should CHRISTIANS OWN WEAPONS OR FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE SYSTEM?

[gdemoss]

Not at all-the verse does not say that. But, it is an act of violence-you don't have to kill anyone or maim them for it to be violence.

agreed.

I have reason to believe that the whip was only used to drive the animals out as whips are customary for that use.  The two other accounts written in Matt and Luke do not mention the whip nor the animals in the manner Johns account does.  And when Jesus addresses those who sold doves he tells them to take their stuff and go.  Whips are not used on birds in cages.  

Therefore I have drawn the conclusion that it is not wise to use Jesus and his whip to convince people of self defense being OK.

You disagree no?

Actually, I agree he didn't strike anyone with it-and my point wasnt to justify self defense, just to point out that violence in and of itself was not wrong, as Jesus even used it. Once established that violence in and of itself isn't nearly wrong, we can get into what is an appropriate show of violence and what is not.

 

As far as the multiple accounts there's 2 theories on that, first its different perspectives from different people, and second and this is what I lean towards, without going off track, is that Jesus cleared out the temple on 2 separate occasions the first time he used no whip, and the second time he really lost it and grabbed the whip. It was like "didn't I already chase you guys out once!" 

 Thanks for clarifying Pat.  I have no problem agreeing that violence is sometimes an acceptable means.  Though I cannot agree with the second theory about Jesus using a whip the second time around as John's account deals with the beginning of his ministry where the other two acounts are at the end.

As I have said before, you have helped me greatly in this area of faith.  I am not above the use of violent force but I am still unsettled as to claiming any certain understanding of what to choose and when.  My understanding is still being deepend as I grow in the faith.

I underatand how touchy the subject becomes when the strength of ones faith is contrasted with whether a person feels the need to be armed or not.  I do beleive there is a certain element of faith behind both positions.  One who believes God would have them unarmed and rely upon his protection and care instead of carnal weapons must exercise their faith whenever situations present themselves.  Equally true is the one who believes God has called him to bear arms and be ready to use them when necessary as Gods chosen weapon against evil.

I used to believe it had to be either or but I am seeing that their is a truth that seems to be somewhere in the middle of two extremes.  Ecclesiastes comes to mind.  There is a time for everything under the sun.  Thank God that I have not been placed in a position to have to make that decision. And may God help you determine whether or not you need to use violent force to achieve his ends. Peace.

 

[enoob57]

Ok pat.  I'm really not trying to provoke you, but I am trying to discuss if we sometimes read into scripture how we see the world, when God's ways are not our ways.  

 

Romans 14:1-4

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

 

 

I have no judgement of you or anyone owning weapons.  I have struggled to figure out what my interest here is, but I have come to understand it was when some posted judgmental posts about those who may not respond to danger in the same way.   I will allow that there is a good chance God calls you to different areas than He may call me to.  That is all I was hoping to express, though it took some serious contemplation of why I was taking the opposite view you had.  Another thread about "baiting" was recently introduced, and I had to consider if that was my motive, yet it was not.  While I did read your arguments, they did not convince me your view is proven by scripture.  I am inclined to believe you are exactly where God has put you, yet we should be careful not to expect God to make us all the same.  

 

Thank you for discussing with me Pat, I don't feel I have anything to add here as have posted somewhat randomly and need to study some of the passages.  Usually when someone says they are done with a thread they come right back lol!

There is a narrow path and few that find for it is one of self denial, suffering and humility... those that walk it
will find that it is hard  to the point of impossible to remain on it- here is where we leave the remaining supports
of this place and step upon the Word of God to hold us as aliens being despised and rejected of men...
When one sits down before The One without begin or end placing 'ALL' else as secondary to any importance,
knowing there is no possible error in doing so, this becomes >only the begin walk< with a Perfect Being of Father,
Son and Spirit... 
        Those of you reading this thread you can see the spirit that comes against us using disdain and acceptability
issues and even devaluating the person as a being- if a certain path they have accepted is not followed as they 
themselves do... they never stop and say what if I am wrong; what if I am being manipulated by a spirit of error;
what if it isn't the right response God is desiring of them. God does not say one word  that is not vitally important
to follow and the whole of His Word 'IS' the path we are to be on!
There are many considerations on this topic:
1. What are we really fighting for.
2. How will it increase the place of Grace we are in.
3. Is it the plain example of Jesus Who walked here as our 'ONLY' perfect example.
4. Did others follow in His example.
5. What did the early church do under persecution -how did it look in witness.
6. What is the ultimate example of our action.
7. Am I acceptable in what I do by many or few (few that find).
8. Does The Word say a specific about fighting of any kind now and here.
9. Is there a priority check list given us by God for our loyalties and will those loyalties be tested.

The Father of our faith, so said by God, 'Abraham' was asked to give the life of his son in violent death... God clearly
shows us that the heart had to be prepared to sacrifice that which is most dear to show what is dearest to us. Those
who have sealed off any possibility of God requiring this of them because God wouldn't ask such a thing- The Word sets
before you to accept or deny but will be the judge of the action and intent of the heart in the coming before the Living
Word -Jesus The Christ...  Love, Steven

[CompleteAgape]

On 8/7/2015 at 0:01 PM, Ezra said:

War and self-defence are two entirely separate issues. And if the Lord told his disciples to purchase swords, that would have been for self-defence.

