The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[ARGOSY]

 

Just for you to meditate on, scriptures show that at the second coming there will certainly be a resurrection known as the first resurrection, the angels at that time will gather the elect (elect means saints/Christians) as Jesus is seen in the clouds (Matthew 24/Mark 13). This will occur at a loud trumpet call (Matthew 24). This is second coming is described as a thief in the night.

 

 

Actually, the "elect" that will be gathered is Israel. The Church will be coming with Jesus in the clouds.

 

 

Thats just an assumption of pre-tribs, but the usage of the biblical word "elect" relates to all the saints, not Jewish saints, neither tribulation saints:

 

Colossians 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering

 

 

 

 

Paul wrote that letter to all the saints in Collosse, not just Jewish saints.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

Just for you to meditate on, scriptures show that at the second coming there will certainly be a resurrection known as the first resurrection, the angels at that time will gather the elect (elect means saints/Christians) as Jesus is seen in the clouds (Matthew 24/Mark 13). This will occur at a loud trumpet call (Matthew 24). This is second coming is described as a thief in the night.

 

 

Actually, the "elect" that will be gathered is Israel. The Church will be coming with Jesus in the clouds.

 

 

Thats just an assumption of pre-tribs, but the usage of the biblical word "elect" relates to all the saints, not Jewish saints, neither tribulation saints:

 

Colossians 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering

 

 

 

 

Paul wrote that letter to all the saints in Collosse, not just Jewish saints.

 

 

The Jews were the elect of God before the Church, and when the Church is removed, the Jew will revert to the elect again, during the Tribulation age, where God has a special plan for them.

[ARGOSY]

 

The church will be raptured at the second coming:

 

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

 

Its strange why pre-tribs do not like to call the rapture a "coming" when the bible is quite fine with describing every rapture description as occurring at the coming of the Lord/Christ. Pre-tribs should admit that they believe the rapture is at the second coming (its described as a coming by the bible) and then introduce a third coming for their day of the Lord event.

I agree: the rapture will be His second coming. His coming on the white horse will be His THIRD coming.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Aaah, the first pre-trib I've heard that will admit to three comings. Yes I know you believe Jesus doesn't land on earth at the second coming, but as I pointed out, the bible does describe this as a coming.  

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Paul wrote that letter to all the saints in Collosse, not just Jewish saints.

 

 

The Jews were the elect of God before the Church, and when the Church is removed, the Jew will revert to the elect again, during the Tribulation age, where God has a special plan for them.

 

 

Sorry , I edited my post after reading your post more clearly.  Why do pre-tribs choose to split the resurrection into two resurrections, on what biblical basis do you base your theory that the elect are gathered twice? Firstly the church elect, then the Jewish elect.

[ARGOSY]

 

God will certainly NOT gather all trumpets after the "last" trump at the rapture, so there can never, ever, be another trumpet blast. That is not His intent in this verse. His intent is Paul's "last trump" is the last IN A SERIES, just as the 7th in Revelation is the last of a series. These are DIFFERENT series and not in any way related.

 

2 Thes. Says we, the bride of Christ - the one restraining the man of sin from being revealed - will be "departed" or "taken out of the way," so that the man of sin can be revealed in His time, so he can stand in the temple and declare he is god.

 

The gathering by angels in Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the rapture. It is God gathering all of Israel BACK to Israel. There is literally nothing in that passage to even hint it is the rapture except to say it is a gathering.

 

 

 

I never knew of any series of trumpets before the tribulation, have you got any verses that indicate it?  Of course its easy to justify one's position about anything prophetic/symbolic but its certainly not obvious that there are other important last trumpets before the well known series of 7 trumpet blasts.

 

Regarding 2 Thess 2, why does your view on the restrainer (through the rapture) being removed before the revealing contradict the earlier verse that says we will only be gathered (raptured) after the revealing? That contradiction makes me think you have defined the restrainer incorrectly.

 

Your assumption about the gathering of Matthew 24 is merely an assumption. You need to put forward some evidence why this gathering is not the first resurrection that occurs at Rev 20 also at the end of the tribulation. Daniel 12:1-2 also mentions the resurrection of ALL in the book at the end of the tribulation, are these resurrections separate post-trib events to your post-trib gathering of the elect? 

