The woman in Revelation 12

[Alive]

1 minute ago, other one said:

It helps to understand the general knowledge at the time its written. The cosmology of the time can add to the context.

As I have suggested before…I believe when the letter was circulated, those folks knew exactly what it all meant. That the Holy Spirit through teachers made sure of this. I do not believe anyone today fully understands it and neither is it necessary.

Why? Because, if it was…it would be clear. 

[other one]

37 minutes ago, Alive said:

As I have suggested before…I believe when the letter was circulated, those folks knew exactly what it all meant. That the Holy Spirit through teachers made sure of this. I do not believe anyone today fully understands it and neither is it necessary.

Why? Because, if it was…it would be clear. 

Why?   That is a good question....   another is "Was it meant to be that way, or have we over the years failed to keep the understanding?

My people perish for the lack of knowledge or something like that   Have we lost the details because we no longer understand the general knowledge of the time, and no longer want people to study that knowledge, but only use what was written down.

It really bothers me that we do actually do that.

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, other one said:

Why?   That is a good question....   another is "Was it meant to be that way, or have we over the years failed to keep the understanding?

My people perish for the lack of knowledge or something like that   Have we lost the details because we no longer understand the general knowledge of the time, and no longer want people to study that knowledge, but only use what was written down.

It really bothers me that we do actually do that.

Although, I can appreciate your thoughts here, I tend to think in terms of what the Lord wants us to understand. If it was vital? If it was relevant?

I believe, we would know.  The catagory, IMO, is muc different than those things related to our Salvation and our ongoing Sanctification, as well as the practical aspects of how we should relate to each other.

[Sister]

On 11/4/2022 at 10:01 PM, Uriah said:

I have heard some viewpoints on this topic but probably not all. Please share your thoughts on this. I will add a couple things later today on this topic. 

I testify that the woman in Rev 12 is God's woman - his wife.  Her name is Zion.

God's woman is not physical, but a metaphor for his doctrine which is the truth.

God and his doctrine (truth) is like a marriage and they cannot be separated.  God's doctrine/truth produces children who will be in the resurrection.  When we come to God we come to the truth.  The truth is our umbrella, and the truth shall set you free. 

Without truth, we can only grope in the dark, and without it we cannot hear our God's voice nor know him.

Israel cannot be God's woman, because God's woman is lifted so high, covered with the sun (light/truth) that even Israel need her.

The 12 stars on the woman's crown are the 12 tribes of Jacob.  A symbol of what's to come in the near future.  The 12 tribes will serve Zion again, in truth, after being corrected and will receive authority over the remnant of the nations.  All will happen after Christ's return for it is written throughout the OT, that they will return to Zion.

Israel were the first called to serve Zion, and even before Israel was formed Abraham dwelt in her, so did Enoch and Elijah, Job etc.  Whoever does all that God commands dwells in God's woman and shall be nurtured for salvation.

And there is a new commandment now that whoever believes and walks in Christ will be invited to seek of her treasures.

Sorry this is so long but this is my shortest version of explaining.  If this is not understood the whole interpretation of Rev 12 goes down the wrong path.

[Vine Abider]

28 minutes ago, Sister said:

I testify that the woman in Rev 12 is God's woman - his wife.  Her name is Zion.

God's woman is not physical, but a metaphor for his doctrine which is the truth.

God and his doctrine (truth) is like a marriage and they cannot be separated.  God's doctrine/truth produces children who will be in the resurrection.  When we come to God we come to the truth.  The truth is our umbrella, and the truth shall set you free. 

Without truth, we can only grope in the dark, and without it we cannot hear our God's voice nor know him.

Israel cannot be God's woman, because God's woman is lifted so high, covered with the sun (light/truth) that even Israel need her.

The 12 stars on the woman's crown are the 12 tribes of Jacob.  A symbol of what's to come in the near future.  The 12 tribes will serve Zion again, in truth, after being corrected and will receive authority over the remnant of the nations.  All will happen after Christ's return for it is written throughout the OT, that they will return to Zion.

Israel were the first called to serve Zion, and even before Israel was formed Abraham dwelt in her, so did Enoch and Elijah, Job etc.  Whoever does all that God commands dwells in God's woman and shall be nurtured for salvation.

And there is a new commandment now that whoever believes and walks in Christ will be invited to seek of her treasures.

Sorry this is so long but this is my shortest version of explaining.  If this is not understood the whole interpretation of Rev 12 goes down the wrong path.

I think I agree with you - the woman is all God's people, right?

[Sister]

Hello Vine

Thank you.  The woman is God's truth.  The truth is above all and God's people dwell in Zion (the truth).  We are not the truth, but dwell in the truth that is given.

Here is a scripture to give an example;

 Psalms 132:13   For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

Psalms 132:14   This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Psalms 132:15   I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.

