Explaining the Clay in the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy

[Scott Free]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But then there are the Rockefeller and Rothschild and other such families who never appear in the press they control, but who have the financial and political power to steer even the President of the USA. The ten kings may well be such shadowy figures.

A common theme of the statue is that every transition from one empire to the next involves a foreign power usurping the previous one. The transition from the feet to toes is one of them. The U.S./Europe dynamic mirrors the Whore riding the wounded Dragon. The iron/clay mix resembling the establishing of statehood when the U.N. created the Liberal World Order as opposed to the homogeneous empire authoritarianism of the Dragon

[WilliamL]

On 9/11/2023 at 5:18 PM, AdHoc said:

You have yet to comment on your refusal of the word "abyss" being in all of the renowned bibles.

Never said it wasn't. 

On 9/11/2023 at 5:18 PM, AdHoc said:

Those were verbatim from the Bible. That makes them biblical. But since you call the translation into question - a translation that all renowned translators do not dispute - it is your duty to show your objection. Even if your argument against hundreds of capable translators was correct, you still have to deal with the implications of "his" (autos - Gk.) meaning "him alone".

Verbatim from your preferred translations, according to the older versions. Others say "of man" or "of humanity" etc. Examples can be found here:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lsb/rev/13/5/t_bibles_1180018

Again I must point out that you don't have, or haven't supplied any other biblical witness to back up your claim that the beast from the abyss will be a man and not a fallen angel. You should know better than to preach that doctrine based solely upon one disputed verse.

As to the "his number," that phrase doesn't say anything about the nature of the being having it.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Verbatim from your preferred translations, according to the older versions. Others say "of man" or "of humanity" etc. Examples can be found here:

A man chooses a translation based on a number of factors. The King James I choose is called a Bible. I quoted it verbatim. I can expect another student to honor that as "Biblical". To say that it, and nearly all the other translations, are not Bibles because an indefinite article is inserted by all the most renowned translators is a strange tactic.

You could have shown your superiority as a translator without denying the King James to be a Bible.

Just for the record, I also took the following into account when deciding that the Beast is a man,

- He was one of five kings, the sixth of which was reigning at John's time. Rome reigned then
- John would life a full life and see seven such kings - all men
- John saw kings - male
- Eight is the number of resurrection and the king who "was" - "will be"
- This king would need to be resurrected. He comes from the "bottomless pit"
- Daniel said that this king would be a Prince of the people who destroyed the Temple. If men destroyed the sanctuary, by the law of kinds, the Prince must be a man
- The "sea" in parable is the Nations - men of one blood (Act.17:26).
- His number is the number of a MAN (the matter under dispute)
- His Name amounts to a number 666. The only Roman king this fits is Nero Caesar, a man
- He must be a MAN for he died. Angels cannot die (Lk.20:35-36)
- The Beast is called “the MAN of sin”

Greek has no indefinite article. An article is added by almost ALL translators. Their educated opinion, plus peer pressure not to publish something stupid, no doubt led to their decision. I am bound by weight of evidence. I have yet to hear one bit of evidence that the Beast is an angel.

[Revelation Man]

On 9/11/2023 at 5:14 PM, WilliamL said:

For the part in red, the addition of the word "a" is based upon the opinion of the translators, since there's no indefinite article in Greek.

Leaving out the "a," a perfectly acceptable alternative translation, makes the meaning quite different. 

One cannot justifiably claim the doctrine you and others do based upon a single questionable text. Two solid textual witnesses minimum are needed.

True, I think God is telling us something significant and we miss it.

All the Other Beasts were Nations/Powers that arose as conglomerate kingdoms, meanwhile I think the biggest clue God can give us is telling us the Last Beast Kingdom will be ONE MAN, thus its the number of man "6" and then by giving us a 666 clue, God placing added emphasis on it, and we need to understand its really a ONE MAN show.

[Revelation Man]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:40 AM, Scott Free said:

The E.U. can not be the Ten Horns. They are helpless compared to Russia, China and India and can not muster an army capable of global intimidation of all nation. Google: PwrIndx

And 1oo years ago today if anyone had stated Israel will be a nation again in 25 years people would have not believed it. So, why does God entice Russia, Iran and Turkey to attack Israel? (God places a hook in Gog's mouth). In order to clear a path for the Anti-Christ to become the strongman in the Region, plus them attacking and this Ukraine War will make the E.U. put forth and Army. Why? Because the United States is about to go into a financial depression FAR WORSE than 1929, do kid yourself, debtor nations always fail. So, the E.U. will not be able to depend on us or "NATO" ant longer, thus they will build up an Army and God will destroy the Russian, Turkish and Iranian Armies Himself on the holy mount very soon. Who does China sell all of their goods to? The USA mostly, so when we go BUST they will go BUST. 