 

You know that the post-tribulation coming has a first resurrection of Rev 20 and Daniel 12:1-2 which occurs at the end of the trib, and you know that there is a final trumpet blast at the this coming, and you know that this post-tribulation coming has angels and Jesus in the clouds.

 

WHY then do you see the rapture and resurrection of  1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 as earlier?? On what scriptural basis do you regard these events as earlier  when they sound so similar to the first resurrection/gathering of the elect by the angels at the second coming??

[ARGOSY]

 

Paul tells us his rapture will come as a SUDDENLY, when no one expects it, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. It is NOT "the day of the Lord" but is the trigger for the start of the Day.  In Revelation we can easily see it is before the 6th seal, which is the beginning of His wrath.

 

Jesus was the very first person to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. Then later the dead in Christ will be the second group to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. There are only TWO resurrections; one for the just and one for the unjust a thousand years later. Therefore ALL the righteous will be a part of the "first" resurrection; just not all at the same time. Even the two witnesses will be a part of this resurrection, IN THEIR time.

 

There is not even one hint in Rev. 19 that there is a resurrection at His coming.

 

Jesus comes for His bride (Paul's rapture) as a thief in the night, meaning no one will know the exact time. Since His coming for the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord, then the DAY also comes as a thief in the night. 7 plus years later, when Jesus comes on His white horse, AGAIN He will come as a thief, meaning NO ONE will know the exact time. However, in His coming FOR His saints, He remains hidden in a cloud, while at His coming on the white horse, He will literally LIGHT UP the world with His coming.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Hi LAMAD, 

 

Just responding to the rest of your post, where does Paul say the rapture will come suddenly when no one expects it? It will be FAST (in the twinkling of eye) but when is it unexpected? Please quote your verse for this. The only surprise and/or thief in the night verses I know of relate to the second coming, which is a surprise for the unprepared.

 

Its interesting how you stagger the first resurrection, when Daniel 12:1-2 says all written in the book will be resurrected at the time of the death of the antichrist. I believe you contradict scripture here.

 

In Rev 20 there is the first resurrection. It occurs at the end of the tribulation.

 

. Yes Jesus does come as a thief in the night for his bride , but all verses about this thief in the night are timed at the day of the Lord, and do not occur at an earlier rapture. Unless you can show me any thief in the night/surprise verses associated with the rapture?

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Actually, the "elect" that will be gathered is Israel. The Church will be coming with Jesus in the clouds.

 

 

But that presupposes that Christ gathering His Church occurs prior to the 'day of the Lord', when God's Word does not speak of but one time of Christ's return, which is on 'the day of the Lord'.

 

In 2 Thess.2 Apostle Paul used the phrase 'day of the Lord' when speaking of the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. It was translated to "day of Christ" in the KJV, when the Greek word for Christ is not there in the NT manuscripts.

 

The 'day of the Lord' is also the timing when the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah will be gathered back together to the holy lands. And that is... the day of Christ's return to gather His Church too.

 

"when God's Word does not speak of but one time of Christ's return, which is on 'the day of the Lord'. "

 

Why would you say this when it is simply NOT TRUE? Go back and read 1 Thes. 5 again and again and again until you get it. There Paul tells us that the rapture is what TRIGGERS the Day of the Lord. And Paul is very clear that that is a COMING of the Lord. The truth is, the Bible certainly speaks of two more returns of Christ. One will be IN the Day of the Lord, but the first will be the trigger for the Day.

 

Did you ever wonder what Paul's "sudden destruction" is, that will catch ALL on the earth as a snare? This sudden destruction cannot be separated from the dead in Christ rising and those alive being caught up. It is the dead in Christ rising that causes a mighty, worldwide earthquake, and this earthquake IS Paul's sudden destruction. So while the righteous get "salvation" and get raptured, the sinners get the sudden destruction. Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the start of the Day of the Lord, and God's wrath. He goes on to say that God did not set any appointment for the righteous with His wrath. Notice in Mat. 27 "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened gives us a strong hint that when the long dead are resurrected, it causes an earthquake. If you will notice, when the two witnesses are raised, there was a great earthquake then too. When the dead in Christ are resurrected, it will cause a worldwide earthquake.

