The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Marilyn C]

13 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I hope to show these points above to be wrong in the friendliest terms to my esteemed sister. At first the arguments seem good, but will they stand scrutiny?

1. Anybody who is washed by the blood of Christ is a Christian
2. There is no record of them calling for deliverance. In Chapter 12:16-17 the EARTH helps them - not God
3. Christ as the Passover has everything to do with the Church. 1. Corinthians 5:7 says:

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1st Corinthians is written to ALL who call upon the Lord everywhere (1. Cor.1:1-2)

4. Palm fronds where to receive a King. Israel welcomed Jesus as King four days before PASSOVER - not Tabernacles. But when Jesus comes the second time they will also welcome "Him Who they pierced" and weep - indicating "the day of atonement where Israel must ALL afflict their souls"

5. According to Chapter 4 the place of the 24 Elders is heaven. So also the four Creatures. That means that this uncountable company had been raptured. But if it says that the passed through the Great Tribulation then it is obvious that they were raptured at the end of the Tribulation. Israel never go to heaven. They are gathered from the Nations in which they were dispersed. There is a resurrection for Israel but no rapture.

6. The grammar of verse 9 shows this uncountable Company "AFTER" the sealing of the 12 Tribes. According to Revelation 9:4 the sealing of the Jewish Remnant is to preserve them during the Great Tribulation. This company has no such seal. The grammar also says "OF all nations and tribes and tongues ... ". The word "OF" means "OUT OF". That is, they came out of all nations, the same statement as Ephesians 2:15 where the New Man is OUT OF "TWAIN" - 1. Israel and 2. the Nations. Further, in Genesis 18:18 and Deuteronomy 4:6 Israel is one of the Nations. The uncountable company has therefore ex-Israelites, but they are no longer known as such because the New Man has "no Jew, no Greek "(Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

Hi Ad Hoc,

Nice to chat again. 

1. Everyone who turns to God is washed by the blood of Jesus. However, not all know about His sacrifice.

The OT saints are called `the spirits of just/righteous men.` (Heb. 12: 23)

Those in the trib, are called `the nation of those who are saved,` (Rev. 21: 24) or offspring of Israel. (Rev. 12: 17) or firstfruits to God and the Lamb, (Rev. 14: 4) or those who had victory over the beast, his image, mark and name, (Rev. 15: 2).

The great multitude will no longer hunger, thirst or have great heat. This reveals how they died. And since they are depicted with white robes in heaven they died and called out to God. (Rev. 7: 14 - 17)

Our passover is symbolic for we do not celebrate our deliverance from Pharoah.

I was referring to the Palm branches of the Feast of Tabernacles not the feast when Jesus was hailed King.

The 24 elders represent the whole Body of Christ - crowned and around Christ`s throne. Only they have been promised that position. (Rev. 3: 21)

The great multitude as `the nations of those who are saved,` as God`s word says. (Rev. 21: 24) 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

I do find it interesting that no one bases any doctrines on the fact that "church" is also not mentioned in:

Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude.

If it's important to recognize that the word, "church," does not appear in certain chapters of one specific book, (Revelation), what does it mean that it also doesn't appear even once in ten entire books of the New Testament?

Should we exempt ourselves from worrying about anything written in those books, also? Perhaps, we can create just one more schism in the body of Christ and make a whole new doctrinal narrative based on the absence of this word. 

Fortunately, if one would dare read these chapters missing the word "church," one would see that the faithful in Christ are indeed mentioned frequently in regards to the tribulation and events taking place on the earth...

Contrary to that, it is most fascinating that the "church" is never mentioned in any references to heaven or included as any of the variety of heavenly population mentioned in those same chapters, either. Applying modern theological reasoning, the church doesn't ever seem to make it to heaven, at all...

Unless they are dead...................

 

Yes. And one would think such a large group, from all time, that walked the earth as pure as Jesus, would be lauded somewhere in the scriptures, much like the ones coming out from within GT, and those in Rev 20 that are rewarded with life and authority with Jesus for 1000 years. 

I see nothing about this group anywhere. 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, missmuffet said:

In Revelation 6:10 those are the tribulation Saints. These are people who went into the 7 year tribulation

and became Christians. They were killed for their faith in Christ.

