Explaining the Clay in the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy

luigi · September 14, 2023

Personally, I see the transition from head of gold, down to breast of silver, and so on down to lesser noble metals, indicative of a nation who starts out with the most noble policies, whose policies as the generations continue with lesser noble policies, until it ends up in its final phase with mixed policies that cannot stand.

Revelation Man · September 14, 2023

1 hour ago, Scott Free said:

Friendly advice I learned: Most people will not read past three sentences. Someone who really comprehends their subject matter should be able to summarize their thoughts into a few sentences. Do not put all your cards on the table at once, play them.

My respect to others is if I do not read in full I will not reply. God therefore gave Us a huge bible because???????????????

I do well at putting my thoughts in an orderly fashion which I think is minimal to give an understanding from the Lord. On blogs/posted thread I try to summarize a bit neater, but on a reply it goes where it goes, after all people are asking questions. Its OK not to read, but why reply to that which you don't read, I don't get it tbh. It is what it is.

Its a good thing Paul's letters were not three sentences (SMILE)

Scott Free · September 14, 2023

28 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

My respect to others is if I do not read in full I will not reply. God therefore gave Us a huge bible because???????????????

I do well at putting my thoughts in an orderly fashion which I think is minimal to give an understanding from the Lord. On blogs/posted thread I try to summarize a bit neater, but on a reply it goes where it goes, after all people are asking questions. Its OK not to read, but why reply to that which you don't read, I don't get it tbh. It is what it is.

Its a good thing Paul's letters were not three sentences (SMILE)

I am open to instruction. Reiterate for me what I am missing from your presentation concerning the view of E.U.'s lack of manpower and natural resources. I can only see the potential of an army capable of a weak temporary defense against an Asian onslaught. Assuming the collapse of the U.S.A..

Edited September 14, 2023 by Scott Free

Revelation Man · September 14, 2023

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Omitting any details and my thoughts, I think this is a crucial verse to understanding the iron mixed with the miry clay.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The questions are:

· Who are They?

· In what sense is “seed of men” used?

Could it have a relationship with the very first prophecy in the Bible?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I kind of answered this question on page 1 and I probably touched on it a wee but in the OP, but since his question and yours was so similar I will post that "interaction" here in {{{ }}} for the Question and in Bold slant for the Answer.

Then I will touch on it a wee bit more.

=====================

{{{ On 9/10/2023 at 3:14 PM, WilliamL said:

Most folks just gloss over this part: "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another...

Who are the "they?" The seed of men is clear enough: men were formed from the earth/clay. "They" were not of the earth; which is why their mingling with mankind's seed/bloodline eventually fails, just as it did in the past.

Only one possible answer, IMHO. The Genesis 6 answer. }}}

MY ANSWER TO HIM BELOW

Yea, I used to go down that road for about 5 or 10 years. Then it was clear unto me (at least it WAS 6 or 7 years ago) this verse actually meant Royal Marriage trying to revive the kingdom (might yet mean that), but now I am more akin to see this "SEED of men" as different factions trying to be one, like the English & the French & the Spaniards & the Germans & the Slavs etc. etc. etc. all trying to combine different SEED of men into one nation, thus the Clay can't "seam these MANY SEEDS together". So, its either, IMHO, Royal Marriage (which I am very doubtful on now) or it is showing why these 10 Kings (Complete Europe) are being held together by mere "Shoe Polish", they are a bunch of factions of MANY SEEDS trying to be one nation.

===========================

I think he was referring more to the Gen. 6 mixing between Demons and Humans, but God imprisoned those Demons who did that, then flooded the world to destroy that DNA offshoot. So, I do not think its referring to Gen. 6, that why I answered in the manner I did above.

As per Gen. 3:15 I think that was referring unto Jesus' death on the cross, Satan bruised his heel, but Jesus delivered the head wound to Satan. THY Seed was Wicked Mankind her Seed was Jesus as Gal 3:16 says.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So, I think Gen. 3:15 is referring unto a Spiritual battle between Jesus and Satan, with Jesus being the Seed of the Woman (Israel) and the Wicked being the seed of Satan. That is done without an in-depth study on that passage, so I could be mistaken, I really never studied Gen. 3:15 as much as I should. Most say its the first Prophecy in the bible.

Scott Free · September 14, 2023

9 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Most folks just gloss over this part: "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another..

Another interpretation of the iron/clay mix is the defeat of empire or "Reich" formation and the creation of independent states called the Liberal Word Order.

Dennis1209 · September 14, 2023

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I kind of answered this question on page 1 and I probably touched on it a wee but in the OP, but since his question and yours was so similar I will post that "interaction" here in {{{ }}} for the Question and in Bold slant for the Answer.

Then I will touch on it a wee bit more.