Lastly, the UNITED STATES will not even be around (basically) by the time the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering in the middle of the week he does so when the Rev. 8 Asteroid hits (Apophis) and the 1/3 of the Trees that catch fire is not really 1/3 its pointing us to a destination, the New World has 1/3 of the worlds Landmass, look kt up, I did, I had this epiphany and said to myswlf Naaa that can't be, but it is 1/3, and alas I checked the Pacific Ocean and its 1/3 of all the water on the face of the earth. So, the New World will burn, not the Old World where Jesus will rule from because God understands ruling from a non burnt world is what Jesus needs to do. Its common sense, why would God burn the Old World where Jesus is going to rule at for 1000 years? So, the USA will be minus us Christians for the first 3.5 years of the 70th week, can you imagine what the USA will be like with Libs and Tuti-Fruities running the nation? Then we will be burned so bad we will not be a nation any more, basically we will be ruins, so its not going to be hard for this Anti-Christ to rule Europe and the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR) he does not rule the WHOLE WORLD, he rules the whole earth being spoken about in the 7 Head 10 Horn region The E.U. & the MSR.  

So, the E.U. has already happened, they will soon build up a standing Army. You are trying to look at the here and now, and not the Prophecy. The Prophesy is of God, we need to BELIEVE God, not our own eyes/ 

On 9/12/2023 at 9:40 AM, Scott Free said:

"Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014 shattered the long-held assumption that the European territorial status quo would not be upset via the use of military force. Yet, far from bringing Europe together, Russia's assertiveness only further deepened Europeans' profound divergences of threat perceptions, with growing disagreements among Europeans about how to prioritize Russia versus other challenges." Illusions of Autonomy: Why Europe Cannot Provide for Its Security If the United States Pulls Back - MIT

Gog and Magog is coming soon. 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:58 AM, AdHoc said:

After an unspecified time, God, who cannot look at disorder for a long time, restored the earth in six 24-hour days.

The Universe IMHO, is 13.7 billion years old and YOWM means Period of Time. The first YOWM (not an earth day) lasted 9.2 billion years. Basically Satan stole Adam's Birthright of Dominion over this earth 6000 or so years ago. 

On 9/12/2023 at 7:58 AM, AdHoc said:

1. He was one of five kings, the sixth of which was reigning at John's time. Rome reigned then

When John speaks of these 7 Mountains of Powers that arose he also cites 7 Kings who will fall, because no power but God will rule in the end. So, since 5 Kingdoms had fallen  they all had a king at the helm when the fell (of course) and likewise Rome would eventually fall even though they were still a Beast at that time, that king (Constantine) could have been the one who so the Cross in the sky and started worshiping Jesus. Matters not really, they eventually fell. So the clue in thee Rev. 17 passages point to Mountains who arose to power and then single kings at the helm when they fell. They OVERALL CLUE here is God is sowing is all the Beasts who AROSE & FELL all had many kings in between, but the last Beast Head will both Arise and Fall unlike any of the other 6 kingdoms. 

On 9/12/2023 at 7:58 AM, AdHoc said:

2. John would life a full life and see seven such kings - all Romans

These Beast Heads were not all from Rome. They were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome AND the coming Anti-Christ.

I do not follow this at all tbh. Remember these are Beasts who BEASTED over Israel. The bible is not about Rome per se but Israel and their plight. 

 

I have heard this stuff and read it countless times, long ago, and discounted it.

[Scott Free]

9 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

So, the E.U. has already happened

The E.U. does not have the population or resources to enforce a new global order against Russia, China and India's interest.

[Revelation Man]

25 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

The E.U. does not have the population or resources to enforce a new global order against Russia, China and India's interest.

If you had read what I posted you would not have made this reply. The reply shows you could not have read what I stated.

[Dennis1209]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:28 PM, Revelation Man said:

Let's delve into the statue of Daniel chapter 2 and see if we can come to an understanding of who the last kingdom represents.

The Iron and Clay, who is this in prophecy? 