Yes. The point being the pretrib doctrine doesn't allow for this. Pretrib states the entire 70th week is the wrath of God, pretrib further states no believer will ever experience the wrath of God[an immutable scriptural fact based on our Father's love for us]. Pretrib uses these concepts: no believer will experience the wrath of God and the 70th week is all the wrath of God, to justify a pretrib rapture. 

But then the massive contradiction arises as there are believers experiencing the wrath of God according to the two foundational concepts as mentioned above, and as you admit in your response. 

What you are saying in your response then is; the wrath of God is occurring, some people became believers, then God killed them.

So then the 70th week cannot all be the wrath of God, God doesn't kill His people. 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

At first glance people do think the great multitude are Christians, however they are not. Let`s look at some detail.

1. They come out of the great trib, and while they are dying of hunger, thirst &/or heat, (Rev. 7: 16) they call out to God who saves them. They are in God`s judgment time for the nations.

2. The Lamb title has to do with Israel, the Lord was their Passover Lamb. (For the B/C He was as a lamb sacrificed for us. We never had the feast of Passover.) So, this great multitude will be the `nations of the saved` under Israel`s rule on the New Earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

3. Notice that they have Palm branches in their hands, which represents the Feast of Tabernacles. That Feast will be fulfilled on the New Earth when Israel rules over the nations. Remember that people held Palm branches when Jesus rode into Jerusalem. It was for that Feast. 

4. They are not believers in the Body of Christ for we are called out (Ekklesia) of Israel and called out of the nations. This great multitude are of the nations and keep their national identity. (Rev. 7: 9)

That's not even close. It is said of this group:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This is the elect. This shows they are pure spiritual beings translated into the eternal kingdom. 

You are right about one thing, these are real believers, not Christians.

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's not even close. It is said of this group:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This is the elect. This shows they are pure spiritual beings translated into the eternal kingdom. 

You are right about one thing, these are real believers, not Christians.

Hi Diaste,

Admittedly, I am unsure who or what age these tribulation saints under the altar represent. My thoughts are wavering with no solid convictions. From a pretribulation standpoint, Revelation Chapter Six starts the Tribulation judgments. The seven-year countdown started with the Antichrist confirming the seven-year covenant. Three popular views I have considered:

• They are all those who accepted Christ (Jew & Gentile) in the Tribulation, did not recant their faith, and were martyred.
• The nation of Israel.
• These souls represent Christians who were martyred during periods of persecution, such as under Nero, Domitian, Islam, the Catholic crusades, Inquisitions, etc.

The pretribulation view argues the Resurrection and harpazo occur before the wrath of God starts. Christians are not appointed to experience the wrath of God. The whole seven years is the wrath of God, the Great Tribulation (last 3.5 years) is Tribulation and wrath never before seen or ever will be. If this view is factual, bullet point three can be eliminated, as these were Resurrected at the Rapture before the Tribulation began. These souls under the altar have not been resurrected, not having glorified bodies. That leaves us with two considerations (or more).

Bullet point #1: Revelation 6:10-11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Who are “them that dwell on the earth?” I suspect this is pointing to the historical Gentile kingdoms. I think it plausible that “their fellowservants and brethren” could be the two-thirds of the Jews that are slaughtered after the above is said during the Tribulation.  

Bullet point #2: Based on my current studies and thoughts (subject to change), I am contemplating these “souls under the altar” may be the OT prophets and others martyred. It appears to be the best fit for me thus far.

This would fulfill the promises given to Israel as a nation in the millennial reign and forever land grants. I think the OT saints will not be Resurrected until after the Lord’s second coming (part of the 1^st Resurrection). That the guests of the bride at the wedding feast (on earth) are the OT saints. Israel is not part of the marriage of the Lamb but attendees, as with the five foolish virgins (another disputed long topic).

Again, I may be incorrect in my exegesis, but it is worth exploring the various views and coming to our own beliefs and conclusions.

[Diaste]

47 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Diaste,

Admittedly, I am unsure who or what age these tribulation saints under the altar represent. My thoughts are wavering with no solid convictions. From a pretribulation standpoint, Revelation Chapter Six starts the Tribulation judgments. The seven-year countdown started with the Antichrist confirming the seven-year covenant. Three popular views I have considered:

• They are all those who accepted Christ (Jew & Gentile) in the Tribulation, did not recant their faith, and were martyred.
• The nation of Israel.
• These souls represent Christians who were martyred during periods of persecution, such as under Nero, Domitian, Islam, the Catholic crusades, Inquisitions, etc.