=====================

{{{ On 9/10/2023 at 3:14 PM, WilliamL said:

Most folks just gloss over this part: "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another...

Who are the "they?" The seed of men is clear enough: men were formed from the earth/clay. "They" were not of the earth; which is why their mingling with mankind's seed/bloodline eventually fails, just as it did in the past.

Only one possible answer, IMHO. The Genesis 6 answer. }}}

MY ANSWER TO HIM BELOW

Yea, I used to go down that road for about 5 or 10 years. Then it was clear unto me (at least it WAS 6 or 7 years ago) this verse actually meant Royal Marriage trying to revive the kingdom (might yet mean that), but now I am more akin to see this "SEED of men" as different factions trying to be one, like the English & the French & the Spaniards & the Germans & the Slavs etc. etc. etc. all trying to combine different SEED of men into one nation, thus the Clay can't "seam these MANY SEEDS together". So, its either, IMHO, Royal Marriage (which I am very doubtful on now) or it is showing why these 10 Kings (Complete Europe) are being held together by mere "Shoe Polish", they are a bunch of factions of MANY SEEDS trying to be one nation.

===========================

I think he was referring more to the Gen. 6 mixing between Demons and Humans, but God imprisoned those Demons who did that, then flooded the world to destroy that DNA offshoot. So, I do not think its referring to Gen. 6, that why I answered in the manner I did above.

As per Gen. 3:15 I think that was referring unto Jesus' death on the cross, Satan bruised his heel, but Jesus delivered the head wound to Satan. THY Seed was Wicked Mankind her Seed was Jesus as Gal 3:16 says.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So, I think Gen. 3:15 is referring unto a Spiritual battle between Jesus and Satan, with Jesus being the Seed of the Woman (Israel) and the Wicked being the seed of Satan. That is done without an in-depth study on that passage, so I could be mistaken, I really never studied Gen. 3:15 as much as I should. Most say its the first Prophecy in the bible.

I apologize for not reading the entire thread; I did not have the time when I posted. I am not claiming my thoughts are correct, and my perspective has changed a few times. One thing is for certain, we are witnessing the stage setting and alignments of biblical prophecy.

Most would agree that the supernatural will become the new normal in the Tribulation. Calling fire down from heaven, the demon locusts, the Two Witnesses, continuing disasters, flying angels, etc.

The European population is not keeping up with their national identities by replacing themselves, and Muslims are invading Europe by groves, displacing the native Europeans. As a general rule, Muslims do not cleave to sovereign nations, freedom, or assimilate into the culture they migrate to, and this is a consideration. The more I have studied these passages and certain word meanings, the more I lean toward a supernatural mingling of men and spirits. I take Gen. 3:15 and Gen. 6:1-4 literally as commingling.

I have no doubt that DNA tampering is now occurring, mixing different seeds. Our government admitted it when it announced the effort to create Super Soldiers and the hazards – conditions of outer space astronauts endure. This mixing of seeds has happened at least twice in antiquity, probably to contaminate the bloodline of the coming Messiah and alter what the Lord created after His own image. I suspect one way or another, there will be another incursion.

Seed ~ 10240 זְרַע (z^erǎʿ): n.[masc.]; ≡ DBLHebr 2445, 2446 Str 2234; TWOT 2715—LN 10.29 descendant, offspring, progeny, formally, זְרַע אֲנָשָׁא (z^erǎʿ ʾ^ǎnā·šā(ʾ)), the seed of a person (Da 2:43+)^{^[1]}

Cleave ~ depending on the translation; combine; mixing; mix; cement.

The word 'cleave' used in this passage is the same word used in Genesis, where the word 'marriage' is used. There is a mingling of two different seeds but no marriage, which they could be less than human. The wording and words underlined above are strange. As Dr. Michael S. Heiser says, "if it's strange, it's important."

³⁹And he shall do thus in the strong places of refuge with a strange god, and shall increase his glory: and he shall subject many to them, and shall distribute the land in gifts. ^{^[2]}

³⁹And he schal do that he make strong Moosym, with the alien god which he knew. And he schal multiplie glorie, and schal ȝyue power to hem in many thingis, and schal departe the lond at his wille.^{^[3]}

The Wycliffe Bible translates strange god as alien god. Everything is coming full circle, and as Solomon said: Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

I am in good company with my thoughts: Julius Africanus, Dr. Michael Heiser, Dr. Chuck Missler, L.A. Marzulli, Dave Hamp, and many more.

If the Tribulation is as close as I suspect, I believe the half-dark glass will clear up soon.

^{^[1]} Swanson, James. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Aramaic (Old Testament) 1997: n. pag. Print.

^{^[2]} Brenton, Lancelot Charles Lee. The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament: English Translation. London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1870. Print.

