Revelation 13

[iamlamad]

 

 

I want to thank you fir your reply.

The only thing that is ignored by your theory of a future earthly millenium reign, is you need the commencement of the reaping of the great harvest of God when this happens.the resurrection of the dead is not a one time even but one that encompasses the millenium reign.

If the reaping of the great harvest of God is during the millenium then if Christ is on earth, where are the mortal departed going when they put on the incorruptible heavenly body?

Since the dead do not hinder the departed, then you have a real problem that is not resolved, that is the dead are being raised during this time and are being clothed with the celestial bodies. If the resurrection does happen at Christ's second coming, then it must signal the long awaited resurrection of the dead right?

Since the white cloud he comes with are his resurrected saints who have put on the celestial post resurrection bodies, then the mortal faithful who die in the Lord from that point onwards are also being raised in their celestial post resurrection bodies. However where do they go, since Christ is on earth reigning for the millenium.

I believe the whole pre-dispensationalist doctrine is based on many unresolvable faulty premises.

How could you place the glorified Christ reigning in earth when mortals are running around procreating and dying around Him, this is far from glorious for the God of Abraham is the God of the living and not the dead.

Just think about it how could it be declared that he will wipe every tear and there will be no more death, only to have mortals dying of around Him. This contradicting is unresolvable.

Rev 21:2-4

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:for the former things are passed away.

(KJV)

Notice New Jerusalem which is inhabited by the white cloud, Christ's saints, the Holy ones mentioned in Zechariah come with Christ and his dwelling will be with man. So this statement is followed in context to the wiping away of all tears and the declaration of no more death.

The arguments that I have presented above proove that there are major flaws in your theory.

The flaws are only in your thinking, not in reality. Did you not read:

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

Death is conquered ONLY for those who receive their resurrection bodies. All do not receive this at the same time. As to what happens to those who die during the millennial reign of Christ, John does not tell us. We would only be guessing to come up with an answer. All I can say is, God will certainly be JUST.

WHEN in John's narrative does the Holy City descend? Is it not AFTER the millennial reign of Christ? People fight dispensations, but they are REAL and they are laid out clearly in the bible. God deals differently with man during the millennium than during the 70th week and during the age of the church. If one tries to apply verses meant for the church age to the millennium, they will not fit. When Jesus speaks of no more tears, no more death, that is long AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ and the battle of God and Magog and then after the white throne judgment and even after the new heaven and new earth.

WHEN is this great "reaping" you mention? We see a reaping (given as a prophecy of the future) in Rev. 14. But when exactly will God "reap?" His harvest will begin at the pretrib rapture of the church. Then, the 144,000 are changed near the midpoint of the week as firstfruits. Finally the Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week. Many of the wicked are "harvested" in the winepress of God's wrath at the battle of Armageddon. Certainly those born during the millennium of Christ on earth that are righteous will be a part of God's "harvest," but John does not give us much information after that.

LAMAD

There are allot of inconsistencies in your chronological events. Please let me point them out in kindness and in love.

Your dispensations are as follows:

1) Holy City New Jerusalem descends after Christ's earthly millennium reign.

2) Millennium is not the 70th week.

3) Battle of Gog and Magog after millennium reign.

4) no more tears and no more death is after the old earth and old heaven dissolve.

5) Reaping of the great harvest of God begins at the pre-trib rapture of the church.

6) 144,000 are changed at the mid-point of the 70th week as the first fruits of the harvest.

7) Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week.

8) People are procreating and being born whilst Christ is ruling on earth during the millennium.

Where do I start?

Firstly New Jerusalem according to dispensationalism, is where the church comes back to earth with Christ, to reign with him. However you are saying that New Jerusalem descends after the millennium reign. There seems to be a huge discrepancy here that you can't resolve.

Consider the versus below, where according to dispensationalism is the second coming of The Lord. Notice that the city New Jerusalem has already been established before his second coming when The Lord comes, he is coming down with the heavenly city. So you cannot separate Christ's second coming with the heavenly city new Jerusalem, because wherever he goes, the city follows him. According to your assertions which I numbered one to eight above, you have Christ coming to earth without the heavenly city new Jerusalem. I cannot repeat it enough but to have new Jerusalem coming at the end of the millennium is a major flaw. You have literally separated Christ from the Holy City that predates the second coming and predates the earthly millennium reign. Since the very mention of the hoy heavenly city is within the open letter to the seven churches. Why would it be mentioned to the church, if it doesn't even exist until after the millennium reign and after the new earth and new heavens come into being.

Revelation 3:11-12

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The millennium reign must be from the mid point of Daniel's 70th week because the remaining half of of Daniel's 70th week must be the great harvest of God and if you look at the above, you will also note that the battle of Gog and Magog is at the end of the 70th week. The first fruits (144,000) must be at the start of of the reaping of the harvest and not after the rapture of the church as you mentioned, otherwise the 144,000 would not be called the first fruits in the first place and also salvation would not have gone to the Jews first.

The Old Testament saints must be the first to be raised as far as the reaping of the harvest of God is concerned for the living cannot hinder the dead from being raised and after all these Old Testament Saints were waiting for Christ's first and only advent to raise them up from their graves.

Where Christ is, there the kingdom of God is, because it is written that he went up on high and sat on the right hand of power, meaning authority. So where ever Christ goes, the the Kingdom of God is with him. Since scripture cannot be broken the following verse rules out an earthly reign amongst FLESHY people who are procreating and dying around the glorified lord.

