The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, abcdef said:

Context matters yes, definition matters also. This is a part of the problem I believe.

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First, the "church" is the kingdom of Israel. It began on Pentecost. It is a spiritual kingdom that is on this planet earth. John was in the kingdom in 85-96 AD ish, Rev 1:9.

The definition of the word "church" is often varied. For example, the 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3. They are called "churches" but are actually congregations of the same Kingdom. I try not to use the word "church" because it distorts the intended message.

So rather than say, Find the "church" in the Rev after Ch 4, we might better find it if we look for the kingdom, of Israel.

The kingdom is Israel. Gentiles are grafted into the family of Israel. But when reading the Revelation, the tendency is to think of the "church" as gentiles exclusively. When I think of the kingdom of Israel I must remember that the kingdom is centered on the children of Israel and not the gentile side of the kingdom.

Calling the "church" the kingdom of Israel centers the discussion on the Israel side of the kingdom instead of the gentile side.

So when we read the Revelation, the stories are centered on Israel kingdom and not the gentiles.

Rev 12 shows Jesus is born in 1 AD. He is caught up to heaven in 33 AD.

Then the woman flees into the wilderness. It is not the gentile side of the "kingdom" that flees in 70 AD ish, but it follows the children of Israel side of the kingdom that flees.

That fleeing ends when the children of Israel side of the Pentecost gospel kingdom return to control Jerusalem and end the times of the gentiles, Lk 21:24.

I agree, mostly.

7 hours ago, abcdef said:

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Second, the tribulation began when Rome invaded Israel in 63 BC. That is the 4th beast nation of Dan 7. Rev 1:9 also states that John in 85-96 AD is in the tribulation period.

John the Baptist, Jesus, John the Baptist, and the Apostiles all lived during the 4th beast tribulation period.

This means that the children of Israel who lived between 63 BC and the first resurrection were all from the tribulation period. Some were killed by the Dan 7, 4th beast Roman nation and some were betrayed by their of fellow Israelites. 

These are the martyrs in Rev 6:9-11. The call for justice is against Jerusalem and those who betrayed them. The answer is the 6th seal destruction of Jerusalem.

( Jesus came as God at the 70 AD destruction bring gentile armies to destroy Jerusalem, just as God had done in the past for their rejection of Him, but it wasn't a resurrection coming.)

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The OT saved are in heaven now, from the first resurrection with Jesus. 

No one from the 33 AD Pentecost gospel kingdom are there yet, they rise when Jesus comes. 

The Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel, the children of Israel side is seen as the 2 witnesses, the woman in Rev 12, being persecuted by the Dan 7 4th beast Roman nation in Rev 13, and being surrounded in Jerusalem by Magog in Rev 20.

 

And I here I do not agree. 

[angels4u]

10 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

Disputation Removed

 

I never say him accusing you,can you please stop accusing him falsely?

Just block him if you don't like what he's saying instead of telling people he doesn't make you feel safe, as I said where is he accusing you? Keep it personal and don't post slander about other members on the forum.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2024 by Michael37
Removal Of Public Disputation

[Patticats]

10 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

Disputation Removed

I saw all the comments that you both said to one another. You edited some of your comment. Just because someone wants a discussion doesn't mean they are trolling you. Just because someone doesn't have your view doesn't mean they are trolling you either. I don't see any indication to what you have said he was doing. I agree with Angel4U with her comment above this one. 

Edited November 16, 2024 by Michael37
Removal Of Public Disputation

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, angels4u said:

 

I never say him accusing you,can you please stop accusing him falsely?

Just block him if you don't like what he's saying instead of telling people he doesn't make you feel safe, as I said where is he accusing you? Keep it personal and don't post slander about other members on the forum.

 

 

Good answer angels. If a member on Worthy is making you feel uncomfortable or you feel that they are harassing you put them on ignore. Worthy has that option for your benefit. It is better than going back and forth with angry replies. There is enough grief in this world than having to deal with an unkind member on a Christian message board.

[abcdef]

On 11/15/2024 at 6:16 AM, Diaste said:

I agree, mostly.

Are the 2 witnesses Christians? If so, wouldn't they be in the kingdom (church)?

 

On 11/15/2024 at 6:16 AM, Diaste said:

And I here I do not agree. 

Rev 1:9, Says that John was a companion in tribulation and in the kingdom.

Doesn't that say that John is in the trib period?

Doesn't that say that the kingdom that John is a part of is in the tribulation in the 1st century?

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Dan 7 shows a terrible 4th beast, the Romans.

See how all of the heads are part of the Roman beast, extensions of the original 4th beast, still the 4th beast, but different forms of the beast.

We know that Rome invaded Israel in 63 BC and continued for centuries after that.

Is it so hard, to consider, that the time of Jacob's trouble, tribulation, was the time of the 4th beast beginning in 63 BC and continuing for centuries?

It would show that the events of the kingdom and the 4th beast were happening in the time of John in the 1st century.

It would also show that the events of the Revelation were happening to John and the kingdom. One example would be Rev 17 where John says that one head "is".

There were 5 heads past, it means that the beast nation was in John's past, present, and future.

Edited November 16, 2024 by abcdef

[tatwo]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

Perhaps…as silly as it may sound…we should see if we can agree on the actual “identity of the church”…which…if we can…should allow us to be able to establish the spiritual and scriptural standard of the matter at hand…“The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4”…among other things.  

