Revelation 11:18

[JoeCanada]

Let's look at two versions of Revelation 11:18:

From the NASB:

"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

From the King James:

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I quoted these two scriptures from the NASB and King James as they seem to be the most popular Bibles in use on this forum. You may correct me if I'm wrong.

In looking at the various versions,  of the 30 bibles there is about a 50/50 (16 to 14) split in the translation of " Your wrath came.... and.... Your wrath is come".

Does it make a difference?

It makes a world of difference.

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If we look at the beginning of the verse, it says "the nations were enraged.... the nations were angry". This is past tense. Most all of the 30 versions use the same tense....'were'.

So which is correct?....:

"The nations were enraged, and thy wrath came?

                             or

"The nations were angry and thy wrath is come"

Here is why it makes a difference. 

Pre-wrath believes that Jesus comes on the clouds after the 6th seal is opened and,  with a SHOUT and with the trumpet of God, sends His angels to collect the resurrected dead and the alive in Christ, together, and escorts them to heaven to present them to the Father. Then God's wrath begins with the trumpets and ends with the bowls.

Which rev 11:18 being past tense would work. Its like a recap of past events. 

Now, post-trib is a little different in that they  seem to believe that the resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet, ie the 7th trumpet,  and then God's wrath commences with the bowl judgments.

Which rev 11:18 as a present tense could work, except the saints would then be subject to the wrath of God in the trumpet judgments. Post trib works around this by claiming that the last trumpet is the same as the 7th trumpet and that the seals and trumpets open together, sort of, and only the bowls are the wrath of God. 

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

 

 

[abcdef]

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Let's look at two versions of Revelation 11:18:

From the NASB:

"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

 

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

From the King James:

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I quoted these two scriptures from the NASB and King James as they seem to be the most popular Bibles in use on this forum. You may correct me if I'm wrong.

In looking at the various versions,  of the 30 bibles there is about a 50/50 (16 to 14) split in the translation of " Your wrath came.... and.... Your wrath is come".

Does it make a difference?

It makes a world of difference.

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If we look at the beginning of the verse, it says "the nations were enraged.... the nations were angry". This is past tense. Most all of the 30 versions use the same tense....'were'.

So which is correct?....:

"The nations were enraged, and thy wrath came?

                             or

"The nations were angry and thy wrath is come"

Here is why it makes a difference. 

Pre-wrath believes that Jesus comes on the clouds after the 6th seal is opened and,  with a SHOUT and with the trumpet of God, sends His angels to collect the resurrected dead and the alive in Christ, together, and escorts them to heaven to present them to the Father. Then God's wrath begins with the trumpets and ends with the bowls.

Which rev 11:18 being past tense would work. Its like a recap of past events. 

Now, post-trib is a little different in that they  seem to believe that the resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet, ie the 7th trumpet,  and then God's wrath commences with the bowl judgments.

Which rev 11:18 as a present tense could work, except the saints would then be subject to the wrath of God in the trumpet judgments. Post trib works around this by claiming that the last trumpet is the same as the 7th trumpet and that the seals and trumpets open together, sort of, and only the bowls are the wrath of God. 

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

My brother,

Context is everything, and sometimes assumptions are made, of course.

What is the "wrath" that has come/came?

AS you pointed out, many believe the the wrath is the trumpets and vials, which they are obviously wrath. 

But there is a third possibility, and that is that the wrath is neither one, but is only referring to the events that take place at the 7th trumpet, by itself.

This is made possible by the 6th trumpet army that is headed to Jerusalem after the 6th trumpet is sounded. It doesn't say exactly what happens as a result of the armies that are from across the Euphrates River, in this passage.

So it could be assumed that the wrath is directed at the armies of the 6th trumpet.

----

The 7th trumpet sounds, after it sounds, the wrath is being poured out. While the wrath is being poured out, voices are heard.

While the wrath is happening, "Thy wrath is come," at that time.

While the wrath is happening, "Thy wrath came," as promised, in this passage, at that time.

-----

Also, a lot depends on if the Revelation is consecutive or parallel passages.

[Keras]

16 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

One is present tense and one is past tense.

