As far as "using plasma for viewing images in our living rooms," SOME people may still use them, but they're being replaced with the cooler, lighter, LCD displays!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

"with power and great glory" "like lightning" (which is also plasma)

Again, I think this is a stretch. Plasma is actually the fourth state of matter - solid, liquid, gas, plasma. Plasma is simply excited, heated gas that begins to lose its electrons because of the excess heat. The only way to control it is with a magnetic field.

It's MUCH simpler to explain with news reporters and TV cameras "filming" the event live!

Now, the comparisons you make between the trumpet blasts and the bowls of plagues are easier to decipher in the correct order. Revelation 9 comes BEFORE Revelation 16, and the Seals come before the Trumpets, and the Trumpets come before the Bowls!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 16:12- And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 9:14- Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Revelation 9:14 is part of the text:

Revelation 9:13-19 (KJV)

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,

"Loose the four angels (Greek: tous tessaras aggelous = "the four messengers") which are bound in the great river (Greek: epi too potamoo megaloo = "upon/above/over/at the river great") Euphrates."

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand (200,000,000): and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire (red), and of jacinth (blue), and brimstone (yellow): and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV)

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 

15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame!"

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon (Greek: Har magedoon = Hebrew: Har Megiddown = "Mountain of-Megiddow" or "Tel Megiddo," 30 km. [18.6 mi.] SE of Haifa in Israel).

Now, I'm not saying that they aren't related, but the sixth trumpet blown warns people of the four messengers released from being bound over the Euphrates River; HOWEVER, the sixth bowl of plague being poured upon the Euphrates dries up the river allowing for passage over the riverbed! These two events are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

 Rev 16:10- And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 9:1 & 2- And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 

Again, Revelation 9 comes BEFORE Revelation 16! Furthermore, the results of each seal/trumpet/bowl CASCADE into each other! These events need to be handled in the order in which one finds them! These two events are not linked by "darkness." That's simply a result of other events!

Revelation 9 comes first:

Revelation 6:12-14; 8:1-13; 9:1-12 (KJV) 

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places....

1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood (Greek: apsinthos from which we get the word "absinthe"): and the third part of the waters became wormwood (Greek: apsinthon); and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter (poisonous).

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven (flying mid-sky), saying with a loud voice,

"Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth (a meteorite): and to him (it) was given the key (coordinates) of the bottomless pit. 2 And he (it) opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is "Abaddon," but in the Greek tongue hath his name "Apollyon."

12 "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

THESE are all meteoric events! In fact, they describe METEORITES - objects that STRIKE the planet's surface, whether the earth (the ground) or the sea!

 

Revelation 16:8-11 (KJV)

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him (it) to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed (Greek: eblasfeemeesan = "they-belittled") the God of heaven (Greek: ton Theon tou ouranou = "the God of-the sky") because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

For them to "belittle the God of the sky," they would probably say something like, "Well, things have gotten out of God's control! He can't control the sun anymore, and the atmosphere with its ozone shield that He made isn't strong enough to block the sun's destructive heat (from the ultraviolet spectrum, including high-energy gamma rays and cosmic rays)!" Rather than turn to Him for His powerful intervention, they chalk all these events up to a weak God! Verse 9 said, "They repented not to give Him glory!" (As if to say, "It couldn't be ME who's the problem!")

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 16:8 & 9- And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire 

Rev 8:12- And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

Rev 16:4- And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood

Rev 8:10- And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

 

Rev 16:3- And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Rev 8:8- And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 

Rev 16:2- And the first angel went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

Rev 8:7- The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up

Look. I understand what you're trying to do here, but recognzing a few of the same words does NOT mean that they are the same instance! Instead, they are just of the same PATTERN!

In essence, it's the SAME PROBLEM that Evolution has. Bear with me on this: The Evolutionists will notice that they have similar patterns in morphology, and make the false conclusion that this proves common ancestry. However, similar patterns in morphology simply reveals common DESIGN!