One of the things I observed in this forum is the appearance of a number of different definitions for the “church.” There really is no way to have a constructive discussion about anything in the Kingdom of God if we do not have the “de facto Scriptural/spiritual standard” which has been clearly established…as a basis from which to discuss any matter really.

On top of that…the term “church” in any of its designations does not adequately depict the reality of “Christ…Head and Body”…when you consider the many descriptive scriptural terms such as…“Temple of God…Body of Christ…Bride of Christ…House of God…One New Man…Household of God…Kingdom of God…Christ…sons of God…dare I say…Man Child”…there may be more depending on your preference of translation.

Given these abundant scriptural designations of…“Christ…Head and Body”…doesn’t that render the necessity of the word “church” irrelevant in any context…really? Consider Paul in his description of the subject matter…emphasis mine…

“But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  (14)  For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  (15)  having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,  (16)  and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.  (17)  And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.  (18)  For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.  (19)  Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,  (20)  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,  (21)  in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,  (22)  in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:13-22 NKJV

Here in Paul…we see designations like…”in Christ Jesus…made both one… to create in Himself one new man from the two…both to God in one body… have access by one Spirit to the Father… fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God… the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord...in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

I don’t use the term “church” personally when referencing the “Christ”…it does not testify to the entirety of those “in Christ.” All the terms that Paul uses in those 9 verses paint a much more complete picture of what constitutes the reality that the Lord Yahshua is concerning Himself with…and what God the Father initially intended to bring forth from His creation.

This…“one new man…fellow citizens…members of the household of God…the building being fitted together…growing into the holy temple of the Lord…built together for a dwelling place of God…in the Spirit” is the only entity that anyone who considers themselves “sons of God” concern themselves with.

This “One New Man” is a “spiritual Man”…constituting the “dwelling place of God”…meaning…He will not be confined to the extents and limitations of creation…anymore than the Lord Yahshua Himself was...that is...once He is fully mature...this will be soon...He is Spirit! 

Now…for those who cannot see…“HIM”…in the book of Revelation…it is very likely that you cannot see…“HIM”…anywhere in Scripture. “HE”…is not the “church”…the “church” as a whole does not recognize Him…and rejects Him…this is what is referred to as the apostasy...the church is of another spirit.

Can we work from here?

Tatwo...:)

[abcdef]

On 11/9/2024 at 10:57 AM, Diaste said:

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

Jn 5:39, The OT saints also held the witness of Jesus in the scriptures.

Adam held the testimony, Gen 3:15.

Moses held the testimony of Jesus through the scriptures.

All those OT saints who held the scriptures were a testimony of Jesus.

John the Baptist held the testimony and was beheaded.

So those seen in heaven in the Revelation in the first century did hold the testimony of Jesus by speaking the scriptures.

Those OT saints, including beheaded John the Baptist, were resurrected by Jesus in 33 Ad. 

They are in heaven now.

[The Light]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

Then who are these people In Chapter 6?

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

They are those killed in the Great Tribulation.

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

They are not members of the mostly Gentile Church that is already in heaven. They are of the 12 tribes across the earth, which is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest. 

 

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

And what of these in Chapter 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

 “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

This looks a lot like any Sunday Church service all across the USA: praising God in the house of God. Not only that, these folks are wearing white robes and holding palm branches. That's most assuredly the body of believers, members of the church, the congregation. They came out of GT.

The great multitude is made of the Church which is mostly Gentiles and then there is a second harvest of who the 144,000 from the 12 tribes across the earth are first fruits. There are two folds or two raptures. The two folds will become one fold.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

 

After the dragon is cast down in Rev 12, who does he make war with?

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The only ones keeping the command and testimony are members of the church. Can't be any other group.

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman is Israel, and the seed of the woman is the 12 tribes across the earth. The become believers as God turns His attention to the people of Daniel during the 70th week. After the Church is raptured before the great tribulation, part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

On 11/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, Diaste said:

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

Just what the Word says. The Church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 until the end of Revelation.

Those brethren, saints, believers and other such names are referring to those of the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. The 70th week is when God will turn His attention to the people of Daniel. There are two raptures, two harvests, two folds just as the Word proclaims.

[The Light]

On 11/9/2024 at 10:35 AM, JoeCanada said:

I hear that argument all the time ... The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter

They must just regurgitate what some preacher has said, without actually reading Rev.

It's clear that the church is there throughout the BofR, except for the time when God pours out His Wrath against the unbelieving earth dwellers.

Church = bond-servants = brethren = saints = bride . These are found throughout the BofR to describe the "church" 

However, they are correct when they ascertain that the word ... the word "CHURCH" is absent after chapter 4 in Rev.

It's an extremely weak argument for their defense of a fundamentally flawed, (non-existant) doctrine. 

The reason the Church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 until the end of Revelation is because they are in heaven. Those brethren, saints etc are those of the 12 tribes across the earth as God will keep His promise to His Chosen. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes? It's because there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

On 11/9/2024 at 8:57 AM, Diaste said:

Are they not members of the Church, being slain for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ? They gave up their lives for Jesus. That makes them more a believer, more a member of the Church, than the simple Sunday church goer. And more are about to give to their lives for Jesus.

They are not members of the mostly Gentile Church that is already in heaven. They are of the 12 tribes across the earth, which is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest. 

There is no such thing as the Gentile Church. That's some doctrine associated with the dispensationalists and replacement theologians, a doctrine not only do I reject, but so does scripture. 

Where is the identification of this group as 'not members of the mostly Gentile church'? Paul says,

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Which truth cancels replacement and dispensation, both doctrinal heresy.