1 Corinthians 1:29

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 15:50

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

How can you put flesh, whoremongers and the dying before the presence of the glorified lord is what concerns me the most, especially about your dispensationalist eschatology, for it is written that no flesh can come into his presence. The only man that can come into his presence is that of the heavenly post resurrection one.

What I am saying is scriptural and cannot be broken. Read and try to understand the following:

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Understand that Christ is sinless and the verse applies to the believer, who was born from an earthly mother, inheriting the sin of Adam. The second time the believer is presented before the The Lord, is without sin and this second time is a post resurrection form as one of the many holy ones that accompany Christ as the symbolic white cloud. He will only appear to those who have put off the sinful flesh and put on the sinless heavenly post resurrection spirit body. We can only behold the appearing or presence of The Lord after we are born the second time, through the resurrection of the dead. We have to put off the corruptible and put on incorruption and in that regard we are being presented to him the second time without sin.

The fleshy world will never behold the presence of The Lord, never!

 

You are using human reasoning. Let's go by the bible, not by what you think or imagine dispensational though is. I believe in dispensations, yet, I have never heard your theory. The New Jerusalem does NOT descend during the 1000 year reign of Christ. John shows us that it is after this heaven and earth are destroyed and we have a NEW heaven and earth. This is not a "discrepancy," it is the truth of scripture. No one should be looking for the Holy City to descend during the millennial reign of Christ. He will have an earthly temple built in Jerusalem then.

 

Your theories are so far from the normal teachings of the church, I don't wish to go any further. I challenge you to just forget the dispensational teachings you have heard, and just study the bible. It is like you are trying to compare post trib doctrine with pretrib doctrine: of course we know these two are diametrically opposed and "neither the twain shall meet."

 

Let me ask you: do you read in Revelation that there is a new heaven and a new earth before you read of the Holy City descending?

Maybe your bible is different.

 

One more thought: did you forget that Jesus stood in the upper room AFTER He rose from the dead and received His glorified body, and the disciples did not burn up? Did you forget how He walked with the two on the road, and they did not burn up? OF COURSE Jesus will be on earth for His Mellennial Reign. He will appoint David as the King. I am not sure he will be here on earth 24/7, but He will certainly come and be anointed as it is written: He will RULE with a rod of iron.

 

LAMAD

[Marilyn C]

Good thoughts there Lamad.

[Defending the Name]

I want to thank you fir your reply.

The only thing that is ignored by your theory of a future earthly millenium reign, is you need the commencement of the reaping of the great harvest of God when this happens.the resurrection of the dead is not a one time even but one that encompasses the millenium reign.

If the reaping of the great harvest of God is during the millenium then if Christ is on earth, where are the mortal departed going when they put on the incorruptible heavenly body?

Since the dead do not hinder the departed, then you have a real problem that is not resolved, that is the dead are being raised during this time and are being clothed with the celestial bodies. If the resurrection does happen at Christ's second coming, then it must signal the long awaited resurrection of the dead right?

Since the white cloud he comes with are his resurrected saints who have put on the celestial post resurrection bodies, then the mortal faithful who die in the Lord from that point onwards are also being raised in their celestial post resurrection bodies. However where do they go, since Christ is on earth reigning for the millenium.

I believe the whole pre-dispensationalist doctrine is based on many unresolvable faulty premises.

How could you place the glorified Christ reigning in earth when mortals are running around procreating and dying around Him, this is far from glorious for the God of Abraham is the God of the living and not the dead.

Just think about it how could it be declared that he will wipe every tear and there will be no more death, only to have mortals dying of around Him. This contradicting is unresolvable.

Rev 21:2-4

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:for the former things are passed away.

(KJV)

Notice New Jerusalem which is inhabited by the white cloud, Christ's saints, the Holy ones mentioned in Zechariah come with Christ and his dwelling will be with man. So this statement is followed in context to the wiping away of all tears and the declaration of no more death.

The arguments that I have presented above proove that there are major flaws in your theory.

The flaws are only in your thinking, not in reality. Did you not read:

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

Death is conquered ONLY for those who receive their resurrection bodies. All do not receive this at the same time. As to what happens to those who die during the millennial reign of Christ, John does not tell us. We would only be guessing to come up with an answer. All I can say is, God will certainly be JUST.

WHEN in John's narrative does the Holy City descend? Is it not AFTER the millennial reign of Christ? People fight dispensations, but they are REAL and they are laid out clearly in the bible. God deals differently with man during the millennium than during the 70th week and during the age of the church. If one tries to apply verses meant for the church age to the millennium, they will not fit. When Jesus speaks of no more tears, no more death, that is long AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ and the battle of God and Magog and then after the white throne judgment and even after the new heaven and new earth.

WHEN is this great "reaping" you mention? We see a reaping (given as a prophecy of the future) in Rev. 14. But when exactly will God "reap?" His harvest will begin at the pretrib rapture of the church. Then, the 144,000 are changed near the midpoint of the week as firstfruits. Finally the Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week. Many of the wicked are "harvested" in the winepress of God's wrath at the battle of Armageddon. Certainly those born during the millennium of Christ on earth that are righteous will be a part of God's "harvest," but John does not give us much information after that.

LAMAD

There are allot of inconsistencies in your chronological events. Please let me point them out in kindness and in love.

Your dispensations are as follows:

1) Holy City New Jerusalem descends after Christ's earthly millennium reign.

2) Millennium is not the 70th week.

3) Battle of Gog and Magog after millennium reign.

4) no more tears and no more death is after the old earth and old heaven dissolve.

5) Reaping of the great harvest of God begins at the pre-trib rapture of the church.

6) 144,000 are changed at the mid-point of the 70th week as the first fruits of the harvest.

7) Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week.

8) People are procreating and being born whilst Christ is ruling on earth during the millennium.

Where do I start?

Firstly New Jerusalem according to dispensationalism, is where the church comes back to earth with Christ, to reign with him. However you are saying that New Jerusalem descends after the millennium reign. There seems to be a huge discrepancy here that you can't resolve.

Consider the versus below, where according to dispensationalism is the second coming of The Lord. Notice that the city New Jerusalem has already been established before his second coming when The Lord comes, he is coming down with the heavenly city. So you cannot separate Christ's second coming with the heavenly city new Jerusalem, because wherever he goes, the city follows him. According to your assertions which I numbered one to eight above, you have Christ coming to earth without the heavenly city new Jerusalem. I cannot repeat it enough but to have new Jerusalem coming at the end of the millennium is a major flaw. You have literally separated Christ from the Holy City that predates the second coming and predates the earthly millennium reign. Since the very mention of the hoy heavenly city is within the open letter to the seven churches. Why would it be mentioned to the church, if it doesn't even exist until after the millennium reign and after the new earth and new heavens come into being.

Revelation 3:11-12

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The millennium reign must be from the mid point of Daniel's 70th week because the remaining half of of Daniel's 70th week must be the great harvest of God and if you look at the above, you will also note that the battle of Gog and Magog is at the end of the 70th week. The first fruits (144,000) must be at the start of of the reaping of the harvest and not after the rapture of the church as you mentioned, otherwise the 144,000 would not be called the first fruits in the first place and also salvation would not have gone to the Jews first.

The Old Testament saints must be the first to be raised as far as the reaping of the harvest of God is concerned for the living cannot hinder the dead from being raised and after all these Old Testament Saints were waiting for Christ's first and only advent to raise them up from their graves.

Where Christ is, there the kingdom of God is, because it is written that he went up on high and sat on the right hand of power, meaning authority. So where ever Christ goes, the the Kingdom of God is with him. Since scripture cannot be broken the following verse rules out an earthly reign amongst FLESHY people who are procreating and dying around the glorified lord.

1 Corinthians 1:29

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 15:50

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

How can you put flesh, whoremongers and the dying before the presence of the glorified lord is what concerns me the most, especially about your dispensationalist eschatology, for it is written that no flesh can come into his presence. The only man that can come into his presence is that of the heavenly post resurrection one.

What I am saying is scriptural and cannot be broken. Read and try to understand the following:

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Understand that Christ is sinless and the verse applies to the believer, who was born from an earthly mother, inheriting the sin of Adam. The second time the believer is presented before the The Lord, is without sin and this second time is a post resurrection form as one of the many holy ones that accompany Christ as the symbolic white cloud. He will only appear to those who have put off the sinful flesh and put on the sinless heavenly post resurrection spirit body. We can only behold the appearing or presence of The Lord after we are born the second time, through the resurrection of the dead. We have to put off the corruptible and put on incorruption and in that regard we are being presented to him the second time without sin.

The fleshy world will never behold the presence of The Lord, never!

You are using human reasoning. Let's go by the bible, not by what you think or imagine dispensational though is. I believe in dispensations, yet, I have never heard your theory. The New Jerusalem does NOT descend during the 1000 year reign of Christ. John shows us that it is after this heaven and earth are destroyed and we have a NEW heaven and earth. This is not a "discrepancy," it is the truth of scripture. No one should be looking for the Holy City to descend during the millennial reign of Christ. He will have an earthly temple built in Jerusalem then.

 

Your theories are so far from the normal teachings of the church, I don't wish to go any further. I challenge you to just forget the dispensational teachings you have heard, and just study the bible. It is like you are trying to compare post trib doctrine with pretrib doctrine: of course we know these two are diametrically opposed and "neither the twain shall meet."

 

Let me ask you: do you read in Revelation that there is a new heaven and a new earth before you read of the Holy City descending?

Maybe your bible is different.

 

One more thought: did you forget that Jesus stood in the upper room AFTER He rose from the dead and received His glorified body, and the disciples did not burn up? Did you forget how He walked with the two on the road, and they did not burn up? OF COURSE Jesus will be on earth for His Mellennial Reign. He will appoint David as the King. I am not sure he will be here on earth 24/7, but He will certainly come and be anointed as it is written: He will RULE with a rod of iron.

 

LAMAD

I have no ulterior motive neither earthly agendas all I am concerned about is the word of God and what is testified.

Just to reply on what you have stated on how "The Lord appeared in his post resurrection body and that no one was burnt up."

The Lord himself said that I must go before I can send the Comforter who will be both advocate on my behalf and represent me on earth. He said that the Holy Spirit will always be with the believer.

It is important to listen to what Jesus said:

John 16:7

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:19

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

The Lord is not coming back because the Holy Ghost is here to stay as advocate and representative on his behalf. The only person that comes riding on a horse and destroys his enemies and makes believers out of the non believers, by a display of power and aggression is the devil himself pretending to be Messiah, who is the little horn of Daniel's revelation.,

Jesus said to the faithful that the world will never see me again and that the prince of this world is coming after I leave for good, because I am sending the Comforter and I can no longer come back, because the Holy Ghost from now on is the advocate that will never leave you and who represents me in Spirit on earth.

John 14:30-31

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD IS COMING, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

The Holy Spirit is here to stay and will have his men as the last men standing on earth, before the destruction of the world by the judgement vials.

Revelation 5:6

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH.

THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IS HERE TO STAY THEREFORE RULING OUT ANY EARTHLY MANIFESTATION OF MESSIAH.

