An End-Time Consideration

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

1 & 2. Those taken in the flood and in the field, and at the mill, were all doing everyday activities - eating, drinking, marrying, sleeping, working.  

3 & 4. Watch. otherwise you`ll be with the hypocrites where there is weeping and gnashing...judgment. 

5 - 7. The revelation of the church was not revealed at that time but given to the apostle Paul when the Lord ascended to the Father.

 

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

same mistake the church is NOT revealed at that time, only when the Lord ascended to the Father, did He reveal the Body of Christ to the Apostle Paul.

Am I to understand that you you have withheld exegesis of a passage of scripture because progressive revelation annuls it? Let's see. In John 2 Christ speaks of His Body. Is that invalid? In John 1 Christ speaks of Bethel - "House of God". Is that not valid because Paul was not yet informed? In John 14 the Father's House is taught. Are we to forego explaining that because we have not considered Paul?

In your 7 points you did not follow the text. You did not even show why, if they face judgment, ALL are killed at Noah's time, but only ONE IN TWO is killed at Christ's return? You deny the House can be the Church but give no indication what House at Noah's time was broken up. There is much more that can be said, but your theory that those who have Jesus as THEIR LORD are to be slaughtered like the days of Noah, makes discussion difficult.

Nevertheless, it was good talking to you - and we're bound to meet again on another subject. Go well.

[Dennis1209]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

You're going to have to deal with the grammar I pointed out. If you don't, and you keep your view, it means then that those "taken" in judgment by the thief are the watchful and who had, as their Lord, Jesus. That is, judgment when they have served well - for no evil is shown. You have then to explain why a watchful servant is LEFT to the "days of Noah ans subsequent judgment when Luke 21:36 says the watchful one ESCAPES. You'll have to explain whose "House" it was in Noah's time (before the Nations).  You'll have to explain why our Lord terms Himself a Thief but only comes for the evil ones.

This is the context:

In 24:3 the disciples asked three questions. His answer is to them deals with the fate of the Jews 4-31 from the destruction of the Temple till their gathering from the diaspora (only the Jew was dispersed to the "four winds"). In this section, everything is Jewish. Even the disciples who asked the questions are sent to the "circumcision" with the gospel of the kingdom (Gal.2).

- Then, our Lord abruptly changes to a PARABLE. According to Matthew 13:10-11 a Parable is only given to the Church.
- Instead of a "sign" like wars, false Christ's etc, our Lord alludes to the moral condition of Noah's time as "sign". Bringing in Noah's day to the Apostles points to one thing - UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT
- Then he introduces HOW His SERVANTS escape. An Ark will help little. So by what means does a watchful servant escape? In Philippians 3:14 it is by the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (Lit. Gk). In Luke 21:36 it is to "stand" before the Son of man who is in the clouds, and so "escape". In Revelation 3:10 it is to be "kept from the HOUR"
- Then in verse 44 the disciples are warned to be ready
- Then another PARABLE follows about a SERVANT of the Lord who turns to evil
- The another PARABLE follows about Virgins. Only Christians are called "Virgins" in the New Testament (2nd Cor.11:2)
- The another PARABLE follows about SERVANTS who must manage THEIR Lord's Goods.

I think you will agree that considering the questions asked, the Period they asked about, and the constant pointers to the Church, the context can hardly be the victims of the great flood.

PART TWO

I will try to keep this brief. With all the Biblical information given about the days of Noah, which are coming again. Why did Jesus have to go all the way back to the time of Noah, and the reason for the flood.

Were there not plenty of more eras and ages Jesus could have referred to after the flood of Noah that match everything said, beginning shortly after the flood at the Tower of Bable, followed by Deuteronomy 32? Continuing with the evil empires, high places, child sacrifice, and idolatry. Eating, drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, men’s hearts are continually evil.

Parables, types, and shadows are fascinating to study with the advantage of hindsight. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Enoch is an example of being taken FROM the coming judgment. Noah and the seven, a remnant, lifted above judgment, carried THROUGH, and protected from judgment. Moses raising the brazen serpent, leading to the most famous and beloved Bible verses and many more.

We see history and the work of Satan, and how it was in the days of Noah with the first prophecy in the Bible, Genesis 3:15, getting worse with Genesis 6:1-4, and the Deuteronomy 32 descriptions.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning,

It is always wonderful to discuss God’s Word and compare notes. Let’s take this one bite at a time. As always, I am not disputing opinions but comparing notes.

Where do you see the “church” in Matthew 13:10-14?