Revelation 11:18 is a very tricky verse. It says the Lord's wrath has come; the terrible Sixth Seal and the 7 Trumpet disasters. Past events.   Then it says it is time for the Judgment and rewards, but before that, He must destroy those who destroy the earth. Which He will do by the Seven Bowls of Revelation 16:1-21.

Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which is the Battle of Armageddon, the final destruction of all the ungodly peoples on earth. 

This must be right, as in Revelation 12 to 13, we see how Satan is thrown out of heaven and will rule the world for 42 months and faithful people of God, are put in a place of safety for that time. After that - Jesus will Return, bringing our Rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27

Edited February 3, 2023 by Keras

[Revelation Man]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

Does it make a difference?

Makes no difference, your wrath has come and has came can be Juxtaposed against a ball game. 

Lets say I describe a game as a Massacre in waiting when Alabama plays Vanderbilt. Then during the game, after predicting a 50 point win, I tweet out, Vandy's beat down has come or has came it matters not, its ongoing, if it was over I would says has came and past. The thing is most people could never understand these things so it was hard for then to translate, tbh. 

 

On 2/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

Which rev 11:18 being past tense would work. Its like a recap of past events. 

Now, post-trib is a little different in that they  seem to believe that the resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet, ie the 7th trumpet,  and then God's wrath commences with the bowl judgments.

Which rev 11:18 as a present tense could work, except the saints would then be subject to the wrath of God in the trumpet judgments. Post trib works around this by claiming that the last trumpet is the same as the 7th trumpet and that the seals and trumpets open together, sort of, and only the bowls are the wrath of God. 

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

The biggest problem is most people always get the timing of the book of Revelation (BoR) wrong. 

Rev. 1 is just John seeing Jesus in all his Glory (The THINGS you have seen and that even touches on his death)

Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age (The things WHICH ARE) 

Rev. 4 and everything after is the (HEREAFTER.....After the Church Age.)

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in heaven  while Jesus opens the Seals (which do nothing in reality)

Rev. 6 is Jesus simply Prophesying what will happen over the next 42 months once the 7th Seal is opened up. The Descriptions ARE Seals 1-5 (what the Anti-Christs actions bring) and Seal #6 what God's Wrath will bring (an Asteroid Impact and Darkness, fire etc.) and both parallel exactly, why? Because the Anti-Christ can only go forth conquering as the 7th Seal is opened and the Wrath of God is brought forth, over a 42 month period of time.

Rev. 7 is simply a code (144,000) for ALL Israel who repent then flee unto the Petra/Bozrah area (3.5-5 million Jews)

Rev. 8 is when God's WRATH FIRST FALLS. not in Rev. 6, that is a Prophetic Utterance by Jesus like unto Joel's Prophetic Utterance in Joel 2:31. Rev. 8s four Trumps are ONE asteroid event.

Rev. 9 is that wrath continuing in Woes 1 and 2. We see Woes 2 and 3 spoken of in Rev. 11 right? So, Rev. 11 can not be anything other than a Parenthetical Citation chapter, because Woes #1 and 2 happen in Rev. 9 !!

Rev. 16 (really 15&16 are one chapter) wraps up God's Wrath. The 7th Trump brings the 3rd Woe, which is all Seven Vials being poured out onto mankind. This 3rd Woe is cited in Rev. 11 also, but we get the details in Rev. 16.

Every thing ABOVE is the Chronological Order of the BoR, everything BELOW here are mere Parenthetical Citations.

Rev. 10 simply is God telling us that the Wrath all comes from the 7 Trumps (Thunders). It is both sweet and sour when John eats it for a reason. Its sweet because without Judgment we can't move on from this fallen, wicked world, it is sour and bitter because billions of our fellow brothers on earth will die. Its just that basic tbh.

Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses Ministry which starts 1335 days before Jesus' Second Coming. Their ministry will last for 1260 days however, not 1335 days, so they must die before the Beast dies, because they show up before the Beast and vice versa. God's Wrath comes at the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments (Trumps 1-4) continues at the Revelation 9 Trumps 5 and 6 (Woes 1 and 2), and will finish up in the Rev. 16 Seventh Trump, which is indeed the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials. When we see the Two-witnesses die during the 2nd Woe, REMEMBER we got the DETAILS of the 2nd Woe in Rev. 9 right? LIKEWISE we get the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe in Rev. 16, even though Rev. 11 tells us the 3rd Woe comes quickly, we get the details in Revelation chapter 16, not in Rev. 11, we are however told it will bring victory. 

Rev. 12 is about Satan and Him chasing Israel, but not being able to get at them. 

Rev. 13 is about the Anti-Christs 42 month reign.

Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter. We see the Jews on Mt. Zion, but that's just prose, Jesus will rule from Jerusalem for 1000, and that represents Jesus Harvesting the Wheat (Israel) into his Fathers barn. We also see the Wicked Grapes being Harvested into the Wine-press of God's Wrath in verses 17-20. NOW we need to understand that, Rev. 14:14 is a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture, where Jesus doesn't come to earth but calls us up to meet him, thus he is pictured here as upon a cloud Harvesting the Church ( Barley ). 

Rev. 17 is just God showing us that ALL FALSE RELIGION (The Harlot) will be judged.

Rev. 18 is just God showing us Babylon (this whole Evil World under Satan's Rule) will be judged. Thus Satan is locked up for 1000 years.

Rev. 19 is the Bride Marrying Jesus just after the Pre Trib Rapture, in Heaven, then we (Church/Bride) return with Jesus at his Second Coming and Armageddon is our "Marriage Supper". 

Until one understands that Rev. 11 is not a REAL TIME Chapter per se, they can never understand, in full, the timing of the BoR.  The COME and/or the CAME  phrases are meaningless overall, if one understands the timing, they will understand the BoR if they don't they will not get it anyway. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Revelation Man

[WilliamL]

On 2/2/2023 at 8:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

Excellent analysis in your post. My only wee addition is to note that Bible translators are not immune to the influence of their personal eschatological beliefs; and these beliefs can color their interpretation of passages such as these.

[Diaste]

On 2/2/2023 at 8:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

Let's look at two versions of Revelation 11:18:

From the NASB:

"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

From the King James:

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I quoted these two scriptures from the NASB and King James as they seem to be the most popular Bibles in use on this forum. You may correct me if I'm wrong.

In looking at the various versions,  of the 30 bibles there is about a 50/50 (16 to 14) split in the translation of " Your wrath came.... and.... Your wrath is come".

Does it make a difference?

It makes a world of difference.

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If we look at the beginning of the verse, it says "the nations were enraged.... the nations were angry". This is past tense. Most all of the 30 versions use the same tense....'were'.

So which is correct?....:

"The nations were enraged, and thy wrath came?

                             or

"The nations were angry and thy wrath is come"

Here is why it makes a difference. 

Pre-wrath believes that Jesus comes on the clouds after the 6th seal is opened and,  with a SHOUT and with the trumpet of God, sends His angels to collect the resurrected dead and the alive in Christ, together, and escorts them to heaven to present them to the Father. Then God's wrath begins with the trumpets and ends with the bowls.

Which rev 11:18 being past tense would work. Its like a recap of past events. 

Now, post-trib is a little different in that they  seem to believe that the resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet, ie the 7th trumpet,  and then God's wrath commences with the bowl judgments.

Which rev 11:18 as a present tense could work, except the saints would then be subject to the wrath of God in the trumpet judgments. Post trib works around this by claiming that the last trumpet is the same as the 7th trumpet and that the seals and trumpets open together, sort of, and only the bowls are the wrath of God. 

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

 

This same idea exists in Rev 6:17. It's also the same word for 'has/is come', ēlthen.

This is the same word for 'has/is come' in Rev 11:18.

Both are aorist indicative active tense, as it were; verb tenses are not the job of the aorist. With the aorist it's not a past action that's over nor a future event that hasn't arrived, it's an existence of a condition that's ongoing. In each case then, both indicate an arrival of an active condition.

