Are you excited about the rapture?

[Rick-Parker]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:03 PM, Slibhin said:

Yes

Thank you.

[Scott Free]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:20 PM, SpiritSong said:

As we know the end is very near, what are your feelings about the rapture? Are you excited? Are you afraid? Do you feel prepared? 

I used to be afraid because of the scary time surrounding the event, and also, I was afraid of God, that I wasn't worthy of being with Him. But praise God for his grace! It's not by works but by faith that we are His!

Thoughts?

I think about the rapture everyday. Seeing Jesus for who He is. Daydreams of flying over mountains, down to lush valleys full of birds. Gliding through forest unhindered. Onto grassy hills of a prairie where bones of a great city rest underneath. There I meet perfect friends of everlasting kindness together singing to God in abundant joy.  

Edited September 30, 2023 by Scott Free

[Dennis1209]

@AdHoc

First, let us establish if we are on the same page. Do you understand the book of Revelation to be written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted in places? I think this is a major reason why there is so much disagreement, especially in the timing and sequence of events.

Also, before I continue, you said, “My understanding is that no one will be converted during the Great Tribulation.”

I assume you are referring to the last 3.5 years, the time of Jacob’s trouble? Briefly, how do we reconcile the one-third remnant of Israel that will be saved, who cry out to the One whom they pierced to come back? One-third of the Jews today, would be a lot more than 144,000.

My understanding is, that there will also be a small remnant of Gentiles that are allowed to enter the millennial Kingdom, survived, and did not take the mark.

Maybe if we eat this elephant one bite at a time, we can get down to the meat and potatoes. 😊 A lot to discuss…

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Maybe if we eat this elephant one bite at a time, we can get down to the meat and potatoes. 😊 A lot to discuss…

I like that approach! 

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

@AdHoc

First, let us establish if we are on the same page. Do you understand the book of Revelation to be written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted in places? I think this is a major reason why there is so much disagreement, especially in the timing and sequence of events.

Also, before I continue, you said, “My understanding is that no one will be converted during the Great Tribulation.”

I assume you are referring to the last 3.5 years, the time of Jacob’s trouble? Briefly, how do we reconcile the one-third remnant of Israel that will be saved, who cry out to the One whom they pierced to come back? One-third of the Jews today, would be a lot more than 144,000.

My understanding is, that there will also be a small remnant of Gentiles that are allowed to enter the millennial Kingdom, survived, and did not take the mark.

Maybe if we eat this elephant one bite at a time, we can get down to the meat and potatoes. 😊 A lot to discuss…

 

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I like that approach! 

By all means, let us thrash out one point at a time. It is most edifying. Now, to your question. I cannot answer just yet. I need the scriptures you have based this one third on. It is not that I dismiss it, but ...
1. Romans 11 says that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Generally, one of two meanings is give to this. (i) Gentile government ends, in which case it will be Armageddon and the Lord will have returned by then, or (ii) the last Gentile is taken from the Nations for the Church, in which case, according to Acts 15:14-16, it is the citizens of David's House - Israel.

2. I propose a very dark scene, so address it with clear thinking. The usage of the word "generation" in the whole Bible is generally to mean "what is generated". It can mean a lifespan, but is very seldom used thus. It mainly means that some KIND generates the same KIND (Gen.1:11-12). This is clearly seen in our Lord holding "THIS generation" guilty for Abels's blood and ALL innocent blood since then. The Jews whose ORIGIN was in the "viper nature" are what was "generated". In Matthew 23:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, our Lord alludes to Israel as the Fig Tree. (Judah if you want). He says that "this generation will not pass 'TILL ..." The grammar makes TWO things clear. (i) This generation WILL PASS, and (ii) the word "TILL" sets a time. The grammar is intimating that the "generation" (those he called a generation of vipers) WILL PASS.

In simple terms that mean every Israelite will be killed. The exception will be the 144,000 of Revelation 7 for they enjoy special protection (Rev.9:4). So, far from one third of Jews turning to Christ, a case might be made that ALL might be killed except the Remnant.

This sounds extreme, but it must be considered. So any scriptures of Israelites being converted are vital. I might have missed something, but Israel are "saved" by being restored Nationally with God fulfilling His Covenant with Abraham. Abraham and his seed, as per contract, do NOT have to believe in Messiah. The Covenant hangs on CIRCUMCISION. I count 15 promises that must be fulfilled by God. Rebirth and eternal life are NOT among them.

The Book of Revelation
I tend to agree with your divisions of Revelation, but would word it differently. The Book divides itself. John was to write what "WAS", what "IS" and what was "TO COME". I divide the book as follows:
What was: Jesus Revealed as He walks among the Churches in this age
What is: The Churches fallen to apostasy - as they are today
What was to come: The events of the last three and one half years of this age. This section can be divided into a sequence (Chapters 4 to 11), and specific events (Chapters 12 to 19), the Millennium (Chapter 20), and future ages (Chapter 21 & 22).