 

This sudden destruction earthquake is found at the 6th seal in Revelation. It is no accident that John then saw the raptured church in heaven in Rev. 7, just after the 6th seal.

 

In 2 Thes. 2, they THOUGHT they were IN the day of the Lord, when, in fact, they were not. They were very upset, because Paul had taught them of a PRETRIB rapture, and they thought they had MISSED it. Paul's method of correcting their thinking was to show them how to know for SURE when someone would be IN the Day of the Lord. If one sees the man of sin revealed and enter the temple and declare he is god, that is PROOF POSITIVE that the day of the Lord had started and one is IN it. However, there is someone restraining this revealing, and first, before he can be revealed, that one restraining must be taken out of the way. If you will notice, in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED (in Paul's argument) so in 3a the one restraining MUST BE taken out of the way. In fact the first translators into English translated apostasia as the departing. It is the best translation. Paul is not telling us the gathering is IN the day of the Lord at all; he is telling us that the departing must come FIRST, and then the day of the Lord will come. He did not change his mind from his first letter.

 

LAMAD

Edited July 16, 2014 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Sorry, two posts.

 

LAMAD

 

Edited July 16, 2014 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

Paul tells us his rapture will come as a SUDDENLY, when no one expects it, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. It is NOT "the day of the Lord" but is the trigger for the start of the Day.  In Revelation we can easily see it is before the 6th seal, which is the beginning of His wrath.

 

Jesus was the very first person to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. Then later the dead in Christ will be the second group to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. There are only TWO resurrections; one for the just and one for the unjust a thousand years later. Therefore ALL the righteous will be a part of the "first" resurrection; just not all at the same time. Even the two witnesses will be a part of this resurrection, IN THEIR time.

 

There is not even one hint in Rev. 19 that there is a resurrection at His coming.

 

Jesus comes for His bride (Paul's rapture) as a thief in the night, meaning no one will know the exact time. Since His coming for the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord, then the DAY also comes as a thief in the night. 7 plus years later, when Jesus comes on His white horse, AGAIN He will come as a thief, meaning NO ONE will know the exact time. However, in His coming FOR His saints, He remains hidden in a cloud, while at His coming on the white horse, He will literally LIGHT UP the world with His coming.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Hi LAMAD, 

 

Just responding to the rest of your post, where does Paul say the rapture will come suddenly when no one expects it? It will be FAST (in the twinkling of eye) but when is it unexpected? Please quote your verse for this. The only surprise and/or thief in the night verses I know of relate to the second coming, which is a surprise for the unprepared.

 

Its interesting how you stagger the first resurrection, when Daniel 12:1-2 says all written in the book will be resurrected at the time of the death of the antichrist. I believe you contradict scripture here.

 

In Rev 20 there is the first resurrection. It occurs at the end of the tribulation.

 

. Yes Jesus does come as a thief in the night for his bride , but all verses about this thief in the night are timed at the day of the Lord, and do not occur at an earlier rapture. Unless you can show me any thief in the night/surprise verses associated with the rapture?

 

There is a vast difference in a "macro" scripture as in an Old Testament prophecy and a micro scripture in the New Testament. It would be compared to looking at a distant mountain range through a telescope. One could only see the peaks of the mountains and know nothing of the valleys inbetween. When we have a microscope view of the end as in Revelation, we must form our doctrine there and not from a telescope view from Daniel. John tells us in very plain language that there will be a 1000 years period of time between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the sinner. Since this seems to contradict your take on Daniel, then perhaps we need to rethink what Daniel meant. Could that scripture be taken differently? John seems to contradict Jesus too, where Jesus said that an hour was coming when ALL in the graves would rise. So how do we reconcile that from Revelation? It is very simple: there WILL BE an hour when the just rise, and there will be an hour when the unjust rise - but it will be a DIFFERENT hour.  Also note, I am not the one "staggering" the first resurrection. Common sense and the word of God tells us that Jesus rose LONG before Rev. 20. It also shows us that the two witnesses will rise before Rev. 20. So it is the very word of God that "staggers" the resurrection. Revelation 20 tells us that there will be only TWO resurrections; one for the just and one for the unjust. It really does not say that there would be no resurrections in chapter 19, 18, 17, 16, etc. People read that into the text when it is simply not there.