^{^[3]} Wycliffe, John. The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments, with the Apocryphal Books: Later Version. Ed. Josiah Forshall and Frederic Madden. I–IV. Oxford: Oxford, at the University Press, 1850. Print.

Revelation Man · September 14, 2023

10 hours ago, Scott Free said:

I am open to instruction. Reiterate for me what I am missing from your presentation concerning the view of E.U.'s lack of manpower and natural resources. I can only see the potential of an army capable of a weak temporary defense against an Asian onslaught. Assuming the collapse of the U.S.A..

Well, I think I have already explained it, we must look at Prophecy and figure out what God means not what we can see coming to pass. Like I stated, anyone in the 1920's saying that Israel will be back in their homeland and that they must eventually build a temple, most people would have doubted this, many even in the church would have scoffed saying this has to be metaphorical in nature, but Gods Holy word told us Israel's rebirth would indeed happen in ONE DAY. He told us in Ezekiel He would revive those dead bones, so Prophecy guys in the know, KNEW all this was going to come to pass, in spite of what they could see in the natural world. Likewise, I understand Prophecy, I understand the European Union is the 10 (meaning Completion not 10) kings spoken of. I understand like the other 6 the Anti-Christ will be Gentile King. I understand the False Prophet has to be a Jewish High Priest in league with this Little Horn because of studying Jason under Antiochus, a Jewish High priest who bribed Antiochus in order to be named the High Priest, having his Pious High Priest brother Onias III killed. Jason's real name was Yeshua, he welcomed Antiochus into the temple to make a sacrifice unto Zeus on the Altar of God. He MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenized, thereby those Jews opposed to him started a war (Maccabean Wars) and defeated the Greeks or pushed them out of Israel. Meanwhile Antiochus caught a disease and died on the Eastern front (Killed WITHOUT HANDS) and thus died in a similar manner that the A.C. will die in, Without Hands.

So, it all adds up, the A.C. has to be born in Greece (Dan. 8:9 mandates this) he will have Assyrian blood (Isaiah chapter 10) and he must come to political prominence via the E.U. (Dan. 7:7-8).

What the E.U. now has or doesn't have is not relevant, IF we understand he never conquers the WHOLE WORLD and IMHO, this is what is blocking you from seeing the E.U. as this Beast, you probably have been taught that he will rule the WHOLE WORLD, but that just is not the case, I can explain with scriptures why that is a fallacy, the mere mention of the 7 Heads and 10 Horns prove this, that all of these Beasts came out of the [Mediterranean] Sea. None of the other 6 was a WORD WIDE Kingdom although both Babylon and Greece were called a world wide kingdom in Dan. 2, it meant the WHOLE EARTH being spoken about, and that was just Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region in each case.

So, it will be easy for the E.U. to rule the E.U. area right? (of course) Then after Russia, Turkey and Iran's armies are destroyed, it will then be easy for them to Conquer Israel and THE MANY (Everyone around them and all of North Africa). China will not be a factor. The New World, IMHO, is burned to a crisp. His pathway will be made straight.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Revelation Man

WilliamL · September 14, 2023

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You could have shown your superiority as a translator without denying the King James to be a Bible.

False accusation. Another one, along with the 'abyss denial' accusation.

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- He was one of five kings, the sixth of which was reigning at John's time. Rome reigned then
- John would life a full life and see seven such kings - all men
- John saw kings - male
- Eight is the number of resurrection and the king who "was" - "will be"
- This king would need to be resurrected. He comes from the "bottomless pit"

The Beast is the eighth king, the only one from the Abyss. Rev. 11:7; 17:8 Fallen angels don't get resurrected, because they can never die. The ones at the time of the Flood were sealed in the Abyss, until it will be unlocked at the 5th Trumpet.

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- Daniel said that this king would be a Prince of the people who destroyed the Temple.

Daniel never mentioned the Beast at all. You've just added your presumption to his words.

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- He must be a MAN for he died. Angels cannot die (Lk.20:35-36)
- The Beast is called “the MAN of sin”

Nowhere is it written that the Beast from the Abyss ever died. Again, your presumption. The Man of Sin/Son of Perdition is not the Beast: the former is pre-Parousia, the latter is post-Parousia.

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I have yet to hear one bit of evidence that the Beast is an angel.

I have yet to hear one bit of evidence that a man can have seven heads!

