Eternal Salvation – From the Perspective of Life

[phoneman-777]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

But even if we do swing from the other tree, who we are in Christ (children of God with His life in us) does not change - we're just misbehaving children who need some correction.

The text says we either abide (which denotes PERMANENCE) in the Vine or we're cast into the fire. So, swinging from Satan's holly tree only an option for former saints and career sinners.

Both will be cast into the fire.

Edited August 19, 2023 by phoneman-777

[Mike Mclees]

On 8/16/2023 at 11:43 PM, AnOrangeCat said:

I had a similar thought regarding my cats. The current one loves chewing on electrical cords every now and then which causes me no end of frustration and worry. Much like sin it calls for discipline, because left unchecked and again like sin, it would lead to death. I thought about that and how as the one giving the discipline there's a line to walk. Too soft and it's ineffective, too hard and it could be damaging physically and damage the relationship in the process. It really gave me some appreciation for what we put God through and the similar but higher position He has in relation to us.

I don't feel like I have a whole lot to add to OSAS so I'm not going to go deeply into that but I feel like this part of your summary is really part of the core narrative of the Bible. Humanity messed up in the garden but God still wants reconciliation and provided Jesus for that purpose. That said there's an addendum to keep in mind. God has principles and isn't ruled by His desires. In Genesis 6:6 we see God grieving over the state of humanity to the point that it it says He regretted making them. Jesus prayed that the cup would pass from Him but was obedient to God's will despite that desire. It works to our benefit that God sticks to His promises instead of throwing up His hands in frustration and leaving us to our own devices or just destroying us. But it's also important to keep in mind that many of His promises are conditional. Unless we stick to the terms laid out we may not always get what He desires to give us.

Well put. Rebellion is to fall back into darkness. We must be willing to come out of the darkness to receive His grace. 

[Vine Abider]

6 hours ago, phoneman-777 said:

The text says we either abide (which denotes PERMANENCE) in the Vine or we're cast into the fire. So, swinging from Satan's holly tree only an option for former saints and career sinners.

Both will be cast into the fire.

Which fire I think First Corinthians 3:15 addresses. The child of God themselves are saved even though their Works were burnt up. Their Works weren't good because they were not abiding in the life flow of the vine so therefore they could not produce fruit. But they themselves will be saved yet as Through Fire is the language that First Corinthians uses.

[phoneman-777]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Which fire I think First Corinthians 3:15 addresses. The child of God themselves are saved even though their Works were burnt up. Their Works weren't good because they were not abiding in the life flow of the vine so therefore they could not produce fruit. But they themselves will be saved yet as Through Fire is the language that First Corinthians uses.

Two different fires - the one burns up works, while the other burns up the withered branch.

What's your thoughts on the Unmerciful Servant who was completely forgiven of his impossible debt but wound up having that debt reinstated, due to his unwillingness to allow the grace of his master to transform him into the same likeness? 

Edited August 20, 2023 by phoneman-777

[phoneman-777]

On 8/17/2023 at 5:15 PM, AdHoc said:

If a young boy hears an accusation that his father is not his biological father, he may BELIEVE IT or he may not. Either way his biological father is fixed forever. The things of God are shown by the creature (Rom.1:20).

Added to this, we do not discuss a man with "No faith". We discuss a man who once had faith, was forgiven, was born again, and partook of the divine nature, who turns from his faith. Faith saves and is a gift of God. Faith fading does not undo the work. It awaits confirmation in the day of judgment. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says all men will be resurrected. Lack of faith does nothing. the man will be resurrected. A man cannot undo what God has done. He does not have the power.

"Assurance" verses are wrongly twisted into "insurance" verses.

The "assurance" that God will forgive repentant sinners is twisted into "insurance" for professing Christians who want to presumptuously sin - namely, fire insurance.

God's love is unconditional, but His salvation is absolutely conditional: on condition that we repent (John 3:22 KJV). 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by phoneman-777

[Vine Abider]

11 hours ago, phoneman-777 said:

"Assurance" verses are wrongly twisted into "insurance" verses.

The "assurance" that God will forgive repentant sinners is twisted into "insurance" for professing Christians who want to presumptuously sin - namely, fire insurance.

God's love is unconditional, but His salvation is absolutely conditional: on condition that we repent (John 3:22 KJV). 

 

There is something I think you are missing in @AdHoc's post and the topic of this thread - eternal LIFE.  God's salvation of eternal life to us is everlasting.  The verses that look to some to be a revocation of that eternal salvation are concerning discipline for God's children, not death.

Here's simple truth in the New Testament:  We are born of Him, of His life.  We cannot be unborn (nothing in creation suggests that possibility).  "It is of God that you are in Christ Jesus." (1 Cor 1:30) We are in Him and He is in us - one Spirit and joined to Him as per 1 Cor 6:17.  This is what happens when we are born-again, just like Jesus prayed in John 17:21. We are the Father's children, with His life seed (sperma) in us.

Can Christ die again?  If not, then neither can we!

However, there is discipline for God's children, and sometimes that is severe if needed. (but not death - God doesn't kill His children, ones with His life in them)

[DeighAnn]

 

1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.

18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

 

.
  
