Explaining the Clay in the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy

[luigi]

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No, its an Angel who comes from Heaven, just like the other Angels who brought the Trumps to pass this one blows and an Angel (Stars in Revelation are Angels) comes down to unlock the bottomless pit. The King Apollyon is living in the pit. Remember, Angel means Messenger, the "Angels" of the 7 Churches are not angels but their Preachers (Messengers of God) so the word used for Angel is not always an Angel as we know it, but a Messenger. Apollyon is the Messenger of the bottomless pit and their king, meaning he lives amongst them. He is not the Angel that has the key, if so he would have left long ago.

This has nothing to do with Apollyon, this is Satan the Red Dragon. Rev. 12's Red Dragon has 7 CROWNS meanwhile Rev. 17's Scarlet Beast has NO CROWNS. 

You keep your view, and I'll keep mine.

Satan is the destroyer!

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

You keep your view, and I'll keep mine.

Satan is the destroyer!

You are allowed to be wrong, but you are still in error. In the end I will be proven correct. It literally makes zero sense to say Satan is locked in the pit as we speak, and that is what you have to be saying if Satan is Apollyon. Try reading the old testament Jews when they speak about the Demon Abaddon/Apollyon.

[luigi]

32 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You are allowed to be wrong, but you are still in error. In the end I will be proven correct. It literally makes zero sense to say Satan is locked in the pit as we speak, and that is what you have to be saying if Satan is Apollyon. Try reading the old testament Jews when they speak about the Demon Abaddon/Apollyon.

I didn't say Satan was locked in the pit. I said Satan is the star who falls, who is given the key to the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:1-2). He, Satan/Abaddon/Apollyon, who is the angel of the bottomless pit, is the destroyer, by whom woe will come upon all inhabiters of the earth and the sea (Revelation 12:12). Satan/Abaddon/Apollyon realizing his time remaining him is short, destroys the earth and sea. 

Another correlation where Satan/Abaddon/Apollyon is the angel of the bottomless pit appears in Revelation 20:1-3, where he will be locked into for a thousand years.

Edited September 18, 2023 by luigi

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

If you do not understand these are Demons I can't help you, and you might want to leave the book of Revelation alone, its not for you. I think you know they are Demons, you are too intelligent not to understand this. Grasshoppers in the bottomless pit, really, I have never seen anyone who did not understand these were a Demon Swarm from the pit.

Of course they're demons.  You missed the point completely.  There's no mention of Apollyon coming up out of the abyss, only the locusts (demons).

[WilliamL]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

Yes, Apollyon/Abaddon which translates to the destroyer, is Satan.

It is Satan who gives the beast his power, causing the beasts ascension from the sea (Revelation 13:1-2).

Second sentence true, but it does not at all follow from the first sentence.

Apollyon/Abaddon is currently in the Abyss; Satan is not, and will not go there until after Armageddon, according to Rev. 19-20.

Satan is cast from heaven to earth first, according to Rev. 12; so he cannot be in the Abyss now.

[luigi]

25 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Second sentence true, but it does not at all follow from the first sentence.

Apollyon/Abaddon is currently in the Abyss; Satan is not, and will not go there until after Armageddon, according to Rev. 19-20.

Satan is cast from heaven to earth first, according to Rev. 12; so he cannot be in the Abyss now.

No one is currently in the bottomless pit.

The star who falls to the earth, to whom is given the key to open the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:1-2), is Abaddon/Apollyon, the angel of the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11), which translates to "the destroyer". 

We have another description to the destroyer in Revelation 12:12 where when Satan (the falling star in Revelation 9:1) is cast to the earth, Woe is pronounced to both inhabiters of the earth and sea.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

[luigi]

I will now go off topic, but it is in order to understand what it is that the key to the bottomless pit unlocks.

If we know the bottomless pit from which the beast will ascend is another description for the sea from which the beast will ascend; we see this ascension, in association with power the dragon gives to the beast (Revelation 13:2).

So what is the power that causes the beasts rise from the sea? When we look at the circumstances occurring before the opening of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, we see 1/3 of earths environmental resources having been destroyed due to the love mankind has for the things his hands produce (Revelation 9:20), which things today are produced primarily through fossil fuel burning industries. One third of earths resources destroyed will therefore usher in the beginning of sorrows, written in the Olivet discourse, in which famines, pestilences, and wars, occur in greater number.