[Last Daze]

Acts 1:

 

⁹ And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. ¹⁰ And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. ¹¹ They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

I want to thank you fir your reply.

The only thing that is ignored by your theory of a future earthly millenium reign, is you need the commencement of the reaping of the great harvest of God when this happens.the resurrection of the dead is not a one time even but one that encompasses the millenium reign.

If the reaping of the great harvest of God is during the millenium then if Christ is on earth, where are the mortal departed going when they put on the incorruptible heavenly body?

Since the dead do not hinder the departed, then you have a real problem that is not resolved, that is the dead are being raised during this time and are being clothed with the celestial bodies. If the resurrection does happen at Christ's second coming, then it must signal the long awaited resurrection of the dead right?

Since the white cloud he comes with are his resurrected saints who have put on the celestial post resurrection bodies, then the mortal faithful who die in the Lord from that point onwards are also being raised in their celestial post resurrection bodies. However where do they go, since Christ is on earth reigning for the millenium.

I believe the whole pre-dispensationalist doctrine is based on many unresolvable faulty premises.

How could you place the glorified Christ reigning in earth when mortals are running around procreating and dying around Him, this is far from glorious for the God of Abraham is the God of the living and not the dead.

Just think about it how could it be declared that he will wipe every tear and there will be no more death, only to have mortals dying of around Him. This contradicting is unresolvable.

Rev 21:2-4

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:for the former things are passed away.

(KJV)

Notice New Jerusalem which is inhabited by the white cloud, Christ's saints, the Holy ones mentioned in Zechariah come with Christ and his dwelling will be with man. So this statement is followed in context to the wiping away of all tears and the declaration of no more death.

The arguments that I have presented above proove that there are major flaws in your theory.

The flaws are only in your thinking, not in reality. Did you not read:

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

Death is conquered ONLY for those who receive their resurrection bodies. All do not receive this at the same time. As to what happens to those who die during the millennial reign of Christ, John does not tell us. We would only be guessing to come up with an answer. All I can say is, God will certainly be JUST.

WHEN in John's narrative does the Holy City descend? Is it not AFTER the millennial reign of Christ? People fight dispensations, but they are REAL and they are laid out clearly in the bible. God deals differently with man during the millennium than during the 70th week and during the age of the church. If one tries to apply verses meant for the church age to the millennium, they will not fit. When Jesus speaks of no more tears, no more death, that is long AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ and the battle of God and Magog and then after the white throne judgment and even after the new heaven and new earth.

WHEN is this great "reaping" you mention? We see a reaping (given as a prophecy of the future) in Rev. 14. But when exactly will God "reap?" His harvest will begin at the pretrib rapture of the church. Then, the 144,000 are changed near the midpoint of the week as firstfruits. Finally the Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week. Many of the wicked are "harvested" in the winepress of God's wrath at the battle of Armageddon. Certainly those born during the millennium of Christ on earth that are righteous will be a part of God's "harvest," but John does not give us much information after that.

LAMAD

There are allot of inconsistencies in your chronological events. Please let me point them out in kindness and in love.

Your dispensations are as follows:

1) Holy City New Jerusalem descends after Christ's earthly millennium reign.

2) Millennium is not the 70th week.

3) Battle of Gog and Magog after millennium reign.

4) no more tears and no more death is after the old earth and old heaven dissolve.

5) Reaping of the great harvest of God begins at the pre-trib rapture of the church.

6) 144,000 are changed at the mid-point of the 70th week as the first fruits of the harvest.

7) Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week.

8) People are procreating and being born whilst Christ is ruling on earth during the millennium.

Where do I start?

Firstly New Jerusalem according to dispensationalism, is where the church comes back to earth with Christ, to reign with him. However you are saying that New Jerusalem descends after the millennium reign. There seems to be a huge discrepancy here that you can't resolve.

Consider the versus below, where according to dispensationalism is the second coming of The Lord. Notice that the city New Jerusalem has already been established before his second coming when The Lord comes, he is coming down with the heavenly city. So you cannot separate Christ's second coming with the heavenly city new Jerusalem, because wherever he goes, the city follows him. According to your assertions which I numbered one to eight above, you have Christ coming to earth without the heavenly city new Jerusalem. I cannot repeat it enough but to have new Jerusalem coming at the end of the millennium is a major flaw. You have literally separated Christ from the Holy City that predates the second coming and predates the earthly millennium reign. Since the very mention of the hoy heavenly city is within the open letter to the seven churches. Why would it be mentioned to the church, if it doesn't even exist until after the millennium reign and after the new earth and new heavens come into being.

Revelation 3:11-12

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The millennium reign must be from the mid point of Daniel's 70th week because the remaining half of of Daniel's 70th week must be the great harvest of God and if you look at the above, you will also note that the battle of Gog and Magog is at the end of the 70th week. The first fruits (144,000) must be at the start of of the reaping of the harvest and not after the rapture of the church as you mentioned, otherwise the 144,000 would not be called the first fruits in the first place and also salvation would not have gone to the Jews first.

The Old Testament saints must be the first to be raised as far as the reaping of the harvest of God is concerned for the living cannot hinder the dead from being raised and after all these Old Testament Saints were waiting for Christ's first and only advent to raise them up from their graves.

Where Christ is, there the kingdom of God is, because it is written that he went up on high and sat on the right hand of power, meaning authority. So where ever Christ goes, the the Kingdom of God is with him. Since scripture cannot be broken the following verse rules out an earthly reign amongst FLESHY people who are procreating and dying around the glorified lord.

