The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

Paul made one mistake. He believed in an imminent second coming and that he and the Thessalonians would be there, that was 2000 years ago and he was clearly wrong. Do you think Paul made a second mistake when Paul believed in relief for current persecution only at the second coming, not an earlier rapture? Was Paul doctrinally incorrect when he said the following:

 

 

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Paul was not promising them a rapture to end their troubles, Paul was promising a second coming, a day of wrath.

 

 

I don't believe Paul made a mistake by preaching about Christ's second coming, and I don't see that as man's doctrine of Imminence. The reason is because Paul made it clear the order and events leading up to Christ's return and our gathering, and it all accords with what God gave through His OT prophets.

 

 

 

I hear you. I was just pointing out that Paul thought the second coming would occur in the his lifetime. It is correct to think that way, and expect Christ sooner than later. So maybe "mistake" wasn't the right word to use concerning his positive expectation.

[Salty]

 

 

I hear you. I was just pointing out that Paul thought the second coming would occur in the his lifetime. It is correct to think that way, and expect Christ sooner than later. So maybe "mistake" wasn't the right word to use concerning his positive expectation.

 

 

You know, I hear that idea a lot, but I don't believe Paul thought Christ's return to be imminent, for he was a scholar and well knew the events required to occur first. Per Apostle John he may have had a better clue, because he knew the 7th beast was still yet to come per Rev.17.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

I hear you. I was just pointing out that Paul thought the second coming would occur in the his lifetime. It is correct to think that way, and expect Christ sooner than later. So maybe "mistake" wasn't the right word to use concerning his positive expectation.

 

 

You know, I hear that idea a lot, but I don't believe Paul thought Christ's return to be imminent, for he was a scholar and well knew the events required to occur first. Per Apostle John he may have had a better clue, because he knew the 7th beast was still yet to come per Rev.17.

 

 

Fair enough.  Apparently it was prophesied that he was to be martyred.  So when he made statements like this about the second coming, it could have been just for the purpose of explaining the order of events, rather than being specific about his personal participation in the resurrection of the living rather than his actual resurrection as a deceased believer:

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

3. At the time of the Rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

10. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

 

Rev 20 says the first resurrection occurs to those who have been martyred by the beast at the end of the tribulation, not earlier.

 

Daniel 12:1-2 describes the resurrection of ALL in the book at the time of the death of the antichrist, which is at the end of the tribulation.

 

So I believe you are incorrect with those two statements.

 

6. The rapture is imminent, whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

 

Verses about the thief in the night and imminence context are normally in clear second coming context, not in the context of an earlier rapture.  Unless you can show me otherwise.

 

Mark 13:34-36, Matthew 24:39-44, 1 Thessalonians 5:2,3

 

Imminence and surprise are associated with the second coming.

 

 

I agree there is what looks like a discrepancy. However, I can learn from the passages you have provided that there will be further resurrections of certain people, and I do believe that is for the sheep and goats judgment that Jesus Christ will perform at the onset of the Millennial Reign.

 

 

Thanks, for looking into this. Yes we can never stop learning.

 

Just for you to meditate on, scriptures show that at the second coming there will certainly be a resurrection known as the first resurrection, the angels at that time will gather the elect (elect means saints/Christians) as Jesus is seen in the clouds (Matthew 24/Mark 13). This will occur at a loud trumpet call (Matthew 24). This is second coming is described as a thief in the night.

 

 

Actually, the "elect" that will be gathered is Israel. The Church will be coming with Jesus in the clouds.

[iamlamad]

Thanks RT,

Let me throw out what I think today and please give me your feedback, criticism, or amen.

 

3. Rapture of SOME believers, THOSE THAT ARE WORTHY  believers;   (Luke 21:36)

5. Raptured Saints go to heaven while the final 7 years are played out

1. Believers are not appointed to wrath (the entire 70th week is the wrath of God)  Praise the Lord! True.

2. Gods wrath begins after the 6th seal (rev 6:16-17) Yes, right where John tells us.  trumpets begin Gods wrath

TRUMPET JUDGMENTS COME IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE WEEK

4. A/c does his thing and if you take the mark, you are DOOMED TO HELL. If not, you WILL BE martyred

7. Martyred tribulation saints resurrected some time before or at Christ's second coming to earth and specially acknowledged

6. Jesus returns AFTER  the end of 70th week with his saints to kick some booty. Satan bound for 1000 yrs (.

Parable of the tares played out here as Jesus is descending.