The opening of the bottomless pit in which the dragon Satan/Abaddon/Apollyon, the destroyer, provides the beast, causing its ascension from the bottomless pit/ the sea, is therefore the new source of power that all of mankind will be in adoration of (Revelation 13:4 & 8). It is fusion energy, the same energy source as our sun and stars, that the falling star Abaddon/Apollyon/Satan will be provided the key to access, which he will provide to the beast, that will bring about the new world order of the beast. Deuterium, which are hydrogen isotopes, that the seas of the world have a virtual unlimited quantity of (a bottomless pit), will provide the world with an unlimited amount of energy to industry to produce all the idols mankind is so in love with today. 

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by luigi

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Of course they're demons.  You missed the point completely.  There's no mention of Apollyon coming up out of the abyss, only the locusts (demons).

Gotcha, I can accept that challenge, of course we disagree, the reason is Satan always appoints a Demon over a city/state/nation or region. He's named the Destroyer by Israel for a reason, just like Satan means the accuser or adversary. 

But what you insinuate is Apollyon is the head or king over those Demons, who are released, but he decides to stay put, come on, he's the leader/king of these demons, that means as a Demon he is also released from the pit. 

In Woe #2 people get that confused the opposite way, they see them as Demons also, but the 200 million are not Chinese men, nor Demons, the are Angelic beings, we know this via vs. 20 which tells us these are plagues from God who kill those who have taken the Mark of the Beast, see how it flows? The Demons are released and torture men, IMHO, they use tricks, curses, evil tactics etc. etc. to see whom these people who have not repented NOR taken the Mark of the Beast will choose, God or Satan, THEN God orders the 200 Million Angels (which I think just means ALL OF HEAVEN its the ole number 10 again which means completion) to kill 1/3 of all men who have taken the Mark of the Beast.

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

So, God will nor allow these men to be killed by Woe #1 He demands they choose a side, like Moses said, choose ye this day whom ye will serve. Once they have chosen a side after 5 months God starts killing 1/3 of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast, we know this because God is not killing men who repented at random, Satan and the Anti-Christ will do that, but not in the first 5 months, this is another reason my point about the 5th Seal Martyrs being FUTURE PROPHETIC UTTERANCES has Cred. 

You know the saying brother: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence. Likewise just because something is not expressly stated doesn't mean it is not insinuated, the king of the Demons will lead them out, its inferred, they all leave, he's their leader. 

Try to see this, its a very important concept, we get three Beast's (not including the False Prophet Beast over Religion) and each are given a descriptor in the mention of the 7 Heads and 10 Horns and that is done with CROWNS.

(Red Dragon) The Rev. 12 Beast is a Red Dragon, who has a crown over every kingdom on this earth, but only the 7 Heads over Israel down through the Ages is being spoken about here, so these 7 Heads are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the soon to come Anti-Christ who only rules for 42 months. Thus this is Satan who has a CROWN over all 7 Heads. 

(Anti-Christ) We now move on to the Rev. 13 Beast who is one of the 7 Heads and who has his CROWNS on the 10 (Complete Europe Reunited) horns/kings. This designates him as being the end time Little Horn/A.C. Beast who is seen in Dan. 11:40-43 conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

(Scarlet Colored Beast) By reading Rev. 17 we can clearly see this is not Satan, nor can it be a Man, the clues abound, firstly, he is given the name Scarlet Beast not the Red Dragon, he is also not shown to have any CROWNS in the verse that describes him (SEE BELOW). 

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (But alas, NO CROWNS)

Then in Revelation 17:8 we are told the Beast you saw (Scarlet Colored Beast) was.......AND IS NOT.......and shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit, so it has to be Apollyon the King of the pit, it can be no one else. So, why does verse 8 end with he WAS............IS NOT...........YET IS? Because he was over the first 6 Beasts and is now in the bottomless pit, BUT..........he will be loosed or freed at the first woe in order to come against Israel one last time. 

Now I can interpret this passage much easier once we understand who it is.

Rev. 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains(7 Powers that be, mountains = Gov. powers), on which the woman sitteth(The Harlot Woman = ALL False Religion of ALL TIME, as I have shown elsewhere and can explain if needed).

{{{ So, we get the Powers that ARISE ABOVE and how those same Powers FALL BELOW, and of course when a powerful entity falls it can only have one king at the helm as it goes away as a Beast Power. Thus the prose gives us a dichotomy of the Rise and Fall of these 7 Powers but why? Because God is TRYING to show us something about the 7th (Last) Beast that is UNLIKE the other 6 Beasts, it will be a ONE MAN that both Arises & Falls as the Beast, and that is why both Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 show a man being cast into hell, and he is called The Beast himself alone. }}}

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen(Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece had FALLEN), and one is(Rome, who eventually had ONE KING at the helm who would also fall), and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space(The Anti-Christ will come but rule only for 42 months, thus he will be the ONLY KING BEAST who both Arises and Falls as the Beast, all of the others had multiple kings).