1 Corinthians 1:29

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 15:50

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

How can you put flesh, whoremongers and the dying before the presence of the glorified lord is what concerns me the most, especially about your dispensationalist eschatology, for it is written that no flesh can come into his presence. The only man that can come into his presence is that of the heavenly post resurrection one.

What I am saying is scriptural and cannot be broken. Read and try to understand the following:

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Understand that Christ is sinless and the verse applies to the believer, who was born from an earthly mother, inheriting the sin of Adam. The second time the believer is presented before the The Lord, is without sin and this second time is a post resurrection form as one of the many holy ones that accompany Christ as the symbolic white cloud. He will only appear to those who have put off the sinful flesh and put on the sinless heavenly post resurrection spirit body. We can only behold the appearing or presence of The Lord after we are born the second time, through the resurrection of the dead. We have to put off the corruptible and put on incorruption and in that regard we are being presented to him the second time without sin.

The fleshy world will never behold the presence of The Lord, never!

You are using human reasoning. Let's go by the bible, not by what you think or imagine dispensational though is. I believe in dispensations, yet, I have never heard your theory. The New Jerusalem does NOT descend during the 1000 year reign of Christ. John shows us that it is after this heaven and earth are destroyed and we have a NEW heaven and earth. This is not a "discrepancy," it is the truth of scripture. No one should be looking for the Holy City to descend during the millennial reign of Christ. He will have an earthly temple built in Jerusalem then.

 

Your theories are so far from the normal teachings of the church, I don't wish to go any further. I challenge you to just forget the dispensational teachings you have heard, and just study the bible. It is like you are trying to compare post trib doctrine with pretrib doctrine: of course we know these two are diametrically opposed and "neither the twain shall meet."

 

Let me ask you: do you read in Revelation that there is a new heaven and a new earth before you read of the Holy City descending?

Maybe your bible is different.

 

One more thought: did you forget that Jesus stood in the upper room AFTER He rose from the dead and received His glorified body, and the disciples did not burn up? Did you forget how He walked with the two on the road, and they did not burn up? OF COURSE Jesus will be on earth for His Mellennial Reign. He will appoint David as the King. I am not sure he will be here on earth 24/7, but He will certainly come and be anointed as it is written: He will RULE with a rod of iron.

 

LAMAD

I have no ulterior motive neither earthly agendas all I am concerned about is the word of God and what is testified.

Just to reply on what you have stated on how "The Lord appeared in his post resurrection body and that no one was burnt up."

The Lord himself said that I must go before I can send the Comforter who will be both advocate on my behalf and represent me on earth. He said that the Holy Spirit will always be with the believer.

It is important to listen to what Jesus said:

John 16:7

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:19

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

The Lord is not coming back because the Holy Ghost is here to stay as advocate and representative on his behalf. The only person that comes riding on a horse and destroys his enemies and makes believers out of the non believers, by a display of power and aggression is the devil himself pretending to be Messiah, who is the little horn of Daniel's revelation.,

Jesus said to the faithful that the world will never see me again and that the prince of this world is coming after I leave for good, because I am sending the Comforter and I can no longer come back, because the Holy Ghost from now on is the advocate that will never leave you and who represents me in Spirit on earth.

John 14:30-31

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD IS COMING, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

The Holy Spirit is here to stay and will have his men as the last men standing on earth, before the destruction of the world by the judgement vials.

Revelation 5:6

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH.

THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IS HERE TO STAY THEREFORE RULING OUT ANY EARTHLY MANIFESTATION OF MESSIAH.

 

Obviously there is something terribly wrong in your interpretation, because Jesus SAID He would return. In just a couple of minutes of searching I found 59 verses about Jesus coming again to the earth. They are there if you care to look. The question is, can you read them without preconceived glasses on?

 

Here is one of my favorites:

Zechariah 14:3-5King James Version (KJV)

³ Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

⁵ And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

This will happen on the day that He returns. Did you forget about these verses? it is HIS return to earth:

 

Rev. 19

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

¹² His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

¹³ And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

¹⁶ And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

¹⁸ That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

¹⁹ And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

²⁰ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

²¹ And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

These two passages, the one in Zech. and in Rev. detail His return to earth. There are perhaps 50 more verses that speak of His coming. I am very puzzled then that you struggle so with the idea that HE WILL COME AGAIN.

 

THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IS HERE TO STAY THEREFORE RULING OUT ANY EARTHLY MANIFESTATION OF MESSIAH.

 

WHO SAID? That is only your theory. OF COURSE He will stay with those in whom He has indwelt, but Paul tells us the day is coming when those who are ALIVE will be changed and John 14 tells us we will be escorted to heaven. So the Holy Spirit will certainly GO WITH those who are caught up to heaven.

 

He came on the day of Pentecost so that those IN CHRIST could be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is my belief that on the day of the rapture, He will return back to the throne room of heaven, and life here will be just as it was before He came, for the church age will be OVER. You do realize, don't you, that this age we are living in will soon END?

 

I love those verses on the Holy Spirit, for I had been born again for 13 years and knew NOTHING about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Thank GOD I started dating a girl who went to such a church. My first time there I sensed something I had never seen before: the anointing! I WANTED IT! I wanted HIM! So I was filled with the Holy Spirit when I was 20 years old. I work hard to STAY filled. But the day will come when I will be caught up, and He will go with me.

LAMAD

[Marilyn C]

Amen brother Lamad,

 

Great to hear of your testimony. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit when I was a teenager, at a camp in the hills of New Zealand. I was in the meeting with the Maoris singing & praising the Lord & the `glory fell,` as they say & I was swept up in worshipping the Lord. I value speaking in tongues to build ourselves up in the Holy spirit & to have our inner ears tuned to Him.