It should come as no surprise that a maker of .22 LRs could also make rifles, pistols, revolvers, smoothbore shotguns, and submachine guns all with the same bores! It doesn't mean that the pistols "gave birth" to revolvers. that "gave birth" to rifles, or rifles to submachine guns! It just means that they all had the same DESIGNERS!

Look at the bottom of your hand with fingers out-stretched. Can you see how the finger nails follow a circular pattern?

Now, put your fingers together and see the different heights of each finger. Can you tell they follow a parabolic shape?

Now, keeping your fingers together, curl them down to the palm of your hand. Can you see how the nails all line up with the curve of the palm of your hand? The flatter you hold the palm of your hand, the straighter that curve will be until it looks like a straight line!

All this doesn't suggest common ancestry or survival of the fittest! It shows a COMMON DESIGN, which demands a DESIGNER! (I believe you already know this.)

So, when we see that the pattern of the opening of the seals, matches the pattern of the blowing of the trumpets, which also matches the pattern of the bowls of plagues, that fact does NOT say they are the same events; it merely shows that these judgments and plagues were all planned out by a COMMON INTELLIGENCE, YHWH God!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

                                                SEALS

Rev 8:1- And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour

Rev 8:3- And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:5- And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

                                                 TRUMPETS

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:19- And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

                                                          VIALS

Rev 16:17- And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 16:18- And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Rev 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 16:21- And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The  orbit of the main debris cloud will deteriorate and then come crashing into the Earth's atmosphere around the world. The restored canopy in space around the planet will gather much more charged particles from the solar wind and follow its contour to the poles. The sudden surge of energy to the heart of Earth will shake the entire planet! And will have numerous effects all through the millennium and beyond.

Again, similar wording doesn't mean same event. To the contrary, if you would pay as much attention to the verses you've SKIPPED as you've quoted, you'd find a PROGRESSION from seals to trumpets, and from trumpets to bowls. Indeed, the seal verses you've quoted show the "herald meteorites" of all the meteorites to follow in the blowing of at least the first five of the seven trumpets or shofars! The seventh seal INTRODUCES the seven trumpets, just as the seventh trumpet INTRODUCES the seven bowls of plagues!

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

People meeting Jesus in the air!

Rev 19:7-Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

No 1,000 years of waiting!

Rev 19:8-And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

How would there be fine linen on a city! Its PEOPLE IN THE CITY!

Perhaps, because we DO have Ephesians 5:22-33 to consider. HOWEVER, while the people will be citizens of the Messiah's Kingdom DURING the Millennium, the New Jerusalem, actually IDENTIFIED to be "the Lamb's wife," won't land until AFTER the Millennium. Thus, the people are NOT "IN" the city until AFTER the Millennium.

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Absolutely. I hope I don't come off as "bickering". I certainly feel NO animosity whatsoever.

No, you're one of the more reasonable people on this forum with whom to debate. It's just that I've learned so much about the future Kingdom of the Messiah, both during the Millennium and after throughout eternity, that I can't allow it to be maligned by those who think there will be no Millennium.

Yeeshuwa` SHALL be King on this earth!

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, @Uriah.

I should have changed the previous post's address to you as "Shabbat shalom." Sometimes, the busy-ness of the days and the time it takes to make a response takes a a couple of days, and what I hoped would have been done Thursday, turned out to be Friday night, the beginning of the Shabbat.

Have a GREAT day!

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

But.....

I, and many others have argued with you when you stated that the seals and trumpets were concurrent and not consecutive, that they both occur at the same time, together.

Have you recently  changed your mind regarding the seals and trumpets being not concurrent, but consecutive?

I have not. I see three sets: Seals, Trumps and Bowls. Within each set they open, sound and are poured out in consecutive order.

What I also see is a concurrence of Seals and Trumps. The bowls appear to be after the 7th Trump, but under the 7th seal, as this is when wrath falls. 