In both cases 'ēlthen' is V-AIA-3S. This doesn't indicate a future action in Rev 6:17 and then a past action in Rev 11:18. Nor can it indicate an action that began in the past in one, Rev 11:18, and at the same time indicate an action that will soon begin, Rev 6:17.

In the reading I have done about the aorist the particular linguist described the aorist as 'being in a plane, flying over a parade, and taking a picture of the parade; the picture is the aorist'. That means there isn't a clue to beginning, ending or duration, it just is.

To be consistent then 'ēlthen', in the same AIA-3S in both cases, would have to indicate the same condition of past, present, or future, in both cases. Since the aorist doesn't do verb tenses like American English we can't rely on our language perception. 

If the action is past in Rev 11:18 then it also must be past in Rev 6:17. It's not past in Rev 6:17 so it's not past in Rev 11:18 either. That means it's arriving at that moment and the action of 'orgēs' is presently in existence. 

Which also is one bit of evidence for the 6th seal and the 7th trump to occur in conjunction. Which they do. 

The several variations, and there are many, are still accurate. In the English vernacular 'has' is 3S simple present indicative form of have. That means the condition is present, not past. "Had' is past tense. No translator used 'had come' in either instance. 

The problem of application in eschatological systems probably comes about more through perception, world view, and nurture than objective analysis. We tend to desire, not listen or search it out. If we like it we call it truth. 

So the two schools of thought, prewrath and posttrib, only have an issue with understanding what is being said on the whole. 

The problems are solved if seals and trumps are concurrent/successive right up to the moment of the opening of the 6th seal and the sounding of the 7th trump, which is when wrath begins. 

Prewrath is more in keeping with the order of events from the Olivet Discourse. Post trib needs the realize the 'tribulation period' ends before the end of the week. Really, prewrath and posttrib are nearly the same. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Diaste

[Uriah]

On 2/2/2023 at 10:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

So which is correct?....:

Hi Joe

The word, "came" is also subject to context. Here is a small example; my kids looked out the window and said, "look, uncle Bernie came" as he was opening the door. Did he come? Yes. When did he come? Now. When would you say he came? Now. A good synonym would be, "arrived."

[iamlamad]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:49 PM, JoeCanada said:

Let's look at two versions of Revelation 11:18:

From the NASB:

"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

From the King James:

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I quoted these two scriptures from the NASB and King James as they seem to be the most popular Bibles in use on this forum. You may correct me if I'm wrong.

In looking at the various versions,  of the 30 bibles there is about a 50/50 (16 to 14) split in the translation of " Your wrath came.... and.... Your wrath is come".

Does it make a difference?

It makes a world of difference.

One is present tense and one is past tense.

If we look at the beginning of the verse, it says "the nations were enraged.... the nations were angry". This is past tense. Most all of the 30 versions use the same tense....'were'.

So which is correct?....:

"The nations were enraged, and thy wrath came?

                             or

"The nations were angry and thy wrath is come"

Here is why it makes a difference. 

Pre-wrath believes that Jesus comes on the clouds after the 6th seal is opened and,  with a SHOUT and with the trumpet of God, sends His angels to collect the resurrected dead and the alive in Christ, together, and escorts them to heaven to present them to the Father. Then God's wrath begins with the trumpets and ends with the bowls.

Which rev 11:18 being past tense would work. Its like a recap of past events. 

Now, post-trib is a little different in that they  seem to believe that the resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet, ie the 7th trumpet,  and then God's wrath commences with the bowl judgments.

Which rev 11:18 as a present tense could work, except the saints would then be subject to the wrath of God in the trumpet judgments. Post trib works around this by claiming that the last trumpet is the same as the 7th trumpet and that the seals and trumpets open together, sort of, and only the bowls are the wrath of God. 

How one reads Rev 11:18 and applies that to their understanding of end-times.... well, the problem is here stated.

 

 

The truth is, neither is right. "Is come" comes from a Greek Aorist verb. Such verbs are simply not inflected to show ANY tense. When was use the English word, Amoral, the leading A changes the meaning. Same with Atypical. The leading A in Aorist does the same time, meaning NO tense.

It is impossible to translate such a verb into English for we have no verbs with "no tense." The translators must choose one. Some choose past tense, others chose present tense.