 

Concerning the Holy Spirit, you realise that He is omnipresent - everywhere present. Thus He will not leave the world for this world would not operate without Him upholding it. He will still draw people to God in the tribulation & in the millennium. The difference, which you noted, is not that He is gone but that the way He operates will be different. Today He is building up & maturing the Body by Christ`s directions, setting us in the Body as He wills. (1 Cor. 12: 18) When the Body is completed & mature & gone to its eternal setting, then the Holy Spirit will draw people to God but they will still be part of their nation, & not in the Body.

 

Thus as you said, it will be different. I do not think many people realise the great wonder of being a part of the Body of Christ, but the Holy Spirit is revealing it more & more as people are now learning to discern the 3 groups that God has plans for - The Body of Christ, Israel & the nations.  

Edited September 17, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Defending the Name]

Acts 1:

⁹ And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. ¹⁰ And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. ¹¹ They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

What other versus do you have to tie scripture with scripture or is that only a one liner quoted out of context. Think about it, where is the back born of your theology to make a claim based on one verse alone, really come on think about!

The chances are, that you have not understood the context of that verse you just quoted me.

Do you really want to know the context of the verse?

Edited September 17, 2014 by Defending the Name

[Defending the Name]

I want to thank you fir your reply.

The only thing that is ignored by your theory of a future earthly millenium reign, is you need the commencement of the reaping of the great harvest of God when this happens.the resurrection of the dead is not a one time even but one that encompasses the millenium reign.

If the reaping of the great harvest of God is during the millenium then if Christ is on earth, where are the mortal departed going when they put on the incorruptible heavenly body?

Since the dead do not hinder the departed, then you have a real problem that is not resolved, that is the dead are being raised during this time and are being clothed with the celestial bodies. If the resurrection does happen at Christ's second coming, then it must signal the long awaited resurrection of the dead right?

Since the white cloud he comes with are his resurrected saints who have put on the celestial post resurrection bodies, then the mortal faithful who die in the Lord from that point onwards are also being raised in their celestial post resurrection bodies. However where do they go, since Christ is on earth reigning for the millenium.

I believe the whole pre-dispensationalist doctrine is based on many unresolvable faulty premises.

How could you place the glorified Christ reigning in earth when mortals are running around procreating and dying around Him, this is far from glorious for the God of Abraham is the God of the living and not the dead.

Just think about it how could it be declared that he will wipe every tear and there will be no more death, only to have mortals dying of around Him. This contradicting is unresolvable.

Rev 21:2-4

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:for the former things are passed away.

(KJV)

Notice New Jerusalem which is inhabited by the white cloud, Christ's saints, the Holy ones mentioned in Zechariah come with Christ and his dwelling will be with man. So this statement is followed in context to the wiping away of all tears and the declaration of no more death.

The arguments that I have presented above proove that there are major flaws in your theory.

The flaws are only in your thinking, not in reality. Did you not read:

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

Death is conquered ONLY for those who receive their resurrection bodies. All do not receive this at the same time. As to what happens to those who die during the millennial reign of Christ, John does not tell us. We would only be guessing to come up with an answer. All I can say is, God will certainly be JUST.

WHEN in John's narrative does the Holy City descend? Is it not AFTER the millennial reign of Christ? People fight dispensations, but they are REAL and they are laid out clearly in the bible. God deals differently with man during the millennium than during the 70th week and during the age of the church. If one tries to apply verses meant for the church age to the millennium, they will not fit. When Jesus speaks of no more tears, no more death, that is long AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ and the battle of God and Magog and then after the white throne judgment and even after the new heaven and new earth.

WHEN is this great "reaping" you mention? We see a reaping (given as a prophecy of the future) in Rev. 14. But when exactly will God "reap?" His harvest will begin at the pretrib rapture of the church. Then, the 144,000 are changed near the midpoint of the week as firstfruits. Finally the Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week. Many of the wicked are "harvested" in the winepress of God's wrath at the battle of Armageddon. Certainly those born during the millennium of Christ on earth that are righteous will be a part of God's "harvest," but John does not give us much information after that.

LAMAD

There are allot of inconsistencies in your chronological events. Please let me point them out in kindness and in love.

Your dispensations are as follows:

1) Holy City New Jerusalem descends after Christ's earthly millennium reign.

2) Millennium is not the 70th week.

3) Battle of Gog and Magog after millennium reign.

4) no more tears and no more death is after the old earth and old heaven dissolve.

5) Reaping of the great harvest of God begins at the pre-trib rapture of the church.

6) 144,000 are changed at the mid-point of the 70th week as the first fruits of the harvest.

7) Old Testament saints are raised at the 7th vial that ends the week.

8) People are procreating and being born whilst Christ is ruling on earth during the millennium.

Where do I start?

Firstly New Jerusalem according to dispensationalism, is where the church comes back to earth with Christ, to reign with him. However you are saying that New Jerusalem descends after the millennium reign. There seems to be a huge discrepancy here that you can't resolve.

Consider the versus below, where according to dispensationalism is the second coming of The Lord. Notice that the city New Jerusalem has already been established before his second coming when The Lord comes, he is coming down with the heavenly city. So you cannot separate Christ's second coming with the heavenly city new Jerusalem, because wherever he goes, the city follows him. According to your assertions which I numbered one to eight above, you have Christ coming to earth without the heavenly city new Jerusalem. I cannot repeat it enough but to have new Jerusalem coming at the end of the millennium is a major flaw. You have literally separated Christ from the Holy City that predates the second coming and predates the earthly millennium reign. Since the very mention of the hoy heavenly city is within the open letter to the seven churches. Why would it be mentioned to the church, if it doesn't even exist until after the millennium reign and after the new earth and new heavens come into being.

