What About The Palestinians ?

[RdJ]

On 2/27/2024 at 4:55 AM, Slibhin said:

 

2. If he claimed to be G-d then the Jews at the time did exactly what G-d instructed them to do in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. It is very clear that anyone who promotes idol worship or anything contrary to the Torah, even if they perform miracles, is to be put to death. If Jesus is who he says he is then he can't be angry at us for following his own laws.

Rabbi Tovia Singer said that he didn't believe that the pharisees were as evil as they are portrayed in the N.T. and he thought Jesus was very nasty to them. He said: If they had seen that He got raised from the dead they would surely have said: Oh no. We were wrong and accepted Him. But they did not. So either it's a lie and Jesus didn't raise from the dead or they were really that evil.

[other one]

5 minutes ago, RdJ said:

Rabbi Tovia Singer said that he didn't believe that the pharisees were as evil as they are portrayed in the N.T. and he thought Jesus was very nasty to them. He said: If they had seen that He got raised from the dead they would surely have said: Oh no. We were wrong and accepted Him. But they did not. So either it's a lie and Jesus didn't raise from the dead or they were really that evil.

I'm guessing it is Evil.

[RdJ]

5 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I have read my late husband's Bible almost in it's entirety over the winter. I am u  fact open minded. I have yet to see how it's message is consistent with the Torah, where G-d says one cannot pay for the sins of another. G-d also calls human sacrifice an abomination and has destroyed nations for the practice.

The offerings, innocent animals paid for sins. 

For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
Leviticus 17:11 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/lev.17.11.NKJV

If Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus but Israel it would mean God sacrificed Israel for the gentiles, which would be human sacrifices. At least Jesus was God Himself, so it wasn't a real human sacrifice.

Singer says that Israel, specifically the righteous remnant of Israel, is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53, enduring for the transgressions of the Gentiles. 

How is a normal human messiah not idolatry by the way?

“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13‭-‬14 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/dan.7.13-14.NKJV

This is a normal human?

And:

Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.” But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.” 
I Samuel 8

[FJK]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

He is an advocate for Judaism and unapologetic about it.

Sorry to but in, but I'd venture a thought here:  This attitude of Singer's is actually good, Jesus said he prefers that we are either hot or cold and not lukewarm and he was a Jew talking to Jews when he said that.

FWIW, I hold that same attitude, and did before I became truly Christian, since I would fr rather know and associate with people who have strong belief either agreeing or disagreeing with my own because it is only from them I can learn and become a better person for it.  (Although I do prefer those who can be nice while doing it over those that can only seem to abrade)

Where can I learn more of this Rabbi Singer, or learn more from him?

[RdJ]

55 minutes ago, FJK said:

Sorry to but in, but I'd venture a thought here:  This attitude of Singer's is actually good, Jesus said he prefers that we are either hot or cold and not lukewarm and he was a Jew talking to Jews when he said that.

FWIW, I hold that same attitude, and did before I became truly Christian, since I would fr rather know and associate with people who have strong belief either agreeing or disagreeing with my own because it is only from them I can learn and become a better person for it.  (Although I do prefer those who can be nice while doing it over those that can only seem to abrade)

Where can I learn more of this Rabbi Singer, or learn more from him?

He's on youtube. Michael Brown used to debate him.

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I have read my late husband's Bible almost in it's entirety over the winter. I am u  fact open minded.

Shalom, Slibhin.

Glad to hear it! Being open-minded is the first step to acceptance of an otherwise-unpleasant truth.

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

I have yet to see how it's message is consistent with the Torah, where G-d says one cannot pay for the sins of another. G-d also calls human sacrifice an abomination and has destroyed nations for the practice.

God also required the deaths of MANY animals as a PICTURE of what His Son (David's Son) would do on our behalf.

2 Corinthians 5:9-21 (CJB)

9 Therefore, whether at home or away from home, we try our utmost to please him; 10 for we must all appear before the Messiah’s court of judgment, where everyone will receive the good or bad consequences of what he did while he was in the body.