144,000
In the Old Testament, but especially Numbers, we see how scripture uses numbers. There is hardly a case of round numbers. Even then, it is usually rounded to the hundred. When Abraham went forth against the kings, his trained men were 318. So when an example comes up of each of twelve Tribes being an exact 12,000, and the first verse of the book says that God showed His servants in "signs", it is reasonable to take the 144,000 allegorically. This is only strengthened when 144,000 is also the number of New Jerusalem AND the firstfruits of the Church (Rev.14:1-5). Thus, I personally take 144,000 symbolically. 12 is the number of God's people and Two peoples make up New Jerusalem - 12 Tribes of Israel and 12 Apostolic Foundations to the Church. (see also Ephesians 2:20).

The Tribulation
Our Lord Jesus laid down the Great Tribulation as beginning when the Beast takes his place in the newly built Temple of God (Matt.24). This is half through Daniel's last week. The numbers 1260 days, 42 months, a time, times and half a time all feature prominently in context with this time. I believe the last 1260 days of Daniel's 70th week are the Great Tribulation.

Note; The FAITH needed to be saved is defined in Hebrews 11:1.

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The minute our Lord Jesus burst through the clouds and is SEEN like lightning from east to west, there is no possibility for "saving faith". I find no scripture where Israelites BELIEVE in the last 1260 days.

[SpiritSong]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:29 PM, TheBlade said:

Praise GOD glory to JESUS. Always watching always ready. Always thinking about Him. Always living as if NOW is the moment. Does hurt to see some not ready not watching.

Now the year is 2023 and we have the world of information in are fingers yet some still will not search " None of that pre-trib Darby stuff.". It never started there. I have posted as well as others how some back in 300-400AD (scrolls anyone can read) telling of Christ coming before the great tribulation. Then others before 300ad. But we jump back from 1830 and also in 1600's. Yeah written. So anyone that ignores this its not worth debating. It proves nothing other then there were those that watched ready for Christ to come before the great tribulation. I didn't even touch those of this world that wrote about it

We need to remember not to let anyone steal our joy or our crown. Bless you so much for posting this. 

Thank you for the encouragement! We need to motivate one another as we see the day approaching. Less of me, more of Him, that's my prayer!🙏🙏🙏

[Dennis1209]

On 10/1/2023 at 9:17 AM, AdHoc said:

By all means, let us thrash out one point at a time. It is most edifying. Now, to your question. I cannot answer just yet. I need the scriptures you have based this one third on. It is not that I dismiss it, but ...
1. Romans 11 says that Israel remain blind until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Generally, one of two meanings is give to this. (i) Gentile government ends, in which case it will be Armageddon and the Lord will have returned by then, or (ii) the last Gentile is taken from the Nations for the Church, in which case, according to Acts 15:14-16, it is the citizens of David's House - Israel.

When I mentioned eating that elephant one small bite at a time, I had a small young tender elephant in mind. With my following thoughts, I am by no means arguing or disputing anything, but giving my current understanding and consideration to other views. It is not wise to be dogmatic on eschatology, on my part.

Zechariah 13:8 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Many agree the above is during the time of “Jacob’s trouble.” This will be the remnant of Israel that was refined and protected by God. They are not the 144,000. It stands to reason they will be part of those allowed to enter the one-thousand-year kingdom of Christ. I do not think they started off as believers until they were tried.

On 10/1/2023 at 9:17 AM, AdHoc said:

2. I propose a very dark scene, so address it with clear thinking. The usage of the word "generation" in the whole Bible is generally to mean "what is generated". It can mean a lifespan, but is very seldom used thus. It mainly means that some KIND generates the same KIND (Gen.1:11-12). This is clearly seen in our Lord holding "THIS generation" guilty for Abels's blood and ALL innocent blood since then. The Jews whose ORIGIN was in the "viper nature" are what was "generated". In Matthew 23:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, our Lord alludes to Israel as the Fig Tree. (Judah if you want). He says that "this generation will not pass 'TILL ..." The grammar makes TWO things clear. (i) This generation WILL PASS, and (ii) the word "TILL" sets a time. The grammar is intimating that the "generation" (those he called a generation of vipers) WILL PASS.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [emphasis added]

In all three synoptic Gospels the meaning of the word “this” is the same. True, it carries different meanings depending on the word used and the context. The wording “this generation” is used in 28 Bible verses. The wording “the generation” is used in 65 Bible verses.