 

If we read 1 Thes. 4 & 5 carefully, Paul tells us there is a SUDDENLY coming. That sudden event will be the dead in Christ rising. This sudden event will happen when no one expects it, as a thief in the night. It will come when people are living in peace and safety, quite like today.  When this sudden event happens and the dead in Christ rise, it will cause a mighty, worldwide earthquake. That earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction" that will catch ALL on the earth as a snare. Paul then tells us this sudden destruction will be the beginning of God's wrath. The earthquake will be the same earthquake as the 6th seal in Revelation. This sudden event of Paul's rapture will come as a surprise and SHOCK to the world. Where is there any place that tells us exactly when Jesus will come for Paul's rapture? Paul tells us "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." this comes just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse. It is the sudden destruction earthquake that begins the day of the Lord and that earthquake, caused by the dead in Christ rising, is what will hit suddenly, like a thief in the night. NO ONE will be expecting this. NO ONE will know when.

 

Yes, I agree, when Jesus comes on His white horse, there is the third time He comes, and again it will be as a thief in the night and no one will know when. They will know when the 70th week ends, because there will be the world's worst earthquake then. But Jesus will remain in heaven for the marriage and marriage supper before He leaves heaven WITH His Bride.

 

LAMAD

Edited July 16, 2014 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

God will certainly NOT gather all trumpets after the "last" trump at the rapture, so there can never, ever, be another trumpet blast. That is not His intent in this verse. His intent is Paul's "last trump" is the last IN A SERIES, just as the 7th in Revelation is the last of a series. These are DIFFERENT series and not in any way related.

 

2 Thes. Says we, the bride of Christ - the one restraining the man of sin from being revealed - will be "departed" or "taken out of the way," so that the man of sin can be revealed in His time, so he can stand in the temple and declare he is god.

 

The gathering by angels in Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the rapture. It is God gathering all of Israel BACK to Israel. There is literally nothing in that passage to even hint it is the rapture except to say it is a gathering.

 

 

 

I never knew of any series of trumpets before the tribulation, have you got any verses that indicate it?  Of course its easy to justify one's position about anything prophetic/symbolic but its certainly not obvious that there are other important last trumpets before the well known series of 7 trumpet blasts.

 

Regarding 2 Thess 2, why does your view on the restrainer (through the rapture) being removed before the revealing contradict the earlier verse that says we will only be gathered (raptured) after the revealing? That contradiction makes me think you have defined the restrainer incorrectly.

 

Your assumption about the gathering of Matthew 24 is merely an assumption. You need to put forward some evidence why this gathering is not the first resurrection that occurs at Rev 20 also at the end of the tribulation. Daniel 12:1-2 also mentions the resurrection of ALL in the book at the end of the tribulation, are these resurrections separate post-trib events to your post-trib gathering of the elect? 

 

You know that the post-tribulation coming has a first resurrection of Rev 20 and Daniel 12:1-2 which occurs at the end of the trib, and you know that there is a final trumpet blast at the this coming, and you know that this post-tribulation coming has angels and Jesus in the clouds.

 

WHY then do you see the rapture and resurrection of  1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 as earlier?? On what scriptural basis do you regard these events as earlier  when they sound so similar to the first resurrection/gathering of the elect by the angels at the second coming??

 

If we study the Old Testament, it seems several of the Hebrew feasts included trumpet blasts. Just in the feast of Trumpets, there must be a hundred trumpet sounds, and at different times, different trumpet sounds. From what I read, to END the feast of trumpets they blew one long trumpet blast they called "the last trump." So at that feast there is a series of trumpet blasts.

 

As I study Paul's writings, I am convinced of two things: first, He understood everything He wrote about. Second, he was certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit as He wrote. He never got to read John's book of Revelation. Therefore he knew NOTHING of the 7 trumpets in Revelation. It is extremely doubtful that God revealed what was in Revelation to Paul also. I really don't think Paul knew anything of a future series of 7 trumpets that would come in the future Day of the Lord. What Paul knew was that the rapture would come "at the last trump." Did He understand what that phrase meant? Did He associate it with the feast of trumpets or some other feast? We will just have to ask him when we get there!