 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Here's simple truth in the New Testament:  We are born of Him, of His life.  We cannot be unborn (nothing in creation suggests that possibility).

But we can be judged to die AND to go to hell. 

We ENTER INTO A COVENANT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.  He has his part, we have ours. 

Just like a marriage.  You both pledge to be faithful.  Then your spouse starts having adulterous relationships one after the other.  ARE YOU STUCK FOREVER with that spouse because you said I do?  


Jesus died.  Defeated death by paying the penalty for death for those of us who enter into a covenant relationship with Him.  

His DEATH and RESURRECTION and defeating death and the ransom paid and HIM BECOMING THE LAMB of God and a HIGH PRIEST  NEVER ever changes.   HE remains faithful 

ARE we faithful or not?  THAT IS UP TO US.  IF we ABIDE, IF we obey, IF we follow, IF we repent, IF we do all the things that hearing the words made us say 'yes' to, THEN FOR SURE there remains that SACRIFICE FOR US.  Fall into 'idolatry' AND IT'S DIVORCE.
 

 

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

We are in Him and He is in us - one Spirit and joined to Him as per 1 Cor 6:17.  This is what happens when we are born-again, just like Jesus prayed in John 17:21. We are the Father's children, with His life seed (sperma) in us.

WE ARE IN HIM...and as long as we are....but WE CAN'T change EITHER.  

And all souls belong to GOD.  But no all souls will go to heaven, not all souls will find their names in the book of life.  


 

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Vine Abider said: 

Here's simple truth in the New Testament:  We are born of Him, of His life.  We cannot be unborn (nothing in creation suggests that possibility).

But we can be judged to die AND to go to hell.

This is not possible for a saved person.  Jesus taught in John 5:24 that whoever believes (present tense) HAS (possesses) eternal life.  This means from the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer possesses eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life (believers) SHALL NEVER PERISH.  Couldn't be more clear.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Those who believe are given eternal life at that moment.  Jn 5:24.  And as such, the recipient shall never perish.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 We ENTER INTO A COVENANT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.  He has his part, we have ours.

This is untrue.  And the Bible doesn't teach this.  The ONLY THING a person can do to be saved is believe in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for salvation.  And they receive eternal life.  We believe and we receive.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

1 Tim 1:16 -  But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Furthermore, the Bible says plainly that condemnation is for those who NEVER believed.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

In both verses, "have not believed" means "have NEVER believed".  That is who will be condemned.

No believer will be condemned to hell, or God is a liar.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 Just like a marriage.  You both pledge to be faithful.  Then your spouse starts having adulterous relationships one after the other.  ARE YOU STUCK FOREVER with that spouse because you said I do?

If salvation is based on a pledge to be faithful, then salvation is by works, plain and simple.  What verse teaches this?

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

  ARE we faithful or not?  THAT IS UP TO US.  IF we ABIDE, IF we obey, IF we follow, IF we repent, IF we do all the things that hearing the words made us say 'yes' to, THEN FOR SURE there remains that SACRIFICE FOR US.  Fall into 'idolatry' AND IT'S DIVORCE.

So our salvation is ultimately "up to us", huh.  Where does the Bible teach that?

You love to say "it is written".  Well, now would be a very good time to provide the verses that say what you are claiming.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

WE ARE IN HIM...and as long as we are....but WE CAN'T change EITHER.

Actually, neither will God change that, because "IT IS WRITTEN".

Eph 1-

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

All believers are God's possession AND the indwelling Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our inheritance until the "redemption" which is the resurrection.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

So, 3 verses that speak of the believer's GUARANTEE of their inheritance.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

  And all souls belong to GOD.  But no all souls will go to heaven, not all souls will find their names in the book of life.

"IT IS WRITTEN" in the Bible who will not go to heaven:  John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.  Those who NEVER believed.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

None of this relates to eternal security or loss of security.

You now have absolute proof from Scripture that one's salvation is eternally secure.  

We are to believe what "IS WRITTEN" in the Bible.  

[phoneman-777]

8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

There is something I think you are missing in @AdHoc's post and the topic of this thread - eternal LIFE.  God's salvation of eternal life to us is everlasting.  The verses that look to some to be a revocation of that eternal salvation are concerning discipline for God's children, not death.

No, friend, the reason the OSAS crowd interprets verses which prove Conditional Salvation as "diminished number of crown jewels" is because you all demanded a verdict before all evidence had a chance to speak, and then proceed to answer any OSAS challenges with stubborn platitudes derived from the same.

8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Here's simple truth in the New Testament:  We are born of Him, of His life.  We cannot be unborn (nothing in creation suggests that possibility).  "It is of God that you are in Christ Jesus." (1 Cor 1:30) We are in Him and He is in us - one Spirit and joined to Him as per 1 Cor 6:17.  This is what happens when we are born-again, just like Jesus prayed in John 17:21. We are the Father's children, with His life seed (sperma) in us.

A baby born to loving parents will die if separated from them. Nevertheless, the OSAS crowd must be willing to argue that:

>cold agape is sufficient agape yet mere lukewarm agape is spitworthy. 

>those unable to be renewed again unto repentance were never saved.

>the command to abide is unnecessary because we can't depart.

>withered and dead is alive and well? 

>a branch's burning fruit and a burning branch itself are indistinct.