The pretribulation view argues the Resurrection and harpazo occur before the wrath of God starts. Christians are not appointed to experience the wrath of God. The whole seven years is the wrath of God, the Great Tribulation (last 3.5 years) is Tribulation and wrath never before seen or ever will be. If this view is factual, bullet point three can be eliminated, as these were Resurrected at the Rapture before the Tribulation began. These souls under the altar have not been resurrected, not having glorified bodies. That leaves us with two considerations (or more).

Bullet point #1: Revelation 6:10-11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Who are “them that dwell on the earth?” I suspect this is pointing to the historical Gentile kingdoms. I think it plausible that “their fellowservants and brethren” could be the two-thirds of the Jews that are slaughtered after the above is said during the Tribulation.  

Bullet point #2: Based on my current studies and thoughts (subject to change), I am contemplating these “souls under the altar” may be the OT prophets and others martyred. It appears to be the best fit for me thus far.

This would fulfill the promises given to Israel as a nation in the millennial reign and forever land grants. I think the OT saints will not be Resurrected until after the Lord’s second coming (part of the 1^st Resurrection). That the guests of the bride at the wedding feast (on earth) are the OT saints. Israel is not part of the marriage of the Lamb but attendees, as with the five foolish virgins (another disputed long topic).

Again, I may be incorrect in my exegesis, but it is worth exploring the various views and coming to our own beliefs and conclusions.

 There isn't much to go on, but I think what we do know is enough. 

We know they are killed for the word of God and their testimony of Jesus Christ. This is an important point. 

We read this in Rev 15:

And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name.

And this in Rev 20:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.

I see both of these as too similar to the following in Rev 6 to think they are other than the elect:

those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.

Conquering the beast and it's image is a repeated theme in Rev 15 and in Rev 20. Those conquerors are the one who stand beside the sea of glass and also live and reign with Jesus. And since that's true, then the ones slain for their testimony under the altar in Rev 6, and the ones beheaded for their testimony in Rev 20, are the same. 

This has to be the elect resisting the great pressure of the GT. The overarching idea is the war against the beast. That precludes the idea of anyone else outside that time frame except for the beheaded. People have been beheaded for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ over time. I'm convinced they are also part of:

those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.

the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God

 

[missmuffet]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. The point being the pretrib doctrine doesn't allow for this. Pretrib states the entire 70th week is the wrath of God, pretrib further states no believer will ever experience the wrath of God[an immutable scriptural fact based on our Father's love for us]. Pretrib uses these concepts: no believer will experience the wrath of God and the 70th week is all the wrath of God, to justify a pretrib rapture. 

But then the massive contradiction arises as there are believers experiencing the wrath of God according to the two foundational concepts as mentioned above, and as you admit in your response. 

What you are saying in your response then is; the wrath of God is occurring, some people became believers, then God killed them.

So then the 70th week cannot all be the wrath of God, God doesn't kill His people. 

This interpretation is your choice.

[AdHoc]

19 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Nice to chat again. 

1. Everyone who turns to God is washed by the blood of Jesus. However, not all know about His sacrifice.

The OT saints are called `the spirits of just/righteous men.` (Heb. 12: 23)

Those in the trib, are called `the nation of those who are saved,` (Rev. 21: 24) or offspring of Israel. (Rev. 12: 17) or firstfruits to God and the Lamb, (Rev. 14: 4) or those who had victory over the beast, his image, mark and name, (Rev. 15: 2).

The great multitude will no longer hunger, thirst or have great heat. This reveals how they died. And since they are depicted with white robes in heaven they died and called out to God. (Rev. 7: 14 - 17)

Our passover is symbolic for we do not celebrate our deliverance from Pharoah.

I was referring to the Palm branches of the Feast of Tabernacles not the feast when Jesus was hailed King.