 

I think you are mistaken: there is no verse that says " we will only be gathered (raptured) after the revealing." Please show us the verse you get this from? When I read that passage, I see that Paul sets the theme of the passage as about the rapture or gathering. Yet, the way most people read it, there is no "gathering" or rapture unless they think "rapture" when they see "the Day of the Lord." I don't see rapture when I see the day of the Lord. I see the rapture as the trigger for the day of the Lord. The day is His wrath, and Paul explains well that his rapture takes us up into the air before His wrath hits in the sudden destruction that will catch all who are left behind as a snare.

 

Make no mistake, if words mean anything at all (verses 6-8) , the restrainer is "taken out of the way" in verse 3a, simply because in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED.  I don't see a "falling away" as a restrainer being "taken out of the way." When I study the compound word "apostasia," is see in "apo"  a part of a whole removed from the whole, where they are standing. Next, I see in verse six where Paul wrote "NOW YOU KNOW...." I puzzled over that for a long time, wondering WHY Paul would write those three words. I am convinced he wrote them because he had just told them who the restrainer was, but he did it in a way not at first seen.

 

Posttrib believers certainly jump on the Mat. 24 gathering as Paul's rapture when there is not one word of evidence that the rapture is what is being shown. On the contrary, it does not seem by its very discription to be Paul's rapture. When we are transformed into resurrection bodies, we will fly as the angels fly, so no need for angels gathering us. Neither does Paul give any hint of angels gathering us. Next, Paul is clear that HIS gathering comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, which we find in Revelation happens at the 6th seal, LONG before the end of the 70th week. I don't think it is an assumption at all to say the Mat. 24 gathering is NOT Paul's rapture. It may be an assumption that it is referring to the gathering of the Jews. However, there are scriptures where God tells us he will gather the Hebrews back to their land.

 

Daniel's words about the resurrection was certainly pointed only to Old Testament saints, for at that time that is all there was.  I don't think it is wise to form doctrine from an Old Testament verse when we have a hundred times more verses on the same subject in the New Testament. We can certainly fill in missing pieces from the Old Testament, but John writes SO MUCH about the end, we must form our doctrine there. Daniel certainly knew the day would come when HE would be resurrected and "stand in his lot."

 

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Daniel takes two verses to cover what John takes several chapters to cover. "At that time" is speaking of the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. In Revelation those days will begin at the midpoint and go some unknown days into the last 42 months of the Beast's authority. So in Revelation, the days of GT will begin at the end of chapter 14 or the beginning of chapter 15. John shows us there will be a resurrection at the end of the 70th week becuase those beheaded are seen in heaven ruling with Jesus. However, John really never pinpoints an exact time for this resurrection. People just assume it happens in chapter 20. That is not a wise assumption.  "Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." there is really NO TIMING given for this statement. This is what I call a "macro" verse. It tells us of a resurrection, but gives NO DETAILS. For details we must get into the New Testament.

 

I am convinced that PAUL was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture of the church. Before he wrote, no one knew anything more than what was in the Old Testament. Therefore, if we wish to know about his rapture, we are going to have to study 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and 1 Cor. 15. Is there any timing to be found in those scriptures? Certainly there is, if we study diligently.

 

We seem to disagree much on exactly what the "day of the Lord" is. I read in the Old Covenant that it is a DARK day, while Jesus coming will be BRIGHT. I understand the Day of the Lord to be an extended period of time, starting at the 6th seal signs for said Day, and continuing on through the 70th week and then on to the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. If you see it as a 24 hour day, I thiink you are mistaken. I read that the Day of the Lord is when God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world. In Joel, writing of the Day, said the cattle were perplexed because they had no pasture, for the fire had devoured the grass of the pasture. I see the first trumpet judgment as the fulfillment of that. So I see John in perfect agreement with Joel that the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. I read in Isaiah 2, writing of the Day of the Lord,  of a great earthquake and it seems John almost copied Isaiah word for word at the 6th seal about men crying for the rocks to cover them for fear of the Day. Again John seems to be in perfect accord that the Day of the Lord comes EARLY in the book of Revelation. Therefore I see the day of the Lord starting at the 6th seal and continuing on through the entire 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial.

 

LAMAD