So during the opening of the Seals Trumps are sounding, not one for one but in some order under the umbrella of the seals. Perhaps 4 Seals open and then the 1st Trump sounds. Maybe 4 Seals open then the first 4 Trumps sound. I don't know how it will occur only that I can make the case Seals and Trumps are concurrent in some fashion.

The major reason for this is wrath comes at both the 6th Seal and the 7th Trump. So unless it can be shown wrath, and all the other occurrences that come with wrath, occurs twice at diverse time/space moments then the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in conjunction. 

So far there has been no proof of this even as attempts have been made. 

 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

How can all these events be in "order"???

As stated above, the last event is the NJ coming down out of heaven...... but, following this is:

Then the angel with the seven last plagues. Because the angel still has the 7 bowls with the 7 last plagues..... this  cannot be consecutive as so many believe. The 7th bowl was poured out 4 chapters back.

Because "Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me," identifies the angel and nothing more. It would be gap filling for me to say this angel has yet to pour out a bowl of wrath, or this angel has all 7 bowls of wrath and they are yet to be poured out, based on what is in the text in Rev 21:9. 

The KJV renders 'with' as 'had'. So an idea like possessed, held, used, and the like, is appropriate here and doesn't speak to 'yet to be'. The verb "ἐχόντων" is PPA. This seems to speak to ongoing action. But as wrath ends and the condition of the bowls do not go on forever then it's the possession of the bowl, or vial, that's ongoing. This is Leslie McFall:

"When a writer uses the participle he does not envisage the termination of the action. It will go on and on indefinitely, or be repeated continuously,"

I don't see wrath being indefinite so it must be the possession of the vial that's indefinite. I see nothing in Rev 21:9 that says the bowls are yet to be poured out, only that the angel here either once had the bowl or still has it. And to speculate; it's not even necessary for the angel to be in physical possession of the vial as all 7 of those angels will always be known as the angels of the vials of wrath. This is noteworthy because this is the only time in eternity where these 7 vials of wrath are poured out.

So then the scripture points out the angel which has in possession, or once had possession of a vial of wrath, or is known as an angel of a vail, is going to introduce John to the bride; not that the vial is yet to be poured out and this introduction is an interlude amidst the wrath of God, or previous to the wrath of God.

[Diaste]

 

On 11/28/2022 at 3:49 AM, Diaste said:

One after the other in order. "Then' is 'next'. Now if John said, "And I saw..."

 

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Obviously this isn't always the case. 

Hmm...gotta move a lot of rock to find gold. The other post shows how the 'Then one of the seven angels..." is simply an identifier and not a 'yet to be' and is a past circumstance ongoing which is either possession or fame, or infamy, if you prefer.

But none of this really deals with the question of Who is taken in What resurrection.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Those saints coming out of the graves were "Raised From The Dead" just as Lazarus and Tabitha, Not one word states a resurrection took place as you claim

The resurrection of "All" takes place on the last day at the second coming (The End)

You can't be serious.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Diaste

[Diaste]

On 12/1/2022 at 1:21 PM, truth7t7 said:

I Agree, How Far Many Will Go In Maintaining A 1,000 Year Kingdom On This Earth, That's Not Seen In Scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Retrobyter]

On 12/3/2022 at 6:59 AM, Diaste said:

I have not. I see three sets: Seals, Trumps and Bowls. Within each set they open, sound and are poured out in consecutive order.

What I also see is a concurrence of Seals and Trumps. The bowls appear to be after the 7th Trump, but under the 7th seal, as this is when wrath falls. 

So during the opening of the Seals Trumps are sounding, not one for one but in some order under the umbrella of the seals. Perhaps 4 Seals open and then the 1st Trump sounds. Maybe 4 Seals open then the first 4 Trumps sound. I don't know how it will occur only that I can make the case Seals and Trumps are concurrent in some fashion.