How are we to understand such verbs? Just imaging "wrath" without any timing. It would seem then that present tense would be the best choice.

John uses MANY of these Aorist verbs in Revelation. I think the best way to understand is pick the first mention of wrath, which is at the 6th seal, and that is where God begins His wrath. Therefore it continues on through the entire Week. As I read it, God begins the Day of His wrath first, then starts the 70th week. That puts the 70th week INSIDE the Day of His wrath, so every judgment event in the trumpets and vials come with His wrath.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

This same idea exists in Rev 6:17. It's also the same word for 'has/is come', ēlthen.

This it the same word for 'has/is come' in Rev 11:18.

Both are aorist indicative active tense, as it were; verb tenses are not the job of the aorist. With the aorist it's not a past action that's over nor a future event that hasn't arrived, it's an existence of a condition that's ongoing. In each case then, both indicate an arrival of an active condition.

In both cases 'ēlthen' is V-AIA-3S. This doesn't indicate a future action in Rev 6:17 and then a past action in Rev 11:18. Nor can it indicate an action that began in the past in one, Rev 11:18, and at the same time indicate an action that will soon begin, Rev 6:17.

In the reading I have done about the aorist the particular linguist described the aorist as 'being in a plane, flying over a parade, and taking a picture of the parade; the picture is the aorist'. That means there isn't a clue to beginning, ending or duration, it just is.

To be consistent then 'ēlthen', in the same AIA-3S in both cases, would have to indicate the same condition of past, present, or future, in both cases. Since the aorist doesn't do verb tenses like American English we can't rely on our language perception. 

If the action is past in Rev 11:18 then it also must be past in Rev 6:17. It's not past in Rev 6:17 so it's not past in Rev 11:18 either. That means it's arriving at that moment and the action of 'orgēs' is presently in existence. 

Which also is one bit of evidence for the 6th seal and the 7th trump to occur in conjunction. Which they do. 

The several variations, and there are many, are still accurate. In the English vernacular 'has' is 3S simple present indicative form of have. That means the condition is present, not past. "Had' is past tense. No translator used 'had come' in either instance. 

The problem of application in eschatological systems probably comes about more through perception, world view, and nurture than objective analysis. We tend to desire, not listen or search it out. If we like it we call it truth. 

So the two schools of thought, prewrath and posttrib, only have an issue with understanding what is being said on the whole. 

The problems are solved if seals and trumps are concurrent/successive right up to the moment of the opening of the 6th seal and the sounding of the 7th trump, which is when wrath begins. 

Prewrath is more in keeping with the order of events from the Olivet Discourse. Post trib needs the realize the 'tribulation period' ends before the end of the week. Really, prewrath and posttrib are nearly the same. 

Quote

Which also is one bit of evidence for the 6th seal and the 7th trump to occur in conjunction. Which they do. 

Sorry, but since the trumpets are written inside the book, and the book cannot get opened until all seven seals are opened first, I must disagree with this. John's order is, seals first, then the trumpets, then the vials.

[JoeCanada]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:42 AM, abcdef said:

But there is a third possibility, and that is that the wrath is neither one, but is only referring to the events that take place at the 7th trumpet, by itself.

This is made possible by the 6th trumpet army that is headed to Jerusalem after the 6th trumpet is sounded. It doesn't say exactly what happens as a result of the armies that are from across the Euphrates River, in this passage.

So it could be assumed that the wrath is directed at the armies of the 6th trumpet.

my brother from another mother,

I really do not see this as a possibility.

First of all, if every army in the world, including reservists, could field this army of 200 million on horses, there are not even enough horses, even if one were to include race horses and show horses and draft horses and ponies etc. These horsemen and their riders in Rev 9:16 have to be demon armies.

Second, there is nowhere that says this 'army' heads to Jerusalem. It does say that they would kill a third of mankind by three plagues, by the fire and smoke and brimstone that proceeds from their mouths.

Third, it doesn't even say that the 'army' is from 'across the Euphrates River'. It says that they were 'bound AT the great Euphrates River.

So, indeed there is a lot of assumptions going on.