The audience: The disciples ask (Jews-Israel), Jesus answers, it is given to you (Israel). The subject is the kingdom of heaven and to whom it should be given. John the Baptist came preaching the kingdom of heaven; Jesus continued with it until they would reject it, so it has been delayed, “but to them it is not given.” Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

I take the “them” as the gentiles. To paraphrase Matthew 13:12, if you know a little truth and you want to know more, the Lord will add to it. If you do not want to know the truth, the Lord will see to it that you will not get it. I associate that thought with Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

Good day to you too.

Yeah. It's good just to compare notes.

Matthew concerns the Kingdom. For the Kingdom a person needs rebirth (JN.3:3-5). Matthew assumes that the disciples are born to the Father. So in Matthew 5, 6 & 7 it is "MY Father", "YOUR" Father, and "OUR Father" (seeing as He ONLY addressed His disciples - Mathew 5:1-2 - "... and He taught THEM").

In Matthew 12 our Lord's rejection is complete. He is accused of being a servant of Beelzebub and the Holy Spirit is affronted by being called a demon. Thus, the unforgivable sin is committed and Israel will reap bitterness and revenge "in this age and the next". Jesus then turns and rejects Israel.

Chapter 12
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Chapter 13
1  The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying,

He starts with His connection according to the flesh. He denies connection to His mother and brethren. In the same moment He admits that His new affiliation is to the DISCIPLES - and they, by being "Brethren" MUST HAVE THE SAME FATHER!

But the rejection of Israel is not complete. Jesus "leaves the House". The text does not say which House, but the context is unmistakable. It was the house where His connection to Israel ended - the House of Israel. But it goes further. To Abraham are promised seed "as the sand of the sea shore". That is, they are next to and surrounded by "the sea" - typology for the Nations, but are a special and separate Nation. This our Lord leaves t00 - in a boat. A boat is IN the sea, but not OF the sea. These few verses at the end of Matthew 12 and the beginning of 13 are probably the most tragic in THE WHOLE BIBLE if it were not for this same select Nation installing a Gentile man in the Holy Place (2nd Thess.2:4).

The new company called DISCIPLES is the Church.

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (Act.11:26)

[AdHoc]

49 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

PART TWO

I will try to keep this brief. With all the Biblical information given about the days of Noah, which are coming again. Why did Jesus have to go all the way back to the time of Noah, and the reason for the flood.

Were there not plenty of more eras and ages Jesus could have referred to after the flood of Noah that match everything said, beginning shortly after the flood at the Tower of Bable, followed by Deuteronomy 32? Continuing with the evil empires, high places, child sacrifice, and idolatry. Eating, drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, men’s hearts are continually evil.

Parables, types, and shadows are fascinating to study with the advantage of hindsight. The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Enoch is an example of being taken FROM the coming judgment. Noah and the seven, a remnant, lifted above judgment, carried THROUGH, and protected from judgment. Moses raising the brazen serpent, leading to the most famous and beloved Bible verses and many more.

We see history and the work of Satan, and how it was in the days of Noah with the first prophecy in the Bible, Genesis 3:15, getting worse with Genesis 6:1-4, and the Deuteronomy 32 descriptions.

Aaaahhh! Why Noah ... ?

Because Noah's case is (i) the only case which provoked UNIVERSAL Judgement, and (ii) it was an attack on the seed of the Woman promised in Genesis 3.

(i) Most Christians have difficulty with the Great Tribulation. The reason is that they don't quite believe Bible when it says

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (Lk 21:35)

There is so much talk of a refuge here or there. But there is none. Just as the flood covered the highest mountain there will be no crack or cave where a man can avoid what is coming - "ALL THE EARTH". Verse 36 follows and tells where there is escape - "standing" (in resurrection) before the Son of man (rapture - for He is still in the clouds until "AFTER the tribulation of those days").

(ii) It is not for nothing that the activities of the evil of Noah's time where "marrying and giving in marriage". You see, most of us think that marriage is a contract on paper. But the Bible does not hold this view. Marriage is when a man and a woman copulate and subsequently stay together. "Marriage" in the Bible is sex. And the main sins of Noah's time was angels having sex (marrying) human women and violence.

The many evils that men do are all to do one thing. That is, prevent the "generation" of mankind. For Jesus to be a Savior He had to be a MAN. So Satan attacks the seed. Angel copulation, homosexuality, bestiality, striking a man in his testicles, murder, war, plagues and "forbidding to marry" are all aimed at the seed of the woman.

