Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Thank you DeighAnn, a little patience is required. 

Your reply is confusing. 

We do both agree that when Jesus Returns, He will bring the souls of the people killed during the 42 months of world control of the 'beast'?

Shalom, Keras.

Just a little bit of correction here:

First, it won't be just "the souls of the people killed during the 42 months of world control of the 'beast.'" It will be ALL of His Saints! This INCLUDES the Old Testament heroes and people who trusted in a future Messiah, AS WELL AS "the people killed during the 42 months!"

"Souls," by the way, means "creatures who BREATHE!" When they become "souls" again, they are ALREADY resurrected!

To separate the "Christians" from the believers in the Messiah BEFORE the Messiah came is probably the ODDEST quirk in Christianity! We are ONE BODY in the Messiah!

Ephesians 1:1-2:22 (KJV)

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ (Yeeshuwa` the Messiah) by the will of God, to the saints (the holy ones) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus (those who trust in the Messiah Yeeshuwa`): 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation (the good news about your rescue): in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church (His "called-out" gathering), 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

1 And you (Ephesian believers) hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation (lifestyle) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us back to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That IN THE AGES TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye (Ephesian believers) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (the Jews) in the flesh made by hands; 12 That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world: 

13 BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS (WITHIN THE MESSIAH YEESHUWA`), ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (of the Messiah). 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, AND HATH BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US; 15 HAVING ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH THE ENMITY, EVEN THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; FOR TO MAKE IN HIMSELF OF TWAIN ONE NEW MAN, SO MAKING PEACE; 16 AND THAT HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY THEREBY: 17 And came and preached (heralded) peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him, WE BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father!

19 NOW THEREFORE ye (Ephesian believers) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens WITH THE SAINTS (THE HOLY ONES), and OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles AND PROPHETS, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

3 hours ago, Keras said:

He will resurrect them, [only the GT martyrs] but only to physical life. What Jesus Promised in John 3:16 and John 11:26=5-26, is true, but it doesn't happen until the final Judgement of everyone. Rev 20:11-15

Life is life! It's ALL physical! If that life goes on forever, then it is "eternal life," but it is still the body BREATHING again! There's no such thing as "spiritual life" or whatever else you may call it!

3 hours ago, Keras said:

I read the Bible, it tells me all I need to know. 

I suggest you look up all the relevant Prophesies about when the New Covenant will be promulgated and made with His people. 

Yes.  Those resurrected martyrs will be His Priests and co-rulers. Rev 20:6

And it will be a time of peace and great prosperity. People will live much longer and there will be no disease. Isaiah 65:18-25, Micah 4:1-5, Psalms 47:1-9. +

You're forgetting (or ignoring) that this ONLY applies to those WITHIN HIS KINGDOM! OUTSIDE of His Kingdom, there will still be turmoil and disease and death, especially as the Messiah subdues all of His enemies! That's what the first 1,000 years of His Kingdom are all about! He will be GROWING His Kingdom, a nation at a time, even an individual at a time! That was His pattern during His First Advent.

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Paul answers this in Romans 1:18-32   Paul also tells us that some people have been made for destruction. Romans 9:22

God's Plan is perfect. 

All the people whose names are found in the Book of Life, will be resurrected into Eternal life, AFTER the Millennium. 

Nonsense! What good will THAT do?! He WANTS them IN HIS KINGDOM! Besides, we have prophecies that demand His "Old Testament" people be there with Him in His Kingdom!

Psalm 89:20-37 (KJV)

20 "I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me,

"'Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation (rescue).'

27 "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven." Selah.

Ezekiel 34:17-31 (KJV)

17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD;

"Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet."

20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them;

"Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

25 "And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. 31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD."

Zechariah 12:10-14 (KJV)

10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;

the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

This last part would be hard to do if they were not all resurrected! Indeed, since Nathan was the son of David, and all four of these are found in the lineage of the Messiah in Luke 3, then these families have been resurrected at this time!

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Keras said:

According to your beliefs.

[double click failed.  This is what I posted:  This is all seriously flawed, according to the Bible itself.

So you are correct.  I believe the Bible.] 

Which will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

Yes; There will be a resurrection when Jesus Returns, Revelation 20:4 tells us who they will be.....those killed for their faith by the 'beast', during his 42 month period of world control.