 

God does not disapprove of war.  Indeed, when Christ returns to earth for the second time, He will destroy all His enemies at the battle of Armageddon (Rev 19), and later on at the battle of Gog and Magog (Rev 20).  There is such a thing as righteous warfare, and we see Michael and his holy angels at war with Satan and his evil angels (Rev 12).  

 

Christians are presently in a spiritual battle with Satan and his evil forces (Eph 6), therefore God has given to us "the weapons of our warfare" which are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.

 

At present Radical Islam is at war with the West, and the only remedy for terrorists is "termination with extreme prejudice".  Sometimes the only way to maintain peace is to deal with the enemy severely.

Revelation is not referring how we as Christians are to live.  God is clear through Jesus that He expects His people to love unconditionally and not retaliate, react with evil against evil.  Jesus explains why He told His disciples to purchase swords in the same scriptures.  This was to fulfill the prophecy that Jesus be among transgressors which He was as some of His disciples, apparently 2, had swords which made them enemies of the Romans.  This was not to fight otherwise why would 2 be enough to fight with?  Jesus punctuates His principle of nonviolence by rebuking Peter and healing the man's ear that he harmed with a sword.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, CompleteAgape said:

Jesus punctuates His principle of nonviolence by rebuking Peter and healing the man's ear that he harmed with a sword.

War and self-defense are two entirely separate issues.

 

[warrior12]

When a born again believer understands who his enemy is, there is not need for arms and ammunition.  There is nothing such as self-defense with a believer, for his battles are not his, but the Lord.  

 

[Jaydog1976]

7 hours ago, warrior12 said:

When a born again believer understands who his enemy is, there is not need for arms and ammunition.  There is nothing such as self-defense with a believer, for his battles are not his, but the Lord.  

 

So what about the self-defense mechanism God has put in all of us? Is that just a figment of our imagination? Of course it isn't. What you are saying is that I should just stand there and let someone who is trying to harm me or my family go at it without me doing fanything. God also created us to think and reason as well so you cannot negate that aspect either. I can almost guarantee you that if someone was trying to hurt you or your family would you defend yourself. 

I think it's interesting that believers will talk a big talk but when reality hits they do something completely opposite. I can just imagine God saying something like this to someone who just stood there and didn't defend themselves when they could have, "Hey didn't I create you with a brain? Why in the world didn't you use it!". ?

Edited November 21, 2016 by Jaydog1976

[warrior12]

57 minutes ago, Jaydog1976 said:

So what about the self-defense mechanism God has put in all of us? Is that just a figment of our imagination? Of course it isn't. What you are saying is that I should just stand there and let someone who is trying to harm me or my family go at it without me doing fanything. God also created us to think and reason as well so you cannot negate that aspect either. I can almost guarantee you that if someone was trying to hurt you or your family would you defend yourself. 

I think it's interesting that believers will talk a big talk but when reality hits they do something completely opposite. I can just imagine God saying something like this to someone who just stood there and didn't defend themselves when they could have, "Hey didn't I create you with a brain? Why in the world didn't you use it!". ?

You pray, don't you.  You pray in the expectation that your God who promises his protection and guidance in this life would do so.  It is all divine and how you translate this prayer to your earthly living is how you would live your life.   We can do like Israel and go before him, or we can as he says and wait upon him.  If we behave like the secular world, then the Lord admonitions become secondary to ours.   

Circumstances can come up us in many diverse ways, and your protection that you rely on would be of no use, as it would be carnal.   As much as you prepare the thing can jam, not fire ect.  What's the odds, well you never know as each situation may be different.  My brother, the Lord wants you to have complete trust in his ability to see you through this life.  Tragedy does occur to  decent christians and we don't know why the Lord allows it, but at the end of the day his words, are for us to be faithful to the end.   Paul did give some details as to put on the full armor of God in Ephesians.

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by warrior12

[enoob57]

Look folks it really boils down to this simple place

Philippians 1:21 (KJV)

[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

It is really this simple ... Love, Steven

[Guest BacKaran]

Give to Cesar what is Cesar's and obey those who rule over you.

I won't fight if the us govt tells the armed services to round up Christians but I will be prepared for a wanna be hood or career criminal who breaks into my home to harm me.

Should he force me to use my NRA approved tool of force,  I'd use it and if he was dying, I'd ask him to trust in Christ for forgiveness and as His Lord and Savior.

Life is but a vapor and everyone has until their last breathe to call on Jesus.

I'm prepared, not scared.

[hmbld]

10 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Look folks it really boils down to this simple place

Philippians 1:21 (KJV)

[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

It is really this simple ... Love, Steven

I hadn't read you last post way back in August, till now someone started this thread back up again.

I'm jumping up and down on the inside!!!

I have to ask, what happened to the mind boggling code I'm used to reading from you!

Love ya brother enoob!