And now, in the last days we have the seed of the woman Mystery Babylon, and the seed of the Woman - New Jerusalem. One culminates in the Beast and the other in Jesus. The seed of the serpent produced men who Christ called "generation of vipers". The seed of New Jerusalem, which is "mother of us all" produces a Man-Child. Who will win?

P.S. Note the CONTRAST in Matthew 24. Those condemned were marrying and eating. Those who must "watch" are working or resting. Those of Noah's day are "taken" (airo - Gk). They are sinners and the waters of death "airo" them. But those working are "taken" (paralambano - Gk.). One snatched away like our sins on the cross (Jn.1:29), and one "taken as a beloved friend" (Matt.2:14)

If, by some mistake in the grammar, those of Noah's day are the TWO then it would read 

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Two will be in the field;

Instead it inserts an adverb which shows something else IN ADDITION happening;

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field;

Verse 39 is a continuation of verse 36;

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, ... 40 Then shall two be in the field;

The ONE of TWO taken is not connected to Noah's day. It is connected to the Day of the Lord. Noah's day is the moral equivalent.

[TheBlade]

Hi all.. I wanted to say thanks "Marilyn C"

Well when you talked about two in the field one taken one left. I never saw that as the rapture (caught up) and never the way you said it but.. I like it, gonna look more in to that. I always thought maybe someone took them somewhere haha. 

All you guys have done is make me want to go home even more. Thank you 

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

Am I to understand that you you have withheld exegesis of a passage of scripture because progressive revelation annuls it? Let's see. In John 2 Christ speaks of His Body. Is that invalid? In John 1 Christ speaks of Bethel - "House of God". Is that not valid because Paul was not yet informed? In John 14 the Father's House is taught. Are we to forego explaining that because we have not considered Paul?

In your 7 points you did not follow the text. You did not even show why, if they face judgment, ALL are killed at Noah's time, but only ONE IN TWO is killed at Christ's return? You deny the House can be the Church but give no indication what House at Noah's time was broken up. There is much more that can be said, but your theory that those who have Jesus as THEIR LORD are to be slaughtered like the days of Noah, makes discussion difficult.

Nevertheless, it was good talking to you - and we're bound to meet again on another subject. Go well.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Not `withheld` anything. Just we often have difficulty understanding each other`s comments. 

1. John 1. House of God - Gen. 28: 17 a place out from Beersheba.

2. John 2. Christ`s physical body not His spiritual Body that He began after He ascended to the Father and the Father made Him Head of. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

3. All are NOT killed at Noah`s time only those `the flood took away.` 

4. Watch. That is what the Lord was focusing on and used the illustration of the master of the house not knowing when the thief would come. 

Israel was blind and is blinded, thus they wont know when the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

The Body of Christ however, is NOT in darkness that this day should overtake them as a thief. (1 Thess. 5: 4)

[AdHoc]

13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Not `withheld` anything. Just we often have difficulty understanding each other`s comments. 

1. John 1. House of God - Gen. 28: 17 a place out from Beersheba.

2. John 2. Christ`s physical body not His spiritual Body that He began after He ascended to the Father and the Father made Him Head of. (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

3. All are NOT killed at Noah`s time only those `the flood took away.` 

4. Watch. That is what the Lord was focusing on and used the illustration of the master of the house not knowing when the thief would come. 

Israel was blind and is blinded, thus they wont know when the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

The Body of Christ however, is NOT in darkness that this day should overtake them as a thief. (1 Thess. 5: 4)

Yes. We partly have massive differences. But I learn things I've never considered, so there is profit. Like point 2. If I haven't missed something Christ's Body is Physical only. He was touchable the night after He was resurrected and our BODIES are His Members (1st Cor.6:15). That is why, when He introduced His Church in Matthew 16 He said that the Gates of Hades will not prevail. When a Christian dies his body is lost to Christ's Body. The Gates of Hades, the place of the souls of dead men, will eventually be opened by our Lord Who has the keys and the Church will be built by RESURRECTED bodies. 

It is God's HOUSE that is spiritual (1st Pet.2:4). He dwells in our human spirit, and we must worship Him there (Jn.4:24).

Genesis 28 is a profound revelation of the House of God. It gives the process of its construction. Angels, a ladder, a stone and man who slept but woke. It is the result of 7 crucial things in John Chapter 1.

Point 4. Israel is not mentioned. Why would Christ break up Israel when it is already in diaspora? Rather, verse 31 says He "gathers them"

But anyway - nice swap of ideas. If I was in your area on Lord's Day we could have broken bread together. Take care.