8. Sheep and goats judgment to see who will enter the millennial kingdom

9. Christ rules for 1000 years

10. Satan loosed and shockingly, wrecks havoc again

11. Bye bye satan for good. Lack of fire time for eternity this time.

Okay, let me have it. Where do you differ and why?

Thanks

[iamlamad]

The church will be raptured at the second coming:

 

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

 

Its strange why pre-tribs do not like to call the rapture a "coming" when the bible is quite fine with describing every rapture description as occurring at the coming of the Lord/Christ. Pre-tribs should admit that they believe the rapture is at the second coming (its described as a coming by the bible) and then introduce a third coming for their day of the Lord event.

I agree: the rapture will be His second coming. His coming on the white horse will be His THIRD coming.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

3. At the time of the Rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

10. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

 

Rev 20 says the first resurrection occurs to those who have been martyred by the beast at the end of the tribulation, not earlier.

 

Daniel 12:1-2 describes the resurrection of ALL in the book at the time of the death of the antichrist, which is at the end of the tribulation.

 

So I believe you are incorrect with those two statements.

 

6. The rapture is imminent, whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

 

Verses about the thief in the night and imminence context are normally in clear second coming context, not in the context of an earlier rapture.  Unless you can show me otherwise.

 

Mark 13:34-36, Matthew 24:39-44, 1 Thessalonians 5:2,3

 

Imminence and surprise are associated with the second coming.

 

 

I agree there is what looks like a discrepancy. However, I can learn from the passages you have provided that there will be further resurrections of certain people, and I do believe that is for the sheep and goats judgment that Jesus Christ will perform at the onset of the Millennial Reign.

 

 

Thanks, for looking into this. Yes we can never stop learning.

 

Just for you to meditate on, scriptures show that at the second coming there will certainly be a resurrection known as the first resurrection, the angels at that time will gather the elect (elect means saints/Christians) as Jesus is seen in the clouds (Matthew 24/Mark 13). This will occur at a loud trumpet call (Matthew 24). This is second coming is described as a thief in the night.

 

In addition to these post-trib facts, you believe there will be an earlier pre-trib resurrection before the first resurrection, which is also a gathering of the saints, and a  last trumpet before the trumpet call, an earlier thief in the night before the second coming thief in the night. Some pre-tribs also believe in a silent rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4 as a loud shout and the voice of the archangel. 

 

So you appear to believe in two closely duplicated events, even when 2 Thess 1 says we get our relief only at the second coming, and 2 Thess 2 says we are only gathered after the antichrist is revealed.  With all this counting against the pre-trib belief, on what grounds would you place the rapture verses of 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 into an earlier rapture? Even the bible chooses to associate these two rapture events with the coming of Christ, which is a phrase pre-tribs do not like to associate with the rapture even though the bible makes no such distinction.

 

God will certainly NOT gather all trumpets after the "last" trump at the rapture, so there can never, ever, be another trumpet blast. That is not His intent in this verse. His intent is Paul's "last trump" is the last IN A SERIES, just as the 7th in Revelation is the last of a series. These are DIFFERENT series and not in any way related.

 

2 Thes. Says we, the bride of Christ - the one restraining the man of sin from being revealed - will be "departed" or "taken out of the way," so that the man of sin can be revealed in His time, so he can stand in the temple and declare he is god.

 

The gathering by angels in Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the rapture. It is God gathering all of Israel BACK to Israel. There is literally nothing in that passage to even hint it is the rapture except to say it is a gathering.

 

Paul tells us his rapture will come as a SUDDENLY, when no one expects it, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. It is NOT "the day of the Lord" but is the trigger for the start of the Day.  In Revelation we can easily see it is before the 6th seal, which is the beginning of His wrath.