Revelation 3:11-12

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The millennium reign must be from the mid point of Daniel's 70th week because the remaining half of of Daniel's 70th week must be the great harvest of God and if you look at the above, you will also note that the battle of Gog and Magog is at the end of the 70th week. The first fruits (144,000) must be at the start of of the reaping of the harvest and not after the rapture of the church as you mentioned, otherwise the 144,000 would not be called the first fruits in the first place and also salvation would not have gone to the Jews first.

The Old Testament saints must be the first to be raised as far as the reaping of the harvest of God is concerned for the living cannot hinder the dead from being raised and after all these Old Testament Saints were waiting for Christ's first and only advent to raise them up from their graves.

Where Christ is, there the kingdom of God is, because it is written that he went up on high and sat on the right hand of power, meaning authority. So where ever Christ goes, the the Kingdom of God is with him. Since scripture cannot be broken the following verse rules out an earthly reign amongst FLESHY people who are procreating and dying around the glorified lord.

1 Corinthians 1:29

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 15:50

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

How can you put flesh, whoremongers and the dying before the presence of the glorified lord is what concerns me the most, especially about your dispensationalist eschatology, for it is written that no flesh can come into his presence. The only man that can come into his presence is that of the heavenly post resurrection one.

What I am saying is scriptural and cannot be broken. Read and try to understand the following:

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Understand that Christ is sinless and the verse applies to the believer, who was born from an earthly mother, inheriting the sin of Adam. The second time the believer is presented before the The Lord, is without sin and this second time is a post resurrection form as one of the many holy ones that accompany Christ as the symbolic white cloud. He will only appear to those who have put off the sinful flesh and put on the sinless heavenly post resurrection spirit body. We can only behold the appearing or presence of The Lord after we are born the second time, through the resurrection of the dead. We have to put off the corruptible and put on incorruption and in that regard we are being presented to him the second time without sin.

The fleshy world will never behold the presence of The Lord, never!

You are using human reasoning. Let's go by the bible, not by what you think or imagine dispensational though is. I believe in dispensations, yet, I have never heard your theory. The New Jerusalem does NOT descend during the 1000 year reign of Christ. John shows us that it is after this heaven and earth are destroyed and we have a NEW heaven and earth. This is not a "discrepancy," it is the truth of scripture. No one should be looking for the Holy City to descend during the millennial reign of Christ. He will have an earthly temple built in Jerusalem then.

Your theories are so far from the normal teachings of the church, I don't wish to go any further. I challenge you to just forget the dispensational teachings you have heard, and just study the bible. It is like you are trying to compare post trib doctrine with pretrib doctrine: of course we know these two are diametrically opposed and "neither the twain shall meet."

Let me ask you: do you read in Revelation that there is a new heaven and a new earth before you read of the Holy City descending?

Maybe your bible is different.

One more thought: did you forget that Jesus stood in the upper room AFTER He rose from the dead and received His glorified body, and the disciples did not burn up? Did you forget how He walked with the two on the road, and they did not burn up? OF COURSE Jesus will be on earth for His Mellennial Reign. He will appoint David as the King. I am not sure he will be here on earth 24/7, but He will certainly come and be anointed as it is written: He will RULE with a rod of iron.

LAMAD

I have no ulterior motive neither earthly agendas all I am concerned about is the word of God and what is testified.

Just to reply on what you have stated on how "The Lord appeared in his post resurrection body and that no one was burnt up."

The Lord himself said that I must go before I can send the Comforter who will be both advocate on my behalf and represent me on earth. He said that the Holy Spirit will always be with the believer.

It is important to listen to what Jesus said:

John 16:7

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:19

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

The Lord is not coming back because the Holy Ghost is here to stay as advocate and representative on his behalf. The only person that comes riding on a horse and destroys his enemies and makes believers out of the non believers, by a display of power and aggression is the devil himself pretending to be Messiah, who is the little horn of Daniel's revelation.,

Jesus said to the faithful that the world will never see me again and that the prince of this world is coming after I leave for good, because I am sending the Comforter and I can no longer come back, because the Holy Ghost from now on is the advocate that will never leave you and who represents me in Spirit on earth.

John 14:30-31

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD IS COMING, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

The Holy Spirit is here to stay and will have his men as the last men standing on earth, before the destruction of the world by the judgement vials.

Revelation 5:6

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH.

THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IS HERE TO STAY THEREFORE RULING OUT ANY EARTHLY MANIFESTATION OF MESSIAH.

Obviously there is something terribly wrong in your interpretation, because Jesus SAID He would return. In just a couple of minutes of searching I found 59 verses about Jesus coming again to the earth. They are there if you care to look. The question is, can you read them without preconceived glasses on?

Here is one of my favorites:

Zechariah 14:3-5King James Version (KJV)

³ Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

⁵ And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This will happen on the day that He returns. Did you forget about these verses? it is HIS return to earth:

Rev. 19

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

¹² His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

¹³ And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

¹⁶ And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

¹⁸ That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

¹⁹ And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

²⁰ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

²¹ And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

These two passages, the one in Zech. and in Rev. detail His return to earth. There are perhaps 50 more verses that speak of His coming. I am very puzzled then that you struggle so with the idea that HE WILL COME AGAIN.

THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IS HERE TO STAY THEREFORE RULING OUT ANY EARTHLY MANIFESTATION OF MESSIAH.