[Please don't ignore the verse that proves that ALL the saved will be resurrected "when He comes" at the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 

The phrase "those who belong to Him" means EVERY saved person ever. So Rev 20:4 places the Trib martyrs with ALL believers.]

Impossible, just read Revelation from Rev 6:12 to %ev 19:10 and see that nothing of the kind Prophesied has happened yet. 

No, it's not impossible.  Start with the FIRST horsemen of the apocalypse in Rev 6.  From observing current events, it can easily be argued that at least 2 of the horsemen have been released already.  But everyone is free to their own opinion.

I never said the Tribulation has already occurred.  I said "may well".  

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Keras said:

The ungodly peoples, all of whom are dead before Jesus commences His Millennium reign. ONLY the faithful Christian peoples will go with Jesus into the Millennium. 

Do the math regarding how many people will be killed DURING the Tribulation.  Approx 1/2 of the world's population will be killed.  At the Second Advent, "when He comes" all believers, both dead and alive, will be resurrected and will rule with or serve the King during the MK.

So, it should be obvious that the unbelievers who survive the Tribulation will be those who will be "ruled with a rod of iron" by the King.  

Can you explain why Jesus would "rule with a rod of iron" if all His subjects were believers?  And, already in immortal glorified bodies?  That surely doesn't make any sense.

And then, at the end of the MK, there will be a world-wide rebellion led by Satan against "the people God loves".  And all the rebels will be killed by fire.

Your view doesn't agree with the Bible.

[truth7t7]

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

T7,

Your claim is false!

And here's why:

"25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Did you forget about that verse?

Jesus HAS to reign UNTIL (till) He has put down all His enemies. 

This does not happen when He battles at Armegeddon. 

He still HAS to REIGN first, and this does not happen in one day.

Can you show in scripture where Jesus delivers up the kingdom to the Father?

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Jesus doesn't deliver the kingdom to the Father UNTIL He has put down all rule and authority and power. THEN comes the end!

 

My Claim Is "Truth", As The Scripture Below Clearly Shows !

Joe we will go real slow in explanation

1.) Verses 23-26 clearly explains the order of the resurrection, it clearly states the believers will be resurrected at the Lord's "Coming" it states the Last enemy destroyed is "Death" at this time the Kingdom is handed over

2.) Verses 51-54 shows the detailed "Process" on how death is swallowed up in victory, its when the mortal become immortal, and corrupt becomes incorrupt, "Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory"

Conclusion: you have been presented a very clear explanation Joe, When Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, and the Last Enemy Death Is Destroyed, As The Kingdom Is Handed Over, "Then Cometh The End" in the "Twinkling Of And Eye"

Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand, 4th Grade Reading Comprehension 

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Edited January 26, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

11 hours ago, Keras said:

I would not like to face God and have Him say: Why did you teach contrary to My Prophetic Word?  The Word, clearly set out in Revelation 20:1-10 and supported in many other scriptures. 

Your response has absolutely to do with the facts seen in 1 Corinthians Chapter 15

When Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, mortal becomes immortal, death is swallowed up in victory "Then Cometh The End" 

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54KJV

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Edited January 26, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Do the math regarding how many people will be killed DURING the Tribulation.  Approx 1/2 of the world's population will be killed.  At the Second Advent, "when He comes" all believers, both dead and alive, will be resurrected and will rule with or serve the King during the MK.

So, it should be obvious that the unbelievers who survive the Tribulation will be those who will be "ruled with a rod of iron" by the King.  

Can you explain why Jesus would "rule with a rod of iron" if all His subjects were believers?  And, already in immortal glorified bodies?  That surely doesn't make any sense.

And then, at the end of the MK, there will be a world-wide rebellion led by Satan against "the people God loves".  And all the rebels will be killed by fire.

Your view doesn't agree with the Bible.

Jesus ruling with a rod of iron,is showing his destruction of the wicked at his second coming, as a potter destroys clay vessels with a rod of iron

No such thing found in scripture as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

Revelation 2:27KJV

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

John 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Edited January 26, 2023 by truth7t7

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

When Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, and the Last Enemy Death Is Destroyed, As The Kingdom Is Handed Over, "Then Cometh The End" in the "Twinkling Of And Eye"

T7,

When Jesus returns, the resurrection takes place...... I agree, the resurrection and rapture of the living believers

But then, here is where you go off the road:

You state that Jesus returns and the resurrection takes place.....and the last enemy destroyed is death..... as the kingdom is handed over

You have completely left out:

when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy isn't destroyed until AFTER verse 25..... HE MUST REIGN UNTIL HE HAS PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET.