In the above example, the word “this” means, according to several lexicons:

                •              οὕτως προοδοιπορούντων those who thus precede AcPlCor 2:37 (restored).

                •              —οὕτως καί Mt 17:12; 18:35; 24:33; Mk 13:29; Lk 17:10. ^[1]

Specifically, what generation and time frame is Jesus assigning this prophetic scripture to? I take this verse to imply, that this generation that is alive (and thereafter) that witnessed the rebirth of Israel after the diaspora, will not die until they witness everything Jesus stated prior to Matthew 24:34.

 

---

^[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 742). University of Chicago Press.

On 10/1/2023 at 9:17 AM, AdHoc said:

The Book of Revelation
I tend to agree with your divisions of Revelation, but would word it differently. The Book divides itself. John was to write what "WAS", what "IS" and what was "TO COME". I divide the book as follows:
What was: Jesus Revealed as He walks among the Churches in this age
What is: The Churches fallen to apostasy - as they are today
What was to come: The events of the last three and one half years of this age. This section can be divided into a sequence (Chapters 4 to 11), and specific events (Chapters 12 to 19), the Millennium (Chapter 20), and future ages (Chapter 21 & 22).

The book of Revelation. I agree, the first three chapters cover what was, and what is (in John’s time). Chapter 4 begins what will be from there on out. The book can be subdivided in several ways.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

I believe this special blessing offered in no other book of the Bible only applies to chapters 1-3. How does one keep anything from chapter four forward, other than to believe it will happen?

On 10/1/2023 at 9:17 AM, AdHoc said:

144,000
In the Old Testament, but especially Numbers, we see how scripture uses numbers. There is hardly a case of round numbers. Even then, it is usually rounded to the hundred. When Abraham went forth against the kings, his trained men were 318. So when an example comes up of each of twelve Tribes being an exact 12,000, and the first verse of the book says that God showed His servants in "signs", it is reasonable to take the 144,000 allegorically. This is only strengthened when 144,000 is also the number of New Jerusalem AND the firstfruits of the Church (Rev.14:1-5). Thus, I personally take 144,000 symbolically. 12 is the number of God's people and Two peoples make up New Jerusalem - 12 Tribes of Israel and 12 Apostolic Foundations to the Church. (see also Ephesians 2:20).

144,000: Your thoughts on this are interesting, I have heard that view before. But it sounds to me like this is a new sealed group, that goes throughout the world in the tribulation preaching and teaching the coming kingdom. I have a long list of biblical numbers (one through 1,000), and their consistent pattern, representation, and usage.  Is the number 12 for governmental perfection, the number of the tribe of Israel and apostles, 7 heads, ten crowns, etc. symbolic? Do we take any biblical numbers as represented by anything? If so, which ones? That is not confrontational, but a question.

On 10/1/2023 at 9:17 AM, AdHoc said:

Note; The FAITH needed to be saved is defined in Hebrews 11:1.

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Speaking of Hebrews 11:1 and other scripture, faith, saving faith, and eternal security, let me run something past you for your opinion. Yesterday evening after our pastor’s sermon on this very subject, he asked if there were any questions. You know, this might be a good topic for a thread on its own.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

When I mentioned eating that elephant one small bite at a time, I had a small young tender elephant in mind. With my following thoughts, I am by no means arguing or disputing anything, but giving my current understanding and consideration to other views. It is not wise to be dogmatic on eschatology, on my part.

Zechariah 13:8 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Many agree the above is during the time of “Jacob’s trouble.” This will be the remnant of Israel that was refined and protected by God. They are not the 144,000. It stands to reason they will be part of those allowed to enter the one-thousand-year kingdom of Christ. I do not think they started off as believers until they were tried.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [emphasis added]

In all three synoptic Gospels the meaning of the word “this” is the same. True, it carries different meanings depending on the word used and the context. The wording “this generation” is used in 28 Bible verses. The wording “the generation” is used in 65 Bible verses.

In the above example, the word “this” means, according to several lexicons:

                •              οὕτως προοδοιπορούντων those who thus precede AcPlCor 2:37 (restored).

                •              —οὕτως καί Mt 17:12; 18:35; 24:33; Mk 13:29; Lk 17:10. ^[1]

Specifically, what generation and time frame is Jesus assigning this prophetic scripture to? I take this verse to imply, that this generation that is alive (and thereafter) that witnessed the rebirth of Israel after the diaspora, will not die until they witness everything Jesus stated prior to Matthew 24:34.

 

---

^[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 742). University of Chicago Press.

The book of Revelation. I agree, the first three chapters cover what was, and what is (in John’s time). Chapter 4 begins what will be from there on out. The book can be subdivided in several ways.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

I believe this special blessing offered in no other book of the Bible only applies to chapters 1-3. How does one keep anything from chapter four forward, other than to believe it will happen?