WHO SAID? That is only your theory. OF COURSE He will stay with those in whom He has indwelt, but Paul tells us the day is coming when those who are ALIVE will be changed and John 14 tells us we will be escorted to heaven. So the Holy Spirit will certainly GO WITH those who are caught up to heaven.

He came on the day of Pentecost so that those IN CHRIST could be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is my belief that on the day of the rapture, He will return back to the throne room of heaven, and life here will be just as it was before He came, for the church age will be OVER. You do realize, don't you, that this age we are living in will soon END?

I love those verses on the Holy Spirit, for I had been born again for 13 years and knew NOTHING about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Thank GOD I started dating a girl who went to such a church. My first time there I sensed something I had never seen before: the anointing! I WANTED IT! I wanted HIM! So I was filled with the Holy Spirit when I was 20 years old. I work hard to STAY filled. But the day will come when I will be caught up, and He will go with me.

LAMAD

Jesus did not say he will return in the post resurrection body he arose with, his return is in context to making his abode with us in spirit, when he told his disciples, you in me and I in you.

Jesus said that the world will never see him again.

The versus that has The Lord returning are all taken out of context. By now you should have ample testimony from me to discern that the post resurrection form of The Lord and the Holy Spirit can not be both present on earth, but you see you are not willing to accept this truth, because you have already committed yourself to a doctrine that is based on hear say and a misinterpretation of scripture. The perfect example is the one of not knowing the day or hour The Lord comes. The other is all eyes will see him, the other is as one other person quoted from Acts 1.

You need basic 101 theology lesson to build a solid foundation of scripture rather than using one liners quoted from scripture to fit your theories. For example your willing to ignore that throughout scripture the central theme is to be faithful onto death. Saint Paul puts it plainly that to be away from the earthly body is to be present with The Lord. This very simple distinction is totally ignored because it doesn't fit your theory. Listen death is what separates us from being reunited with The Lord and we need to enter in through the resurrection to be clothed with the celestial body from heaven in order to be presented before The Lord the second time without sin. You can not come into the kingdom of Christ with your earthly flesh.

I tell you many are treating this earthly coming like Santa Claus and I tell you the truth Santa Claus will come. Did I spell it correctly, I said Satan Claus will come, you hear friends. The prince of the world is the one who is coming. The real Messiah is drawing you onto him, where he is there you will also be. This can only be possible if you as TESTATORS, first die, then be judged to be counted worthy to be clothed with the heavenly spirit body and then and only then can you enter the wedding supper of the lamb.

So much knowledge has been given to you, please unlearn what you think you know and become like a child and learn again with an open mind.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Defending the Name

[Defending the Name]

I will point you to very important versus form scripture that explains how believers in huge numbers are coming to Christ. Read these versus carefully, before I point out what they mean to the believers:

Revelation 7:13-15

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

John is asked by the elder what are these people arrayed in white, who are the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Rev. 7:9)?

John doesn't know, so he asked the elder to explain it to him.

The elder says these are ALL which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. As a result they NOW are before the throne of God and the Lamb dwells among them.

It is clear that these are the gentile nations throughout the new covenant age that the everlasting gospel was preached to and they believed. What else happened to them after they believed in The Lord?

They drank from the bitter cup of Christ by going through the Great Tribulation. This means that they faced all kinds of adversity throughout their lives. These are Christians throughout the centuries since the gospel was preached to them. What happen at the end of their life long adversity?

THEY DIED!

The verse states that they washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, meaning they drank from the bitter cup of Christ and were faithful onto death. This is an idiom portraying that these huge multitudes are martyred for the sake of Christ. Once they are martyred, this means they died, then and only then are they brought before the throne of God and in the presence of The Lord who NOW dwells among them.

What is one thing which symbolises the state of their being?

They are ALL wearing WHITE RESURRECTION ROBES for the wedding supper of the Lamb.

It is simple to understand that this great multitude first dies, then they are clothed in white (angelic/white cloud) post resurrection robes, then and only then are they brought before the throne of God and in the presence of The Lord.

What is the central theme of Christianity?

To be faithful onto death.

Where is the context?

Everywhere throughout scripture.

Here is the central theme declared in Revelation of John also:

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, THAT SHOULD BE KILLED AS THEY WERE, SHOULD BE FULFILLED.

THE CENTRAL THEME IS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL

All faithful must drink from the bitter cup of Christ and they have to DIE in Christ, in order for the blood covenant to be consummated for that believer/witness.

The blood covenant condition for every believer is fulfilled by the death of the witness, and this is the condition of the blood covenant, that we must first die before we are raised. For The Lord said I will raise you up on THE LAST DAY. That is your last day and hour in the earthly fleshly body.

Hebrews 9:15-17

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL INHERITANCE.

For where a testament is, THERE MUST ALSO OF NECESSITY BE THE DEATH OF THE TESTATOR. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

FOR IT IS WRITTEN A TESTAMENT IS IN FORCE AFTER YOU DIE. YOU NEED TO SIGN OF FROM THIS EARTHLY REALM WITH YOUR OWN BLOOD. THIS IS THE BLOOD COVENANT, BLOOD TO BLOOD.

[Last Daze]

 

Acts 1:

⁹ And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. ¹⁰ And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. ¹¹ They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

What other versus do you have to tie scripture with scripture or is that only a one liner quoted out of context. Think about it, where is the back born of your theology to make a claim based on one verse alone, really come on think about!

The chances are, that you have not understood the context of that verse you just quoted me.

Do you really want to know the context of the verse?

 

I think that's pretty straightforward and clear.  Not really interested in arcane spiritualizations.  My theological back born is just fine.  Thank you.