marriage - how culturally pre-programmed are "men" and "women"?

[Liese]

3 minutes ago, com7fy8 said:

Yes, a person is clothed with Christ.

That affects the old things of the person's personality and old gender identity things. 

Jesus makes all things new. You discover who you are becoming with each other, right?

My hubby's been sharing the past few days seeking to go counterculture to the cultural genders - he sees how the culture affects our 'genderhood' and seeks the 'neither male nor female' to the degree that it aligns with the culture of Heaven vs. this world.

[AnOrangeCat]

On 2/2/2023 at 10:06 AM, com7fy8 said:

I hear preachers saying that "men" are this and "women" are that; and so the ladies need to know what is generally true about "men", while the guys had better understand what is generally true about their wives.

This has been a matter that's always made me slump and sigh a little. This is in no way my being down on the topic itself so much as that I've long felt that many of the statements made about it are more or less true of all people to varying degrees and are more rooted in pop psychology and cultural notions than they are in the Bible or reality. Even within the context of the Bible you see some gender related statements that were probably influenced heavily by the time and place.

Case in point, in I Corinthians 14 there's some verses where Paul says women should keep silent in church, and it's drawn a lot of criticism in modern times. But if you look at both other portions of the book and the chapter as a whole it gives more perspective. Paul was speaking on keeping church services from falling into chaos by letting everyone do as they pleased at any given moment. He also states that if a woman wants to learn she should ask her husband at home. With all the context in mind it seems rather clear to me that the intent isn't to oppress women or make them of lesser status. It's just saying that instead of disrupting a church service with basic questions that would be already known and already answered to many of the audience members women who wanted to learn more should just save their questions for their husbands at home.

[choir loft]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:06 AM, com7fy8 said:

 Hi -

I hear preachers saying that "men" are this and "women" are that; and so the ladies need to know what is generally true about "men", while the guys had better understand what is generally true about their wives.

"Men" need "respect".

"Women" need to be told they are loved.

"Men" need to find out how to listen to their wives.

"Wives" need to do . . . something, so they can get along with their husbands.

As you can see I'm already not remembering the list of things I have been told by certain preachers.

So, do you find that there are general rules for men knowing how to relate with their wives? And do women need to learn certain general rules for how to handle their husbands?

Since nobody today acknowledges God's LAW as outlined in the Bible, the question above is moot.

Many Jews don't acknowledge God's LAW as binding at all.  Indeed they embrace tradition and don't even feel the need to believe in the existence of the One who led them out of Egyptian bondage and made them a nation.  Many Jews reject Torah(the LAW).

Many non-Jews don't acknowledge God's LAW as outlined in the Bible.  Church types embrace hyper-grace, which is nothing more than cheap demonic religious licentiousness.  Church types have invented and embraced their own tradition and stumbled into it even as Jews before them have done.  Church types reject the LAW also.

It's become popular among greedy preachers to deny the LAW and its rule upon our lives and hearts SO AS to obtain greater donation$.  Many have one hand on the Bible and the other hand in someone else's pocket (sometimes their pants too). (*)

because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12)

Nobody wants to hear of their need to REPENT, yet that is the very purpose of the LAW - to convince of SIN and the need for Teshuvah (Hebrew for repentance).

Because we've abandoned the LAW, God's gold standard, social and sexual roles are neither easily nor clearly defined.  These roles have been changed by economic factors, endless war, media hype, popular literature, increasingly violent and sexual entertainment (even for children), rabid political agenda and even sermons from the pulpit eroded by aforementioned gain.

What rules ought we define and obey?  

Nobody really knows.  Not even the author of the first post in this thread can reference them.   Everybody has an opinion.   Nobody gives a damn about God's definition - God's Word and certainly not God's LAW.  Nobody is aware of it and nobody cares to DO IT even if they did.

Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”

But they deliberately overlook ... the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (1 Peter 3:3-7)

The Day of Reckoning is fast approaching.  All manner of wickedness that opposes God's LAW will be swept away, including OPINION as to how one ought to express the relationship between men and women. 

It is time for the ancient teshuvah to be applied - time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness which we from time to time most grievously have committed. 

The Day of Reckoning is near.  We must REPENT while time still allows....and not the church only but all those we love and work with and enjoy life with.

God is not willing that any should perish, but many of us simply DON'T CARE to receive of His forgiveness.

REPENT

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) It is a hypocritical example of churches today that they deny being bound by the LAW (Torah) even as they demand a tithe of one's income (10%) BY THE LAW.   The NT nowhere demands a percentage of income as donation, but the church does.  Which is it, LAW or no LAW?  If no LAW, then one doesn't owe a single cent to the church.

Edited February 5, 2023 by choir loft

[Waggles]

20 hours ago, choir loft said:

Nobody really knows.  Not even the author of the first post in this thread can reference them.   Everybody has an opinion.   Nobody gives a damn about God's definition - God's Word and certainly not God's LAW.  Nobody is aware of it and nobody cares to DO IT even if they did.

OK then what is God's LAW concerning male and female; men and women; husbands and wives; fathers and mothers; marriage; family ... ???

[kwikphilly]

22 hours ago, choir loft said:

Since nobody today acknowledges God's LAW as outlined in the Bible, the question above is moot.

Many Jews don't acknowledge God's LAW as binding at all.  Indeed they embrace tradition and don't even feel the need to believe in the existence of the One who led them out of Egyptian bondage and made them a nation.  Many Jews reject Torah(the LAW).

Many non-Jews don't acknowledge God's LAW as outlined in the Bible.  Church types embrace hyper-grace, which is nothing more than cheap demonic religious licentiousness.  Church types have invented and embraced their own tradition and stumbled into it even as Jews before them have done.  Church types reject the LAW also.

It's become popular among greedy preachers to deny the LAW and its rule upon our lives and hearts SO AS to obtain greater donation$.  Many have one hand on the Bible and the other hand in someone else's pocket (sometimes their pants too). (*)

because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12)

Nobody wants to hear of their need to REPENT, yet that is the very purpose of the LAW - to convince of SIN and the need for Teshuvah (Hebrew for repentance).

Because we've abandoned the LAW, God's gold standard, social and sexual roles are neither easily nor clearly defined.  These roles have been changed by economic factors, endless war, media hype, popular literature, increasingly violent and sexual entertainment (even for children), rabid political agenda and even sermons from the pulpit eroded by aforementioned gain.

What rules ought we define and obey?  

Nobody really knows.  Not even the author of the first post in this thread can reference them.   Everybody has an opinion.   Nobody gives a damn about God's definition - God's Word and certainly not God's LAW.  Nobody is aware of it and nobody cares to DO IT even if they did.

Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”

But they deliberately overlook ... the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (1 Peter 3:3-7)

The Day of Reckoning is fast approaching.  All manner of wickedness that opposes God's LAW will be swept away, including OPINION as to how one ought to express the relationship between men and women. 

It is time for the ancient teshuvah to be applied - time to REPENT of our SINs and wickedness which we from time to time most grievously have committed. 

The Day of Reckoning is near.  We must REPENT while time still allows....and not the church only but all those we love and work with and enjoy life with.

God is not willing that any should perish, but many of us simply DON'T CARE to receive of His forgiveness.

REPENT

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) It is a hypocritical example of churches today that they deny being bound by the LAW (Torah) even as they demand a tithe of one's income (10%) BY THE LAW.   The NT nowhere demands a percentage of income as donation, but the church does.  Which is it, LAW or no LAW?  If no LAW, then one doesn't owe a single cent to the church.

Blessings CL

I'm not even sure how Jewish folks not acknowledging the Covenant with God came into play as I believe the discussion is one started by a Brother and hoping the Brethren will reply from a Christian perspective.    Maybe I'm mistaken but whether Jews uphold the Law or not is irrelevant

You can holler from the choir loft all you like about whatever you like but saying no one knows what " rules" we ought to define and obey is quite an assumption imo.Jesus Told us very plain & simple " LOVE"- Love God First,with all our heart ,soul & mind and Love one another as we live ourselves- He Said that LOVE sums up ALL the Law and it is the Greatest Command

Cannot get any simpler than that,if you love God & love others how could you break any " rules"? I know you've read what Love is in Cor 13 where Love never fails & it does not- without envy we could not covet,without boasting we are humble,to protect ,to serve,trust,preserve you cannot steal,injure,murder,commit adultery or lie- yes,love never fails.But this Love Spoken of in God's Word is the LOVE that comes from the Power of Holy Spirit,the Love of Christ Who Abides in us- not a carnal love,it is Eternal Love from the very Heart & Mind if Jesus Christ!

Jesus Said " IF" you love ME,you WILL follow my Commands .... Does that sound like a mandate or a result ?

And I'm sorry for your experience with preachers that use " the Law" or peddle Scripture to intimidate people to " tithe"- my church has envelopes that have a little saying on it" It's not a debt I owe  but a seed I sow" God so Loves a cheerful giver! And it's totally up to the individual if he wants to make an offering.- Again,I don't see what the Law,rules to obey or tithing has to do with marriage .

I'm far from an authority on marriage myself but I know the way Jesus Loves His Bride so a man should love his wife, shouldn't be difficult to do for a true man of God to love a woman ...though I've not married such a one!!!!

With love in Christ,Kwik

.

[TheBlade]

Well its wise to ask seek listen to those that came before those older in the faith. When your young.. good luck with this haha. 

[Liese]

What is biblical female and male / masculinity and femininity at core anyway - anyone have biblical references they're willing to share/debate?