Why the Beast cannot be a man:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2778-the-beast-is-not-a-seven-headed-man-part-1/

Why the Beast is a fallen angel from the Abyss, cast there at the time of the Flood:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2780-the-beast-part-3-who-is-the-beast/

Dennis1209 · September 14, 2023

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well, I think I have already explained it, we must look at Prophecy and figure out what God means not what we can see coming to pass. Like I stated, anyone in the 1920's saying Israel will be back in their homeland and the must eventually build a temple, most people would have doubted this, many even in the church would have scoffed saying this has to be metaphorical in nature, but Gods Holy word told us Israel's rebirth one happen in ONE DAY. He told us in Ezekiel He would revive those dead bones, so Prophecy guys in the know, KNEW all this was going to come to pass, in spite of what they could see in the natural world. Likewise, I understand Prophecy, I understand the European Union is the 10 (meaning Complete not 10) kings spoken of. I understand like the other 6 the Anti-Christ will be Gentile King. I understand the False Prophet has to be a Jewish High Priest in league with this Little Horn because of studying Jason under Antiochus, a Jewish High priest who bribed Antiochus in order to be named the High Priest, having his Pious High Priest brother Onias III killed. Jason's real name was Yeshua, he welcomed Antiochus into the temple to make a sacrifice unto Zeus on the Altar of God. He MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenized, thereby those Jews opposed to him started a war (Maccabean Wars) and defeated the Greeks or pushed them put of Israel. Meanwhile Antiochus caught a diseases and died on the Eastern front (Killed WITHOUT HANDS) and thus died in a similar manner the A.C. will die in, Without Hands.

So, it all adds up, the A.C. has t be born in Greece (Dan. 8:9 mandates this) he will have Assyrian blood (Isaiah chapter 10) and he must come to political prominence via the E.U. (Dan. 7:7-8).

What the E.U. now has or doesn't have is not relevant, IF we understand he never conquers the WHOLEV WORLD an IMHO, this is what is blocking you from seeing the E.U. as this Beast, you probably have been taught that he will rule the WHOLE WORLD, but that just is not the case, I cn explain with scriptures why that is a fallacy, the mere mention of the 7 Heads and 10 Horns prove this, that all came out of the [Mediterranean] Sea. None of the other 6 was a WORD WIDE Kingdom although both Babylon and Greece was called a world wide kingdom, it meant the WHOLE EARTH being spoken about, and that was just Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region in each case.

So, it will be easy for the E.U. to rule the E.U. area right? (of course) Then after Russia, Turkey and Iran's armies are destroyed, it will then be easy for them to Conquer Israel and THE MANY (Everyone around them and all of North Africa). China will not be a factor. The New World, IMHO, is burned to a crisp. His patway will be made straight.

Here are a few thoughts I considered related to these end-time prophecies. When the Bible states the “whole world,” is it restricted to the known world of the author and population of the time? Or is it the entire planet?

The revelation of Jesus Christ, Israel in general, and Jerusalem in particular are the main focus of the Bible and book of Revelation. No country, continent, or superpower on this side of the hemisphere is ever mentioned or implied. It is as though this side of the hemisphere is impotent or extinct.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

A third of all trees and all green grass burned up sounds like a localized geographic extinction event to me (that is, some severe widespread heat). There is zero indication the above occurs in the Middle East or Europe in the Bible. Antichrist's business and the Middle East continue without a hiccup, setback, or mention.

Jesus is the only One worthy to open the scrolls and commence these judgments, and this scorching of the planet's surface happens somewhere unidentified. It is but one of a series of judgments and punishments.

Revelation 16:21 (KJV) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

These hail stones are about 66.6 pounds each (an interesting number).

In short, scientific theory bears the following out. A severe coronal mass ejection (CME) striking the cold upper atmosphere will produce ice blocks of up to 100 pounds. The CME could hit the earth's surface as high as 6,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

What about mingled with blood? What happens when one of these 67-pound hail stones hits animals and humans (splat-gush)? How many people are in thousands of airliners at any given moment?

The silence on this side of the hemisphere is deafening. The number one question Christians always ask about biblical prophecy, “Where is America in biblical prophecy?” I believe we are seeing remedial judgment (a Nineveh moment, if you will) on America now to repent and revert to our former Christian laws, morals, and values.

It is a historical biblical principle that judgment is not far off when a nation passes abominations and lawlessness into the law of the land.

I would not be surprised if the aforementioned includes America and this side of the hemisphere. This side of the planet constitutes roughly one-third of the global land mass.

WilliamL · September 14, 2023

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I think the biggest clue God can give us is telling us the Last Beast Kingdom will be ONE MAN, thus its the number of man "6" and then by giving us a 666 clue, God placing added emphasis on it, and we need to understand its really a ONE MAN show.

I just relearned something I forgot. The literal Greek reads:

"...for it is a number of [a?] man, and his number is..."

-- not, "the number of [a?] man..." There is no "the" here before "number."

So any Bible version, such as the KJV and all those who follow it, is "adding to the Word" when they presume to add the "the."

Ah, presumptions, the bane of accurate translations.

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