11 So it is with the fear of the Lord before us that we try to persuade people. Moreover, God knows us as we really are; and I hope that in your consciences you too know us as we really are. 12 We are not recommending ourselves to you again but giving you a reason to be proud of us, so that you will be able to answer those who boast about a person’s appearance rather than his inner qualities. 13 If we are insane, it is for God’s sake; and if we are sane, it is for your sake. 14 For the Messiah’s love has hold of us, because we are convinced that one man died on behalf of all mankind (which implies that all mankind was already dead), 15 and that he died on behalf of all in order that those who live should not live any longer for themselves but for the one who on their behalf died and was raised. 16 So from now on, we do not look at anyone from a worldly viewpoint. Even if we once regarded the Messiah from a worldly viewpoint, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation — the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! 18 And it is all from God, who through the Messiah has reconciled us to himself and has given us the work of that reconciliation, 19 which is that God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore we are ambassadors of the Messiah; in effect, God is making his appeal through us. What we do is appeal on behalf of the Messiah, “Be reconciled to God! 21 God made this sinless man be a sin offering on our behalf, so that in union with him we might fully share in God’s righteousness.”

Paul is here quoting in part from Isaiah 53.

Isaiah 53:1-12 (CJB)

1 Who believes our report?
To whom is the arm of Adonai (Messiah) revealed?
2 For before him he grew up like a young plant,
like a root out of dry ground.
He was not well-formed or especially handsome;
we saw him, but his appearance did not attract us.
3 People despised and avoided him,
a man of pains, well acquainted with illness.
Like someone from whom people turn their faces,
he was despised; we did not value him.
4 In fact, it was our diseases he bore,
our pains from which he suffered;
yet we regarded him as punished,
stricken and afflicted by God.
5 But he was wounded because of our crimes,
crushed because of our sins;
the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him,
and by his bruises we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, went astray;
we turned, each one, to his own way;
yet Adonai laid on him
the guilt of all of us.
7 Though mistreated, he was submissive —
he did not open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to be slaughtered,
like a sheep silent before its shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 After forcible arrest and sentencing,
he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
9 He was given a grave among the wicked;
in his death he was with a rich man.
Although he had done no violence
and had said nothing deceptive,
10 yet it pleased Adonai to crush him with illness,
to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering.
If he does, he will see his offspring;
and he will prolong his days;
and at his hand Adonai’s desire
will be accomplished.
11 After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction.

“By his knowing [pain and sacrifice],
my righteous servant makes many righteous;
it is for their sins that he suffers.
12 Therefore I will assign him a share with the great,
he will divide the spoil with the mighty,
for having exposed himself to death
and being counted among the sinners,
while actually bearing the sin of many
and interceding for the offenders.”

Yeeshuwa` was not just anyone. He was virgin-born through the power of haRuwach haQodesh 'Elohiym! He was a son of David through Miryam, his mother, a descendant of Natan (Luke 3) instead of Shlomoh because of the curse that Yirmeyah put on Yhuwyaaqiym the king for the cutting and burning of God's Word within Yirmeyah's first scroll. (Jeremiah 36:30-31).

Yosef, Yeeshuwa`s stepfather, was a son of David through Shlomoh. Thus, Yeeshuwa` was not only a physical descendant of David, but He was the rightful heir of the kingship through his stepfather who adopted Him as his own son (Matthew 1).

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Calling out thier hypocrisy, even if true, would not have been legal justification for the death penalty. The death penalty requires blasphemy, murder, adultery, incest, violating shabbat or enslaving an Israelite. I'm not saying corruption can't happen, but they would have to justify it to a lot of people. Falsely accusing someone of a death penalty crime itself carried the death penalty.