The major reason for this is wrath comes at both the 6th Seal and the 7th Trump. So unless it can be shown wrath, and all the other occurrences that come with wrath, occurs twice at diverse time/space moments then the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in conjunction. 

So far there has been no proof of this even as attempts have been made. 

Shalom, @Diaste, and you too, @JoeCanada.

The seals are like the main points of the body of a paper:

I. Opening of the First Seal - White horse and rider, weaponless negotiations
II. Opening of the Second Seal - Red horse and rider, open war
III. Opening of the Third Seal - Black horse and rider, famine
IV. Opening of the Fourth Seal - Green horse and rider, plagues and death
V. Opening of the Fifth Seal - Souls at the foot of the altar
VI. Opening of the Sixth Seal - Herald meteorites
VII. Opening of the Seventh Seal - 1/2 hour of silence, seven angels given trumpets

Then, the Sounding of the Trumpets are subpoints under the Seventh Seal:

VII. A. Sounding of the First Trumpet - hail, fire and blood cast upon earth
VII. B. Sounding of the Second Trumpet - great mountain burning cast into sea
VII. C. Sounding of the Third Trumpet - sputtering star on rivers and springs
VII. D. Sounding of the Fourth Trumpet - 1/3 of sun, moon, stars, night, & day smitten
VII. E. Sounding of the Fifth Trumpet - star cracks open bottomless pit, locusts, woe 1
VII. F. Sounding of the Sixth Trumpet - 4 angels bound in Euphrates loosed, woe 2 

Under the Sounding of the Sixth Trumpet are the Seven Thunders

VII. F. 1. Uttering of the First Thunder (unknown)
VII. F. 2. Uttering of the Second Thunder (unknown)
VII. F. 3. Uttering of the Third Thunder (unknown)
VII. F. 4. Uttering of the Fourth Thunder (unknown)
VII. F. 5. Uttering of the Fifth Thunder (unknown)
VII. F. 6. Uttering of the Sixth Thunder (unknown)
VII. F. 7. Uttering of the Seventh Thunder (unknown)

VII. G. Sounding of the Seventh Trumpet - world kingdoms become YHWH's, woe 3

Then the pouring out of the Bowls of Plagues are subpoints under the Seventh Trumpet:

VII. G. 1. Pouring of the First Bowl of Plague - infected sores on beast worshippers
VII. G. 2. Pouring of the Second Bowl of Plague - sea turned into dead man's blood
VII. G. 3. Pouring of the Third Bowl of Plague - rivers & springs turned into blood
VII. G. 4. Pouring of the Fourth Bowl of Plague - sun scorches people
VII. G. 5. Pouring of the Fifth Bowl of Plague - darkness on beast's kingdom
VII. G. 6. Pouring of the Sixth Bowl of Plague - Euphrates is dried up admitting armies & Armageddon starts
VII. G. 7. Pouring of the Seventh Bowl of Plague - lightning, thunder, earthquakes, huge hail

"IT IS DONE."

Babylon is destroyed and lamented, and then the Son of man arrives with blood-soaked clothes. Beast and false prophet taken and thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Birds and animals given charge to mop up after the war.

HaSatan taken and chained, thrown into bottomless pit for 1,000 years.

Meanwhile, the kingdom of God through His Messiah will be going on for that 1,000 years until all of His enemies have been subdued.

At the end of the 1,000 years, haSatan will be loosed, and he will gather his armies to wage a final assault on the holy city, Jerusalem, and the camp of the saints, and fire will come down and burn them up.

HaSatan will be taken and thrown into the Lake of Burning Sulfur, and the children of the wicked one will be resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne, and they will be likewise thrown into the Lake of Burning Sulfur. Death itself will be destroyed, and the Kingdom of the justified ones will be turned over to the their Father.

YHWH God will re-form the earth and sky, and bring down the New Jerusalem to be the New Earth's Capitol.

THE END.