The Dream

Dan. 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands(Jesus), which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

The Interpretation

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold(Babylon/Nebuchadnezzar was the Gold portion of the Statue). 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee(Persia/Silver part of the Statue), and another third kingdom of brass(Alexander the Great and Greece), which shall bear rule over all the earth(NOTE: All the earth is speaking about only the land being spoken about, the Mediterranean Sea Region, hence the Beasts all arose out of the great [Mediterranean] Sea).

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron(Rome): forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

So, who is the "10" Iron & the Clay kings whom the end time beast/little horn arises from? That is the great debate isn't it? We have those whom says its a worldwide conglomeration of 10 regions, we have those who insist it is an end time Muslim leader because of the Assyrian angle we are given in Isaiah chapter 10. We have those who insist he must come from Syria because they are the ones Rome got to destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD thus the Dan. 9:27 prophecy can only be about them. So, lets look deeper into this original prophecy about the Statue. 

This image is good enough, however verse 42 cites only the toes as both iron & clay, so we get the Gold = Babylon, the Silver = Persia, the Brass = Greece, the Iron = Rome and the Iron & Clay = the 10 Toes or End Time Horns/Kings. So who do these 10 represent? That is the 64,000 dollar question. 

Well, it is "Iron" in the description right? So, the Iron Beast and the Iron and Clay has to be the same Beast [territory], except the Clay means they are Divided !! As we see know, the E.U. are many factions trying to be one, whilst Rome was one faction ruling over many nations. In the old days Rome made a decree and everyone had better heed that decree, today, the E.U. tries to decree something and other "nations" inside the E.U. will give push back, like Hungary and Poland not accepting illegal aliens etc. etc. or England voting to leave the E.U. So, in my opinion, the 10 simply means complete Europe Reunited, but not in the old Roman way, but instead in a political type way where they are together, but are still not a well oiled machine, they have leaks at the seams, they are Rome (Iron) but are seamed together by "Clay" not by welds or rivets that hold tightly. I think that is the image the Angels of God was trying to relay in this statue vision. The 10 toes (complete Rome/E.U. Reunited as "one") are Iron & Clay, partly strong and partly weak. 

I also think God gives us a three pronged prophecy about the coming end time Little Horn/A.C./Beast, and all three have to mesh together or it is a wrong assumption. So, let me lay those three out.

1.) Isaiah 10, this Beast/Little Horn has to be of Assyrian Blood lineage.

2.) Dan. 7:7-8, this Little Horn has to be from the Roman Empires head or territory via his "political realm".

3.) Dan 8:9, this Little Horn/A.C. must arise from one of the Four Generals empires and the end time King of the North (Dan. 11:40-43) must conquer from the Northwest corridor of this four way inter-kingdom battle. He conquers towards the south (Egypt/Ptolemy) towards the east (Turkey/Seleucus) and towards Israel, which leave him conquering from Cassander or Greece.

Putting it all together, because all three prophesies must be true, we can see that this man has to have Assyrian blood (Iraqi/Turk or Syrian) in his lineage, but he also has to be born in Greece, so his family somewhere down the road migrated to Greece. Now, being born in Greece gives this man the birthright to become the E.U. President(fulfilling Dan. 7:7-8), thus he can fulfill all three prophesies only by the scenario I laid out above. 

Thus, this end time Beast has to also have Iron in his mix, because the 10 toes have iron in the mix, meaning its the Old Rome territory reconstituted under another Beast, a man, who will never pass his kingdom on, thus he is the 7th Head of Rev. 13. 

In the end, these two maps below establish why the Iron moniker is used for the 10 toes.

Old Rome circa 117 AD.

The current European Union and the Nations in treaty with her in the European Neighborhood Policy(ENP) Agreements. 

There is no difference once the Little Horn conquers Israel and the MANY Countries in Dan. 11:40-43. The only difference is in the way these kingdoms were put together. One Conquered all the nations, pretty much and ruled in such a manner, and the other is a defacto political organization of a group of nations being held together by shoe polish. 

Omitting any details and my thoughts, I think this is a crucial verse to understanding the iron mixed with the miry clay.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The questions are:

·         Who are They?

·         In what sense is “seed of men” used?

Could it have a relationship with the very first prophecy in the Bible?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

[Scott Free]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

If you had read what I posted you would not have made this reply. The reply shows you could not have read what I stated.

Friendly advice I learned: Most people will not read past three sentences. Someone who really comprehends their subject matter should be able to summarize their thoughts into a few sentences. Do not put all your cards on the table at once, play them.