 

Jesus was the very first person to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. Then later the dead in Christ will be the second group to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. There are only TWO resurrections; one for the just and one for the unjust a thousand years later. Therefore ALL the righteous will be a part of the "first" resurrection; just not all at the same time. Even the two witnesses will be a part of this resurrection, IN THEIR time.

 

There is not even one hint in Rev. 19 that there is a resurrection at His coming.

 

Jesus comes for His bride (Paul's rapture) as a thief in the night, meaning no one will know the exact time. Since His coming for the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord, then the DAY also comes as a thief in the night. 7 plus years later, when Jesus comes on His white horse, AGAIN He will come as a thief, meaning NO ONE will know the exact time. However, in His coming FOR His saints, He remains hidden in a cloud, while at His coming on the white horse, He will literally LIGHT UP the world with His coming.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

 

Actually, the "elect" that will be gathered is Israel. The Church will be coming with Jesus in the clouds.

 

 

But that presupposes that Christ gathering His Church occurs prior to the 'day of the Lord', when God's Word does not speak of but one time of Christ's return, which is on 'the day of the Lord'.

 

In 2 Thess.2 Apostle Paul used the phrase 'day of the Lord' when speaking of the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. It was translated to "day of Christ" in the KJV, when the Greek word for Christ is not there in the NT manuscripts.

 

The 'day of the Lord' is also the timing when the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah will be gathered back together to the holy lands. And that is... the day of Christ's return to gather His Church too.

[Salty]

God will certainly NOT gather all trumpets after the "last" trump at the rapture, so there can never, ever, be another trumpet blast. That is not His intent in this verse. His intent is Paul's "last trump" is the last IN A SERIES, just as the 7th in Revelation is the last of a series. These are DIFFERENT series and not in any way related.

 

The "last trump" Paul was speaking of is... the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev.11, because Rev.11 reveals all the kingdoms of this world becoming those of The Father and The Son with the 7th trumpet, and per Rev.10 that when the 7th angel begins to sound all prophecy for this world that God gave His prophets will be accomplished. Some men have tried to separate the two, but it cannot be done because the event timing is the same for both.

 

....

 

 

2 Thes. Says we, the bride of Christ - the one restraining the man of sin from being revealed - will be "departed" or "taken out of the way," so that the man of sin can be revealed in His time, so he can stand in the temple and declare he is god.

 

The "he" that does the withholding in 2 Thess.2 is the Archangel Michael. It's about Satan being withheld in Heaven until the war of Rev.12:7 forward when he and his angels are booted down to this earth for the end of days. Daniel 10 gave us a clue about that withholding.

 

 

The gathering by angels in Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the rapture. It is God gathering all of Israel BACK to Israel. There is literally nothing in that passage to even hint it is the rapture except to say it is a gathering.

 

Actually, the gathering of the saints in Matt.24 and Mark 13 are the very same events Paul covered in 1 Thess.4. The subject of the saints being gathered from the earth is covered with one (the Matt.24 version I think), and the other version covers the gathering of the 'asleep' saints from Heaven (in the Mark 13 version). Unbelieving Israel is not gathered to Christ, but to the holy lands. Only those in Christ Jesus are gathered to Him on that day of His coming in the clouds. And His coming involves His return to Jerusalem, where His saints will be along side Him to start His Millennial reign over all peoples.

 

 

Paul tells us his rapture will come as a SUDDENLY, when no one expects it, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. It is NOT "the day of the Lord" but is the trigger for the start of the Day.  In Revelation we can easily see it is before the 6th seal, which is the beginning of His wrath.

 

This is where Bible study in the OT prophets becomes really important, because the 'day of the Lord' events per the OT prophets all occur suddenly, at an instant (per Isaiah). It is to be a sudden shock, hence the metaphor of Christ's coming "as a thief". This is why Rev.11 uses the idea of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe coming 'quickly', because it's pulling from the sudden instant idea in Isaiah. God even gives an expression in the Hebrew of Isaiah like the sound of a bottle gurgling when it is turned up-side down with its contents being suddenly poured out.