Psalms 132:16   I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
 

The LORD has chosen to dwell in Zion, meaning he dwells in the truth.  He could of chosen to dwell in darkness if he wanted to, but he chose to dwell in the light.

Even the priests will God clothe with Zion (truth).  So they cannot be God's woman but are fed by her with that bread that comes from heaven.  Truth.

 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I hear you brother. The order and contents of Revelation are somewhat mysteriously written. The Revelation (the "Un-covering") of the New King of earth is surrounded by details we would not write. But upon closer inspection, they have their place. Daniel 2:44-45 is the model, or summary of Revelation. It reads;

 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

- If we take the Nations, who have ruled since Nebuchadnezzar, we find their political (an probably their military) leaders in the ten kings.
- Then we have the Kingdom of God "not left to other people". This is difficult. Are the "other people" Israel, to whom the Lord came with the "Kingdom at hand". Or does it mean the present rulers - the Gentiles. Suffice to say, this verse introduces the remaining two peoples on earth beside "ALL Nations" - (i) Israel and/or (ii) the Church.
- Verse 44 ends in a difficulty. How can God's army destroy ALL the Kingdoms? The dream specifies that one Kingdom follows the next. The time span is 2,500 years (from Nebuchadnezzar to the Beast). There are FOUR Kingdoms. How does God's army destry something that was long destroyed by the next kingdom?
- Verse 45 leaves no doubt. The "stone" smashes Kingdoms long left to rot into corruption. the Lord is predicted to destroy nations that are long destroyed. 

I understand that the comprehensiveness, order and sequence of Revelation fulfills the needs of these prophecies. For instance, most students recognize that after Chapter 3, Revelation is mainly about Israel and the Nations. But the last two Chapters thrust the Church into the foreground again  but without the designation "The Church".

Indeed. I don't think the the order of events can be comprehensively arranged accurately and certainly not to everyone's satisfaction. 

What I understand about the woman of Ch 12 is she is Israel the people and nation. Out of her came Christ and the Apostles, true Israel, the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The true church, which is identical to true spiritual Israel, is the remnant of the seed of the woman, the nation and people called Israel, born of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Christ, and the Apostles. [order of lineage, not order of importance]

Because of this my opinion is most students and scholars and pastors, preachers and teachers are wrong. The 'church' is not a separate entity, the church throughout scripture is spiritual Israel consisting of born again, spirit filled believers in the Lord Jesus and His resurrection. And so the remnant of the seed of the woman in Ch. 12 is the congregation of the believers, Jew and Gentile together as a single group identified by their faith in God, and that is the group pursed by the dragon once the remnant of the national Jews have fled and are safe.

I don't know the reason behind this but for whatever divine purpose our Father has determined national and religious liturgical Jewry must be preserved and turn to Him in spirit and truth. There is some great truth about this I don't understand but some vital importance is placed on religious Jewry to once and for all abandon ancient religion and acknowledge Jesus as Lord. 

That act of abandoning the law written on stone by the surviving nation of Jewry is what we will be waiting for before Jesus returns.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Alive said:

As I have suggested before…I believe when the letter was circulated, those folks knew exactly what it all meant. That the Holy Spirit through teachers made sure of this. I do not believe anyone today fully understands it and neither is it necessary.

Why? Because, if it was…it would be clear. 

If you're referring to prophecy it's never clear till it's happening. OT prophecies about Jesus 1st coming weren't understood either, before or after. Perhaps by a very few the prophecies of Jesus coming were understood but the Jews denied it all then and still have the same idea today; that an earthly king of the line of David will sweep in and destroy their enemies. 

We know that's way off kilter.

Because we don't don't fully understand doesn't make any of it less valid nor does important truth diminish. Mankind will deliberately misunderstand, often in reckless fashion, but the timeless truth of the eternal God never fades.

Failing to fully understand is the very reason continued searching is necessary and prudent.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, other one said:

It helps to understand the general knowledge at the time its written. The cosmology of the time can add to the context.

How so?

The Revelation is for a time when it will begin to come to pass. 

It was given to man by the eternal God. 

Why would we need the understanding of man to define the words of an eternal God and/or increase our understanding of that God?

Doesn't the eternal Spirit of God guide us in all truth?

 

[other one]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

How so?

The Revelation is for a time when it will begin to come to pass. 

It was given to man by the eternal God. 

Why would we need the understanding of man to define the words of an eternal God and/or increase our understanding of that God?

Doesn't the eternal Spirit of God guide us in all truth?

 

I suppose you might be right if the Holy Spirit dictated every word that was put into all the letters that turned out to be our Bible.   I think the writers of those letters used words and phrases that were common knowledge at the time to express what was given to them and sometimes we need to understand those things to grasp the context of what's being said.