Jesus isn't reigning when He does battle at Armageddon. He's warring.

He reigns AFTERWARDS. 

[Keras]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First, it won't be just "the souls of the people killed during the 42 months of world control of the 'beast.'" It will be ALL of His Saints! This INCLUDES the Old Testament heroes and people who trusted in a future Messiah, AS WELL AS "the people killed during the 42 months!"

Revelation 20:3-6 says, ONLY those killed during the Great Trib, will be brought back to life when Jesus Returns.  ALL the rest of the dead wait for the GWT Judgment. 

God makes this separation, not me. The OT saints - everyone from Adam, will stand before God. Revelation 20:11-15

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Life is life! It's ALL physical! If that life goes on forever, then it is "eternal life," but it is still the body BREATHING again! There's no such thing as "spiritual life" or whatever else you may call it!

Eternal life is a Spiritual state. After the final Judgment and the new heavens and earth comes. Revelation 21:1-7, physical existence will be over. 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You're forgetting (or ignoring) that this ONLY applies to those WITHIN HIS KINGDOM! OUTSIDE of His Kingdom, there will still be turmoil and disease and death, especially as the Messiah subdues all of His enemies! That's what the first 1,000 years of His Kingdom are all about! He will be GROWING His Kingdom, a nation at a time, even an individual at a time! That was His pattern during His First Advent.

ALL of His enemies will be His footstool, that is: they will be dead before Jesus commences His thousand year reign.   Only after the thousand years, when Satan is released, will be turmoil as his army of people he deceives goes to attack Jesus and His people. 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Nonsense! What good will THAT do?! He WANTS them IN HIS KINGDOM! Besides, we have prophecies that demand His "Old Testament" people be there with Him in His Kingdom!

At the end of the Millennium, Jesus hands the Kingdom back to the Father; 1 Cor 15:24-28    Did you miss that? 

I see no Prophesies that 'demand' the OT Saints in the Millennium. David, Job and Lazarus, 'sleep', until the Judgment. Acts 13:36

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This last part would be hard to do if they were not all resurrected! Indeed, since Nathan was the son of David, and all four of these are found in the lineage of the Messiah in Luke 3, then these families have been resurrected at this time!

Nonsense, it refers to the descendants of those people. Just as we Christians are the Spiritual descendants of Abraham. Galatians 3:26-29 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

T7,

You sure do like to quote only part of scripture.

"Death is swallowed up in victory....

Here is the rest:

"O death, where is your victory?

O death, where is your sting?

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is in the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ".... I Cor15: 55-57

Our victory over death is through our steadfast faith in Jesus. 

Our victory over sin is through our steadfast faith in Jesus.

We have been washed in the blood of Jesus..... our sins have been forgiven, they are remembered no more. 

Like you say:   "Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand, 4th Grade Reading Comprehension."

 

[FreeGrace]

43 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Jesus ruling with a rod of iron,is showing his destruction of the wicked at his second coming, as a potter destroys clay vessels with a rod of iron

C'mon, that's not what that means.  Seems you think the verse means "He will destroy the nations with a rod of iron".  But it doesn't SAY that.  Stick with what is written, not what you opine it means.

King Jesus will rule the MK "with a rod of iron".  Not real hard to figure out.  He will be ruling over the mortal unsaved, who survived the Tribulation.  In today's numbers, that would be a roundabout 4 billion people.

43 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

No such thing found in scripture as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

Such claims ignore Rev 20.  It couldn't have been written any more clear.  Jesus comes back, all the saved are resurrected and will rule with Him or serve Him during the 1,000 year MK where King Jesus will rule with a rod of iron, all the unsaved survivors of the Tribulation.  There surely WILL BE a "final judgment" and that will occur 1,000 years AFTER the King comes back to earth.  Rev 20:11-15.  

What do you have against Rev 20 anyway?

43 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 2:27KJV

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

John 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So you think this refutes John's epistle, huh?  Aren't you aware that John wrote both the gospel and Revelation?  Do you honestly think he forgot what he wrote and then contradicted himself?

Rev 20 reads literally.  Not figuratively.  But it seems you'd rather not deal with that.