 

The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe events still have the Antichrist in power on earth, up until God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem. Then three and one half days later the events of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe occur, which is actually the day of God's wrath upon the wicked, which is what 'the day of the Lord' events are about on the day of Christ's coming (i.e., Armageddon). God gives another metaphor in Isaiah about that timing for the wicked, of how it will be to them as if they were very hungry, and then dreamed of a grand feast, only to wake up to the shock that it was just a dream and they're still hungry. Thus the 'day of the Lord" events are to happen suddenly, and serve as a shock upon the deceived and unbelieving.

 

That is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Thess.5 when he remarked that when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That is the day of God's wrath upon the wicked, the same day of Christ's coming to gather those of us who remain faithful with waiting for Him.

 

 

Jesus was the very first person to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. Then later the dead in Christ will be the second group to be resurrected at the "first" resurrection. There are only TWO resurrections; one for the just and one for the unjust a thousand years later. Therefore ALL the righteous will be a part of the "first" resurrection; just not all at the same time. Even the two witnesses will be a part of this resurrection, IN THEIR time.

 

Shouldn't confuse the term "first resurrection" of Rev.20 with Christ's Resurrection. He was the "firstfruit" of the resurrection, but not the "first resurrection" of Rev.20. The resurrection for both the just and the unjust occurs on the day of Christ's return (John 5:28-29). The wicked are raised too at His coming and are assigned to the "resurrection of damnation" and they will go through Christ's Millennium reign as those nations and the wicked outside the 'camp of the saints". Those of the "resurrection of damnation" are spiritually called "the dead", they are not literally in graves waiting to be resurrected at the end of the thousand years. The idea of to 'live' in that future time means to NOT be subject to the "second death". To be 'dead' in that time means to still be subject to the "second death", for that is the only kind of death still remaining at that point.

 

There is not even one hint in Rev. 19 that there is a resurrection at His coming.

 

Well actually there is, because the time of Christ's coming to do battle on earth with His angels is also about the Zech.14 events of His coming, and also the gathering of His saints, and to bring His wrath upon the earth and the wicked, which are all 'day of the Lord' events. All those things were covered in other chapters and Books of God's Word beforehand, so no need to repeat all that when He was showing the defeat of His enemies especially in that Rev.19 chapter.

 

So, just saying an event is not mentioned in one place in God's Word when it is... mentioned in a multitude of other Scriptures is no reason to just throw away all those other Scriptures in trying to substantiate a doctrine from men.

 

 

Jesus comes for His bride (Paul's rapture) as a thief in the night, meaning no one will know the exact time. Since His coming for the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord, then the DAY also comes as a thief in the night. 7 plus years later, when Jesus comes on His white horse, AGAIN He will come as a thief, meaning NO ONE will know the exact time. However, in His coming FOR His saints, He remains hidden in a cloud, while at His coming on the white horse, He will literally LIGHT UP the world with His coming.

 

LAMAD

 

The "thief in the night" metaphor is about the surprise of Christ's coming upon the deceived and the wicked. It is not towards His Church that remain faithful in waiting for Him watching the times and the seasons that He and His Apostles showed us to be watching. Paul even shows us in 1 Thess.5 that Christ's coming is not to be as a thief (surprise) upon His Church. What you're preaching there is directly from a doctrine of men that is not Biblical. The pre-trib rapture theory uses the "as a thief" metaphor to tell its believers they do NOT... need to be mindful of the times of the seasons leading up to Christ's second coming.

 

 

 

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

Actually, the "elect" that will be gathered is Israel. The Church will be coming with Jesus in the clouds.

 

 

But that presupposes that Christ gathering His Church occurs prior to the 'day of the Lord', when God's Word does not speak of but one time of Christ's return, which is on 'the day of the Lord'.

 

In 2 Thess.2 Apostle Paul used the phrase 'day of the Lord' when speaking of the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. It was translated to "day of Christ" in the KJV, when the Greek word for Christ is not there in the NT manuscripts.

 

The 'day of the Lord' is also the timing when the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah will be gathered back together to the holy lands. And that is... the day of Christ's return to gather His Church too.

 

 

Obviously there are various days of the Lord.