Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[Last Daze]

Yeshua HaMashiach was never not eternal. He humbled Hiimself to die, He gave up His Own Life for us, but death never had power over Him. Death could not keep Him, ever. He has always been immortal.

To say that Jesus has always been immortal is not true.  He died on the cross for our sins.  By definition, immortals can not die.  It's because He had power over death that He became immortal after He died, the first fruits of those raised immortal.

I'm not talking about the eternal Word of God.  At some point in time, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us as John 1:14 states.  His body is what died and became immortal.

[Last Daze]

Hi Last Daze,

I hear what you are suggesting about the 24 elders. However have you considered that what we are seeing there in Rev. 4 & 5 is a pictorial presentation of Jesus receiving His `throne,` His authority from the Father.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I overcame & sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Christ was already at the Father`s right hand interceding & maturing the Body of Christ, in Rev. ch. 1 - 3. Thus what we are looking at in ch. 4 & 5 are the king priests, (the Body of Christ) taking part in the investiture of the Son of Man with all power, all authority, glory, & honour.

And what a `day` that will be!  And I certainly don`t want to miss that.

Marilyn. 

If that's true then where was Jesus when the angel asked the question?

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

It makes more sense to me that Rev 4-5 established the worthiness of Christ to take back the governance of earth from Satan the usurper since He entered the world legitimately and overcame it.  The point being made is that before Christ's death and resurrection, not a single soul anywhere was found worthy to open the scroll.  It uses a "before and after" scene to demonstrate that point.  Otherwise, where was Jesus when the angel asked "Who is worthy?"

I'll leave it at that.  Thanks for the latitude, Omegaman.

[Rev2015]

 

Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago.

If we keep in mind that the New Covenant supersedes all other covenants with men in the past, then it follows that these 24 elders are not OT patriarchs or OT elders of Israel, but actual church elders who have distinguished themselves in their service to Christ in local assemblies. Since the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church, it also follows that these 24 elders will be gathered around God's throne eternally. Since 12 is the number of Divine Government (hence 12 thrones for 12 apostles ruling the 12 tribes of Israel), 12 x 2 = 24 indicates that these elders are somehow connected with God's government in His eternal Kingdom. That they have crowns on their heads further confirms this.

Hello Ezra,

I agree, your thoughts are not only possible but probable. I'm not dogmatic, the identities of the elders isn't revealed. I believe they could be pre-flood or old testament patriarchs, but I agree your summation is valid.

[Rev2015]

Just a note to the posters and readers here. I have been letting this thread run quite a bit off course, time to real it back in some. The thread has a title "Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times". It started with a list of such things, and my hope was that the thread would stick to those things.

Of course, it is in keeping with the spirit of the thread to mention and discuss other things that the Bible does say . . . ,
but discussion of the larger and broad subject of eschatology, where we bring in all sorts of theories and interpretations, was not the intention. Please try to limit the posts to things that ate strictly said explicitly, and not things that have been spun and removed from their meanings in context etc.

There are other threads where other things are discussed, and you may always start your own for your own personal take on eschatology - here, no private interpretations - try to stick with what the Bible actually says - assume words mean things, especially words in the Bible.

Hello Omega,

 

I believe the comments in reference to my initial post to you regarding #7 on your list may have caused the sideways motion in the threads direction, my apologies, this wasn't my intent. I guess some topics are held close to some's belief system, and when something new is presented to consider, some may fill strongly to defend that core element establishing their system of belief if it disagrees with their exegesis.

[Sister]

 

Hi Sister,

I think you have a good case given that the period of joy of Rev 11:10 is there in the text. However, I wonder whether you would follow through with the implication of your view. Paul was relating the "peace and safety" cry of 1 Th 5:3 to the "times and dates" (5:1) of the rapture he had been discussing in ch 4. Therefore, if that cry rings out during those 3 1/2 days of Rev 11:10, it should also follow that the subsequent rapture of the two witnesses symbolises the rapture of the church. Is that what you have in mind?  

Hi ghtan

No I was not coming from that angle, but explaining why and when they were sending presents to each other.

The peace and safety cry of Thess 5:3 could be when the false prophet has marked everyone, and there is a false peace before the storm hits (7 trumpets) which is different from the time the world is sending gifts over the 2 witnesses being killed. This would be right before the coming.  The resurrection of the saints will come after the two witnesses are brought back to life as far as I can tell when their testimony is finished.

[other one]

keep in mind that the side things many times need to be done to make sure people are on the same page for the main discussion.   While I have not been involved in this thread to any real extent, I do read most of them.....  I'm glad you diverted for a bit.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Just a note to the posters and readers here. I have been letting this thread run quite a bit off course, time to real it back in some. The thread has a title "Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times". It started with a list of such things, and my hope was that the thread would stick to those things.