[Marilyn C]

53 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. We partly have massive differences. But I learn things I've never considered, so there is profit. Like point 2. If I haven't missed something Christ's Body is Physical only. He was touchable the night after He was resurrected and our BODIES are His Members (1st Cor.6:15). That is why, when He introduced His Church in Matthew 16 He said that the Gates of Hades will not prevail. When a Christian dies his body is lost to Christ's Body. The Gates of Hades, the place of the souls of dead men, will eventually be opened by our Lord Who has the keys and the Church will be built by RESURRECTED bodies. 

It is God's HOUSE that is spiritual (1st Pet.2:4). He dwells in our human spirit, and we must worship Him there (Jn.4:24).

Genesis 28 is a profound revelation of the House of God. It gives the process of its construction. Angels, a ladder, a stone and man who slept but woke. It is the result of 7 crucial things in John Chapter 1.

Point 4. Israel is not mentioned. Why would Christ break up Israel when it is already in diaspora? Rather, verse 31 says He "gathers them"

But anyway - nice swap of ideas. If I was in your area on Lord's Day we could have broken bread together. Take care.

Yes, Ad Hoc, we would have a good time sharing together and have nearly endless discussions.

You seem to go off on a tangent and forget the scriptures we are looking at. 

1. The Body of Christ was NOT revealed till Christ ascended and gave the revelation to Paul. (Eph. 3: 5) Thus, Matt. 24: 37 - 51 is NOT about the Body of Christ.

2. The `house` in Matt. 24: 45 is just an illustration of not knowing when the Lord will come for Israel and the nations. The Body of Christ will know for we are NOT in darkness. (1 Thess. 5: 4)

3. Jesus is talking to Israel!!!!! It is their future!!!!!

[Revelation Man]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:39 PM, Dennis1209 said:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The above speaks to the instantaneous resurrection and glorification of our bodies. It does not talk of instantaneously meeting the Lord in the clouds. From a pretribulation view, let me propose my thoughts on the harpazo, the church's Rapture. How it may be explained away and accepted, with the advantage of living at the end of the age, and what is now transpiring. Granted, this is speculation based on current events and Biblical descriptions of deception.

Hello brother Dennis, we don't just vanish as many seem to think. 1 Cor. 15, if read in full, especially vs. 44, shows that those raised from the dead are raised as SPIRIT MEN, without corrupt bodies. Since flesh and blood can not enter heaven, we who are alive on earth at the pre 70th week rapture, MUST BE CHANGED. Well, why? Flesh and Blood can not enter heaven, so just like those raised from the dead, as spirit men, we have to shed our corrupt flesh to enter heaven. So, we do not vanish, we all simply die and our spirt man goes to be with the Lord, where we marry the Lamb. (CHANGED in a flash implies we do not die and rest like the others who died, we die and go straight to heaven)

Jesus said I go and prepare a place for you, in my Fathers house (not on earth) and if I go I will receive you unto myself (a wedding). The Jewish wedding is being used by Jesus, the bride & groom always stayed in the grooms fathers house for 7 days (7 years). The bride and groom entered into an engagement contract (the holy writ of God). 

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. 

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16)

The Bride is given a gift by the Groom (Holy Spirit)

The Purification of the Bride or  ceremonial cleansing AKA our Baptism

 9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - I Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - I Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

I could go on until step 12, but its clear, we go to heaven to marry the Lamb, just like Rev. 19 says. However we do so as Spirit men, and God thus gives us our glorious bodies in heaven. 

Edited January 13 by Revelation Man

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Hello brother Dennis, we don't just vanish as many seem to think. 1 Cor. 15, if read in fill, especially vs. 44, shows that those raised from the dead are raised as SPIRIT MEN, without corrupt bodies. Since flesh and blood can not enter heaven, we who are alive on earth at the pre 70th week rapture, MUST BE CHANGED. Well, why? Flesh and Blood can not enter heaven, so just like those raised from the dead, as spirit men, we have to shed our corrupt flesh to enter heaven. So, we do not vanish, we all simply die and our spirt man goes to be with the Lord, where we marry the Lamb. 

 

 

Hi Rev. Man,

I so agree that we will go to heaven. Great. Now I do have a couple of questions you may like to consider.

1. How are spirit men the bride, (female)?

2. Why does Jesus want to marry millions of spirit men?

 

Hope we can discuss this and find out what God`s word really says.