{{{ Now we get the RIDDLE that solves the who passage below }}} 

11 And the beast that was(Apollyon was over the 5 that fell and Rome), and is not(He was cast into the Bottomless Pit for the duration of the Church Age), even he is the eighth(Why? There is only 7 Heads, well because he is the King of the Bottomless Pit so he's the 8th King in this Rev. 17 riddle !! Is that not true?), and is of the seven(So, only a Demon can be OF THE SEVEN, and an 8th, THINK IT THROUGH, and its not the Red Dragon who has CROWNS on the 7), and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings(Complete E.U. United), which have received no kingdom as yet(no Beast Kingdom as yet); but receive power as kings one hour with the beast(or 42 months, notice they GIVE their power unto the Beast, thus its an Election, and the European Union does this via a Parliament, SEE BELOW)  13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

So, in Rev. 11, its speaking about the Rev. 17 Scarlet Colored Beast that arises out of the Bottomless Pit. And the only named Demon is Apollyon in Rev. 9

Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

So, you think just a no named Demon is being described here? It is the Scarlet Colored Beast and he the King of the bottomless pit for a reason, he has been placed in the pit for a reason, he WAS of the 7 meaning of the 6 Before he was placed in the pit, meaning he had to be placed there after Rome, and of course he is there now, and will be released at the first woe. 

Everything adds up to this being Apollyon, nothings adds up to it being Satan. 

God Bless

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, luigi said:

I didn't say Satan was locked in the pit. I said Satan is the star who falls, who is given the key to the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:1-2). He, Satan/Abaddon/Apollyon, who is the angel of the bottomless pit, is the destroyer, by whom woe will come upon all inhabiters of the earth and the sea (Revelation 12:12).

God does not get Demons to bring forth any plagues, is all done via Angelic Beings, they blow the 7 Trumps and pour out the 7 Vials, this is why the 7 Seals are not a part of God's Wrath/Judgments. But lets say your thesis was a calculated possibility, the DESCRIPTORS all prove this can not be a possibility, this is how I come to my conclusions, I do not just guess wildly brother.

The Rev. 12 Red Dragon is NOT the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast why would God confuse us? Satan does that, not God. We also see the Rev. 17 Beast has NO CROWNS on or over the 7 Heads for a reason. He is not over any of this Earth's at all. We also see he Arises from the Bottomless Pit, he doesn't OPEN the Pit and then Arise, he's locked in the pit, to try and say Satan goes to the pit to release them then ARISES from the pit is just very, very bad Eschatology brother, why then does Revelation 17 say that HE WAS.......IS NOT......YET IS? Satan is never bound in the Bottomless Pit, the Scarlet Beast is !! Thus he WAS (a Beast Power over the 6) he now IS NOT (he's in the pit) and at the very end he will again be a Beast Power over the Anti-Christ. You can't have it both ways, this Scarlet Colored Beast is not Satan the Red Dragon. 

So, you have this in your mind brother, and believe me, I have had things in my mind that become mental blockers also, as a matter of fact I never saw THE CROWNS until about 7 or 8 years ago. And I never could understand why this Rev. 17 Beast was called Scarlet and the Rev. 12 Beast was the Red Dragon. Now I know.

7 hours ago, luigi said:

Another correlation where Satan/Abaddon/Apollyon is the angel of the bottomless pit appears in Revelation 20:1-3, where he will be locked into for a thousand years.

Its JUST THE OPPISITE in reality, those verses help prove your thesis is incorrect in that the angel that comes down now with the key, is not Satan, see my point? 

Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.(This is the SAME Angel in Rev. 9)

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

There is zero correlation with Rev. 9, this proves your point about the Star or Angel in Rev. 9 was a bad supposition, it proves that Angel is of God !! You helped me learn another talking point that helps me prove my understanding on this, it proves God does not designate his power unto Demons for chores per se.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Revelation Man

[luigi]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

God does not get Demons to bring forth any plagues, is all done via Angelic Beings, they blow the 7 Trumps and pour out the 7 Vials, this is why the 7 Seals are not a part of God's Wrath/Judgments. But lets say your thesis was a calculated possibility, the DESCRIPTORS all prove this can not be a possibility, this is how I come to my conclusions, I do not just guess wildly brother.

 

The demons in Revelation 9:20 are the things mankind makes with their hands which he worships. These things bring about the seven plagues in Revelation 8 and 9.

Put one and one together, and we see that the things mankind makes with his hands today are made through fossil fuel burning industries, that bring about the first four plagues in Revelation 8. The last three plagues in Revelation 9, are created by the power the destroyer provides the beast.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: