"We accept Christ - then get a bunch of rules to follow"

[Dennis1209]

On 2/1/2024 at 7:33 AM, AdHoc said:

Fig-Leaves .... man loves laws. Man must have some sort of standard by which he can be measured and justified. But please .. not God's standard ... . While God shows a Nation overcome by Law, the Christians are looking for more laws.

How would we fair if we had 613 rules and laws to follow?

[Vine Abider]

3 hours ago, Neighbor said:

"We accept Christ - then get a bunch of rules to follow"

And praise the Holy Spirit for entering and  enabling those born again so that each may come to see the wisdom of and the need for learning and joyously adhering to those rules.

 

I think the difference is this - once saved do we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me; now I will do my best to follow Your rules - I've got this!"?

Or do we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me; now You live in me and please help me to live this Christian life by denying myself and having You as my inner source - for without You I truly can do nothing!"?

[Starise]

The Mosaic law was specific to that people for that time. While there may have been useful things in it, those laws were also adhering to a sinful and barbaric people who had adopted policies that were not condusive to fair treatment of humans. God worked within that framework to bring those people around and made laws, i.e. a writ of divorce and rules for slaves that were not morally superior. Neither of those follows our second commandment, but they were allowed. NOT condoned.

 

 

[AdHoc]

 

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

How would we fair if we had 613 rules and laws to follow?

Just straight off I would answer that we would do quite quite well But this no comfort, for "quite well" ends in death as surely ... 

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all (Jas 2:10)

But decisive, for me, is Galatians 4:29 we it is connected to 5:17

4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now .... 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The Israelite cannot afford to break the Law once under the new Covenant because Christ says He will wipe their name out. So what dos God equip the Israelite with?
1. He gets a new spirit
2. He gets a new heart
3. They are in resurrection (a new body without the Adamic nature)
4. The 613 Laws are written on their inner man

With this setup the Jew will intrinsically follow the Law. But we are not in this condition now. We have God dwelling in our human spirit - the same spirit but with the rebirth. We are still in the flesh. And we do not have the Law written on our inward parts. Our resource is nt a new spirit. It is to have the Holy Spirit dwell in our human spirit and HE supplies the power and motivation to be obedient to His instant and written word.

The Jew must still exercise himself to keep the Law (though he is fully equipped to do it). W must turn inward for God in Christ as our resource and commander.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

I think the difference is this - once saved do we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me; now I will do my best to follow Your rules - I've got this!"?

Or do we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me; now You live in me and please help me to live this Christian life by denying myself and having You as my inner source - for without You I truly can do nothing!"?

Half the trouble you're having being understood in the OP is that at least half of Christians don't believe that there is such a thing as a bad Christian. They consign the slothful Believer to the camp of the unbeliever. You see, if being saved is going to heaven, then salvation is by works - for in their minds it is the "Kingdom IN Heaven".

The other half is man exercising  his gifted of logic to get one row of ducks. He is comfortable with one precept leading logically to the next ... and the next. But God is not bound by such a talent. He has at least three "economies" running together. The Gentile is managed by conscience (Rom.2) still today. The Jew is never parted from Law. He is under its chastisement right now. And the Christian is subject to an economy hat is totally incompatible with law.

By not considering this, and by trying to force one single economy, the confusion is complete (I hope this is taken by others as an observation and not an insult). "Dispensationalism" is a great theme, but you have to use the word correctly - what God is DISPENSING. If we take it as an age, or a period of time, then we are forced to have one dispensing for three totally different peoples.

Just look at how many of our dear brethren think that the Christian is somehow involved in the Law. One brother even said that the Law was not nailed to the cross despite the grammar of Colossians 2:14. This comes from the concept that is not possible for there to be a people under Law living at the same as there is a people for whom the Law does not apply, nay, is an enemy.

Your Thread has turned up the worms - Bravo.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

I think the difference is this - once saved do we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me; now I will do my best to follow Your rules - I've got this!"?

Or do we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me; now You live in me and please help me to live this Christian life by denying myself and having You as my inner source - for without You I truly can do nothing!"?

Not to be limited to those two selections; I state that I simply have a little talk with Jesus and ask is it good between you and me?

As to rules and leaders; I have benefitted greatly from a local body that does pray, read, study, think, and apply Matthew 18.

Yes pilgrim there are rules. God has shared that He is a jealous God that will not tolerate other God's before Him. Our Lord has admonished and threatened church bodies that have left their first love. God's house is a house of order, not of chaos.

Those that refuse to bend to rules, order, and leadership are simply not good stewards of their own salvation.

[FJK]

11 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The other half is man exercising  his gifted of logic to get one row of ducks. He is comfortable with one precept leading logically to the next ... and the next. But God is not bound by such a talent.

But when God created -actually formed- Man in his image with the ability to use logical thinking, did he create man as bound by it intending it as a directive for thinking or is there an overruling way to think he gave him that stands above logic?

This is not a lighthearted question to consider.  It's something I've pondered at length.