The 24 elders represent the whole Body of Christ - crowned and around Christ`s throne. Only they have been promised that position. (Rev. 3: 21)

The great multitude as `the nations of those who are saved,` as God`s word says. (Rev. 21: 24) 

Hi, and yes ... nice to swap ideas again. We have quite some differing views on this uncountable company. I think, as you did not enter debate about my arguments, I'll leave them and  go back to the theme of the thread. @DeighAnnalso objected, so I'll ring her bell and answer you both here. Here is the text I alluded to. Matthew 24:37–44;

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Language is given by God to transmit ideas. It has rules. If the rules are ignored the idea is lost. I comment knowing that you both are well versed in English and both of quite some intellectual prowess. The verses preceding our text ar a parable. In Mathew 13 our Lord Jesus said that He spoke in parables so that only the Church would know the truth. The truth of the kingdom was to be withheld from Israel by the speaking in parables. The text after our text considers "servants" and "Virgins". These could, in no wise, be Israel or the Nations for they are enemies of Christ.

Basically, the text is not disputed in any way and it says what it says if you consider that it answers verse 3 and the three questions posed there. It would be of profit to consider that only FOUR of the Twelve came "privately" and asked those questions (Mk.13:3). This is significant because the text talks of some take and some left. Only 30% of the Apostles were shown the end times by Christ.

Next, the content of our Lord's answer to His "servants" and "Virgins" has no events except the Leaves of the Fig Tree blossoming. The content is almost exclusively MORAL. The just shall live by FAITH so besides this one event, the listener is to decide his/her course by their moral code. That is, how to serve at the field, at the mill, how to serve the Assembly, how to serve the Bridegroom and how to serve with God's Talents are the these. This is in stark contrast to verses 3 to 31. There, everything is Jewish and events are foretold. Here, the servant of the Lord lives in a sharply degraded world - the "Days LIKE those of Noah!". That is, God's preference would be to destroy all men off the face of the earth except those whose birth (or generation) was 100% human, AND who were RIGHTEOUS (Heb.11:7).

Next, the two at the Mill and Two in the field are a HOUSEHOLD. Being servants and Virgins agrees with verse 42 that the lord was "THEIR LORD". The harvest of the servants and virgins who had Jesus as "THEIR LORD" means that the "HOUSE" (or "household" in this case) IS THE CHURCH! The word "TAKEN" is not the same word as verse 39. There, (v.39) the Greek means "snatched like our sins on the cross were removed". And the Greek word for "Taken in verse 40 and verse 41 is "paralambano", which means; "taken with like and old and intimate acquaintance".

The "Household" has a "Goodman" - an overseer. Good or bad, the Overseer of the Household full of people who are servants and Virgins to THEIR Lord has NO CHANCE to anticipate the "Thief". NOBODY KNOWS, not even the Lord Jesus. No matter how diligent and how watchful the Household of God are, they will be surprised by the Thief. Some servants, and some Virgins will be secretly taken for God's Household and the result is "THE HOUSE IS BROKEN UP"!

If the langauge meant what it said, the ONLY explanation is that the Church is "BROKEN". And if the "Ekklesia" is a "GATHERING" and this gathering is BROKEN UP, IT CANNOT STILL BE HONESTLY CALLED "A GATHERING"! "ONE IS TAKEN AND ONE IS LEFT LEAVES NO OPTION EXCEPT THAT THE RAPTURE IS A SPLIT RAPTURE"  where ONE is Taken and ONE is left. This divides the household of God so it cannot honestly be called "the Ekklesia. And this situation remains throughout the Millennial Kingdom because the servants who do evil are CAST OUT and the diligent are to ENTER Christ's Kingdom.

The verses above are not obscure. They provide no mystery. They are simple and instructive if grammar and logic is followed.

Thanks for your consideration:

[Marilyn C]

43 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Hi, and yes ... nice to swap ideas again. We have quite some differing views on this uncountable company. I think, as you did not enter debate about my arguments,

Hi Ad Hoc,

You often say that about my answers. And I scratch my head because I think I have laid out mt response to what you say. What more can I do? I really don`t understand how you can say that, but open to you explaining.

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's not even close. It is said of this group:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This is the elect. This shows they are pure spiritual beings translated into the eternal kingdom. 

You are right about one thing, these are real believers, not Christians.

Diaste,

Believers are set in the Body of Christ. This great multitude are still OF the nations. We are called OUT of the nations, they are OF the nations. (Rev. 7: 9)