Hmph. They didn't have to justify their murder to anyone! The Sanhedrin were in control of Yhudah! They had the backing of the priesthood under BOTH high priests, and they had the force of the people by many plants among them calling for the death of the Messiah, encouraging them all to yell, "Crucify him!"

17 hours ago, Slibhin said:

Finding a "right wing slant" is called false balance and is a logical fallacy. Sometimes facts just don't align with what we want to be true, and just because someone is a "liberal" doesn't mean they are lying, or more likely to lie. In fact study after study has shown that people who only watch right wing news such as Fox or OAN are more misinformed then those who watch no news. I'm not saying this as some endorsement for CNN or whatever... I think all American news is junk food garbage.

If I  came off as attacking you for not knowing my educational background it wasn't my intention. I just wanted you to be aware of my multimedia training.

I agree with your assessment of our "news."

[Neighbor]

10 minutes ago, Slibhin said:

This thread is getting seriously derailed. If you want to discuss the Messiah, Torah and Judaism I suggest splitting into a new thread.

Every thread is part and parcel of discussion about and sharing of Messiah.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Slibhin said:

This thread is getting seriously derailed. If you want to discuss the Messiah, Torah and Judaism I suggest splitting into a new thread.

Shalom, Slibhin.

Why? Contrary to opinion, we don't HATE the Palestinian people! We only HATE their cause called "Hamas," which stands for "Ḥarakat al-Muqāwama al-Islāmiyya, the ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’." So, when they have formed massive forces against Israel, the organization must be eliminated. We'd prefer that could be done peacefully, but radical (root) terrorism and attacks upon the Jews cannot be allowed to continue.

Roots must be uprooted, and that is a process that disturbs the soil, and may involve losing some of the plants of a crop for the sake of saving the entire crop. We want to save as many of the innocents as possible, but the die-hard zealots of Hamas may have to go first. Some are so Jew-hating that they cannot be reasoned with!

If the Messiah were to return (or as you might believe, come for the first time), would He do less?

[Gabriel80]

 

@Starise mentioned 'trust in reporting'.  Who can we trust to get truthful information?

I believe we can trust NO ONE.  Not Israel, Not Hamas.  Certainly not the media in the US or around the world.

Fog of War always accompanies conflict between nations.  This sleight of hand is a weapon intentionally wielded by both sides of a war. 

 

A thought of mine-

Why not surrender?  Submit? (Hamas.)

That would be a sure way to:

A.) Stop the killing/ maiming/ starving of innocents 

B.) Gather international support for the claim of persecution or violations of war.

C.) In place of Hamas, other Palestinians should be able to negotiate "terms" for the surrender... Israel would be almost forced to accept them at this point.  

From my vantage, no one (globally speaking) is interested in seeking this currently.  Has anyone heard of that? I could be wrong here.

All I have heard is "cease fire" this and "genocide" that.  Those are NOT solutions to ending the war.  It appears that the world is not serious about anything but death and destruction and finger pointing. That is not surprising.

It can only be said that Hamas has high disregard for their own peoples.  And it can be said that Israel's government AGREES with Hamas regarding their animosity toward the Palestinians.

It's obvious that Hamas is NOT waging a war with the intent of winning... so why?  Nor was their opening salvo a strategy for victory.  Why would they do this to their people to say nothing of the injury to Israel last October. 

Why not submit? Surrender.  Hamas has control of that option. They can't control Israel but they can control their own actions.

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Gabriel80 said:

 

 

Why not submit? Surrender.  Hamas has control of that option. They can't control Israel but they can control their own actions.

 

 

 

Hi Gabriel,

Arafat worked it out well. It`s called deceit. He called the Arabs in Gaza and West bank `Palestinians` as though that is a nation. Then, he told his followers that always `lie, lie, lie.` The world will always support the underdog and that is why he kept his people poor. They had millions given to them, but they never helped their people. 

Also, no matter the cost even to their own people, the demonic hatred of Israel drives them to get rid of Israel.