[Sower]

"We accept Christ - then get a bunch of rules to follow"

 

I do not believe when the Holy Spirit convicts me he is setting a rule.
I do not believe a man's judgement to me (rules) beyond scripture to be my guide.

 

            Notice different translations below:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.....KJV

In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.....ESV

One implies God is directing me, he shall direct thy paths....KJV

The other says, he will make straight your paths.

There have been habits/sins in my life I was convicted by my spirit to quit.
I used many many methods to quit (my own understanding) that were fruitless.

Eventually He delivered me. I couldn't. He could. (not my efforts/understanding)
I have learned God will make straight my path His way, His timing.
Not my fruitless law abiding, but his Holy Spirit conviction.

So. I download scriptures to my hard drive mind, this light removes darkness.
This light is my "rules," as the light reveals it to me.
Not my wife or brother/sister or friend nor pastor.
Their good' counsel goes through the filter of the word (light) I have down loaded.

I believe that is one of the purposes of God living within us, guidance.
I can better appreciate why the spirit can be grieved or quenched, (flesh).

The word is my deciding factor, confirmed by the spirit of God.
Anything, anything, I do without faith I know it to be sin.

It is God's spirit that gives that faith in decisions. Or Not!
My flesh does not like this and cries out. (another signal to recognize sin:)
 

PS Edit;
Lest we forget, we are in spiritual boot camp in the army of God. Later we will be evaluated to our position at the Bema seat.
All this stuff we debate should make us stronger faithful tougher soldiers for Christ. Not wannabes.

My boot camp drill instructor is God's spirit within me. He know all things. He is pushing me, drilling me, beyond what I thought my body could handle. I'm not going to ring the bell and go awol. I'll keep running the race. Knowing that, graduation is just around the corner. Can I get an Amen..

[Vine Abider]

10 minutes ago, Sower said:

"We accept Christ - then get a bunch of rules to follow"

 

I do not believe when the Holy Spirit convicts me he is setting a rule.
I do not believe a man's judgement to me (rules) beyond scripture to be my guide.

 

            Notice different translations below:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.....KJV

In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.....ESV

One implies God is directing me, he shall direct thy paths....KJV

The other says, he will make straight your paths.

There have been habits/sins in my life I was convicted by my spirit to quit.
I used many many methods to quit (my own understanding) that were fruitless.

Eventually He delivered me. I couldn't. He could. (not my efforts/understanding)
I have learned God will make straight my path His way, His timing.
Not my fruitless law abiding, but his Holy Spirit conviction.

So. I download scriptures to my hard drive mind, this light removes darkness.
This light is my "rules," as the light reveals it to me.
Not my wife or brother/sister or friend nor pastor.
Their good' counsel goes through the filter of the word (light) I have down loaded.

I believe that is one of the purposes of God living within us, guidance.
I can better appreciate why the spirit can be grieved or quenched, (flesh).

The word is my deciding factor, confirmed by the spirit of God.
Anything, anything, I do without faith I know it to be sin.

It is God's spirit that gives that faith in decisions. Or Not!
My flesh does not like this and cries out. (another signal to recognize sin:)
 

 

And I think you have stated this well!  As a Christian we have a choice of our source, for instance when reading or hearing a message on the so-called Beatitudes (Matt 5). We can hear that we should "love those who spitefully you" and respond by saying, "I must do this" and then set about with all our might to do what is impossible for man to do.  Or we can recognize that there is nothing in us - except the Lord's Spirit Who is one with our spirit - Who is able to do this, and then live by Him as our source. 

Accordingly we would say, "Lord, it is beyond impossible for me to do this in myself, but thank you that You live in me to be my fresh source right now!"

[other one]

4 hours ago, FJK said:

Only if you ignore the Noahide laws given to Noah after the flood which apply to all of his descendants (which is all men)..

From Chabad.org:

Do not profane G‑d’s Oneness in any way.
Acknowledge that there is a single G‑d who cares about what we are doing and desires that we take care of His world.

Do not curse your Creator.
No matter how angry you may be, do not take it out verbally against your Creator.

Do not murder.
The value of human life cannot be measured. To destroy a single human life is to destroy the entire world—because, for that person, the world has ceased to exist. It follows that by sustaining a single human life, you are sustaining an entire universe.

Do not eat a limb of a still-living animal.
Respect the life of all G‑d’s creatures. As intelligent beings, we have a duty not to cause undue pain to other creatures.

Do not steal.
Whatever benefits you receive in this world, make sure that none of them are at the unfair expense of someone else.

Harness and channel the human libido.
Incest, adultery, rape and homosexual relations are forbidden.
The family unit is the foundation of human society. Sexuality is the fountain of life and so nothing is more holy than the sexual act. So, too, when abused, nothing can be more debasing and destructive to the human being.

Establish courts of law and ensure justice in our world.
With every small act of justice, we are restoring harmony to our world, synchronizing it with a supernal order. That is why we must keep the laws established by our government for the country’s stability and harmony

 

These laws were set up to help people live together, not to get you to heaven.  And I would disagree they were given to Noah by the Lord.  The way they are written would get you beheaded for calling Jesus God.