144,000: Your thoughts on this are interesting, I have heard that view before. But it sounds to me like this is a new sealed group, that goes throughout the world in the tribulation preaching and teaching the coming kingdom. I have a long list of biblical numbers (one through 1,000), and their consistent pattern, representation, and usage.  Is the number 12 for governmental perfection, the number of the tribe of Israel and apostles, 7 heads, ten crowns, etc. symbolic? Do we take any biblical numbers as represented by anything? If so, which ones? That is not confrontational, but a question.

Speaking of Hebrews 11:1 and other scripture, faith, saving faith, and eternal security, let me run something past you for your opinion. Yesterday evening after our pastor’s sermon on this very subject, he asked if there were any questions. You know, this might be a good topic for a thread on its own.

Thank you for your comprehensive answer. I am familiar with most of your understanding, and, as stated, you hold a majority view of some subjects. That means that many very capable men agree on something. That is to be respected.

As this was an exchange of ideas, I don't have much more to add, except that you have a good argument with Zechariah 13. My take on the generation that will pass is precarious at best, but if we want to use "generation" as a group of Jews living when Israel became a nation, nearly all have died already and have not seen "these things" prophesied. History is a great test.

The Remnant is largely misunderstood. If you ask students why God kept a Remnant of Israel for the last days, you get some way out answers. The most common is that they will believe in Jesus. But no scriptures are given. You see, the moment an Israelite believes he becomes a New Creature and old things, including his ethnicity, are ended. The Remnant of Israel always turned to the LAW. This is the condition given by Moses in Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

Well. its 01:20 here and bed time for an old man. It's been nice to swap ideas. You're ever so courteous - and well read. Well have you said that being dogmatic in eschatology is risky. I've never seen, heard or read of two students agreeing 100%.

Good night soldier.

[Dennis1209]

6 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

My take on the generation that will pass is precarious at best, but if we want to use "generation" as a group of Jews living when Israel became a nation, nearly all have died already and have not seen "these things" prophesied. History is a great test.

Some excellent points you bring up. Some disagree but, I do not promote or exclude Psalm 90:10 as being the average longevity of a generation, and there are five years remaining. Or, it might be looked at as the final person in that generation.

i.e., 1948 + 80 = 2028. I do not endorse this thought, but it is interesting (season).

It is not generally wide knowledge of how many prophecies were fulfilled in such a short time span in that (this) generation. At least a dozen, Israel, regaining control of Jerusalem, the mountains of Israel, their currency, language, undivided nation, political system, etc. 

The only thing I am absolutely sure of, we are living in dangerous and exciting times. 

[angels4u]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:24 PM, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your comprehensive answer. I am familiar with most of your understanding, and, as stated, you hold a majority view of some subjects. That means that many very capable men agree on something. That is to be respected.

As this was an exchange of ideas, I don't have much more to add, except that you have a good argument with Zechariah 13. My take on the generation that will pass is precarious at best, but if we want to use "generation" as a group of Jews living when Israel became a nation, nearly all have died already and have not seen "these things" prophesied. History is a great test.

The Remnant is largely misunderstood. If you ask students why God kept a Remnant of Israel for the last days, you get some way out answers. The most common is that they will believe in Jesus. But no scriptures are given. You see, the moment an Israelite believes he becomes a New Creature and old things, including his ethnicity, are ended. The Remnant of Israel always turned to the LAW. This is the condition given by Moses in Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

Well. its 01:20 here and bed time for an old man. It's been nice to swap ideas. You're ever so courteous - and well read. Well have you said that being dogmatic in eschatology is risky. I've never seen, heard or read of two students agreeing 100%.

Good night soldier.

Quote

As this was an exchange of ideas, I don't have much more to add, except that you have a good argument with Zechariah 13. My take on the generation that will pass is precarious at best, but if we want to use "generation" as a group of Jews living when Israel became a nation, nearly all have died already and have not seen "these things" prophesied. History is a great test.

Hi AdHoc :

This is how I see it happening in the end :

The generation who is living since Israel became a nation (1948) will also see the end ,we don't know how long  a generation is but we do know that Jesus return will be in that same generation and on the end of the Tribulation, only 1/3 of the people in Israel will survive,after 3 1/2 years of Tribulation when the A.C. is going to sit in the temple (rebuild) and declares himself God ,1/3 of the people in Israel will have their eyes opened for the truth and realize that this person is not the promised Messiah,he will persecute the Jews and 1/3 will survive the Tribulation and will flee to Petra in Jordan where God will protect them until He comes back to earth. The144.000 who you were  preaching the gospel during the Tribulation.