Of course, it is in keeping with the spirit of the thread to mention and discuss other things that the Bible does say . . . ,
but discussion of the larger and broad subject of eschatology, where we bring in all sorts of theories and interpretations, was not the intention. Please try to limit the posts to things that ate strictly said explicitly, and not things that have been spun and removed from their meanings in context etc.

There are other threads where other things are discussed, and you may always start your own for your own personal take on eschatology - here, no private interpretations - try to stick with what the Bible actually says - assume words mean things, especially words in the Bible.

Hello Omega,

 

I believe the comments in reference to my initial post to you regarding #7 on your list may have caused the sideways motion in the threads direction, my apologies, this wasn't my intent. I guess some topics are held close to some's belief system, and when something new is presented to consider, some may fill strongly to defend that core element establishing their system of belief if it disagrees with their exegesis.

Thanks for commenting Rev, I know these things happen without intention sometimes, I am guilty myself. I wasn't trying to point and wag a finger at anyone, just hoping to steer the thread back on course. Your comment about how people react when something threatens the integrity of a belief they hold, is noted and I think an accurate assessment. 

While I did not start these threads on things that the Bible does and does not say to cause controversy, I knew they were never-the-less, controversial topics. When people respond with their opposing ideas and passionately defend them, I actually think that is a good thing.

Getting the ideas out on the table, let's those who have not previously looked critically at various positions, see the quality and the quantity of the evidence or scriptural basis of various positions, instead of just accepting what they have heard and assumed for a long time.

I can say something, you can say something, others say things as well, and even if we do not change our minds, we at least contribute to the understanding of all who read these threads, as to why people believe what they believe.

It is my hope that this leads to better understanding, less misunderstanding, and the development of critical analysis, that may prevent deception, in a time where deception will be increasing as the day approaches.

May we all have ears to hear, what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev. 2:29)

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omegaman,

A big Oooops there. Sorry bro. I got caught up off track. Thanks for the gentle reminder to us all.

Marilyn.

[Rev2015]

Just a note to the posters and readers here. I have been letting this thread run quite a bit off course, time to real it back in some. The thread has a title "Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times". It started with a list of such things, and my hope was that the thread would stick to those things.

Of course, it is in keeping with the spirit of the thread to mention and discuss other things that the Bible does say . . . ,
but discussion of the larger and broad subject of eschatology, where we bring in all sorts of theories and interpretations, was not the intention. Please try to limit the posts to things that ate strictly said explicitly, and not things that have been spun and removed from their meanings in context etc.

There are other threads where other things are discussed, and you may always start your own for your own personal take on eschatology - here, no private interpretations - try to stick with what the Bible actually says - assume words mean things, especially words in the Bible.

Hello Omega,

 

I believe the comments in reference to my initial post to you regarding #7 on your list may have caused the sideways motion in the threads direction, my apologies, this wasn't my intent. I guess some topics are held close to some's belief system, and when something new is presented to consider, some may fill strongly to defend that core element establishing their system of belief if it disagrees with their exegesis.

Thanks for commenting Rev, I know these things happen without intention sometimes, I am guilty myself. I wasn't trying to point and wag a finger at anyone, just hoping to steer the thread back on course. Your comment about how people react when something threatens the integrity of a belief they hold, is noted and I think an accurate assessment. 

While I did not start these threads on things that the Bible does and does not say to cause controversy, I knew they were never-the-less, controversial topics. When people respond with their opposing ideas and passionately defend them, I actually think that is a good thing.

Getting the ideas out on the table, let's those who have not previously looked critically at various positions, see the quality and the quantity of the evidence or scriptural basis of various positions, instead of just accepting what they have heard and assumed for a long time.

I can say something, you can say something, others say things as well, and even if we do not change our minds, we at least contribute to the understanding of all who read these threads, as to why people believe what they believe.

It is my hope that this leads to better understanding, less misunderstanding, and the development of critical analysis, that may prevent deception, in a time where deception will be increasing as the day approaches.

May we all have ears to hear, what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev. 2:29)

Your welcome,

By chance, have you had the time to reread my initial post regarding #7 on your list, concerning Matthew 24:36?

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

Your welcome,

By chance, have you had the time to reread my initial post regarding #7 on your list, concerning Matthew 24:36?

I am sorry Rev, I have been very distracted lately: Can you point me to the specific post your are referring to?

At the upper right of it, you can click the share this post thingie, and get the link to it.