Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[Rev2015]

I read through your list in your initial post. I agree mostly with the realization these events will absolutely happen, but we may disagree on the timing and details on how the events will unfold, and this is perfectly fine. I will critique number 7 on your list though, for you to consider this thought, and opinion of it. In my humbled opinion Matthew 24:36, is the most misinterpreted verse in the Bible, simply because verse 36 is always read by itself and never quoted or understood in context of the verses before it. If you read the verses in context with verse 36, you can clearly see the day no one knows but the Father only is revealed. Neither the day of the resurrection and rapture, or the day of Christ’s physical return are mentioned, however the day the heavens and earth pass away is identified in the context when reading verses 34-36.

Matthew 24:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So if you are reading in context, when CHRIST says, “but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only“, and you ask what day and hour, where in the context of what we are reading is there any indication, Christ is referring to the resurrection and rapture or His physical return, when in verse 35, He reveals the day. The day the heavens and earth pass away is identified in context as the day no one knows but Father only. This day is described in detail as a judgment event by Peter and in the last chapters of Revelation as well. This day happens after the 1000 year millennium rule of Christ.

As for a pre-trib resurrection and rapture. I believe a study of the 24 elders in Revelation will clearly indicate to a student of prophetic studies, the event happens before the 1st seal is open. If you adhere to the translation from Textus Receptus, the 24 elders are identified as redeemed men, and have been given their crowns which they cast before the throne of GOD, apparently from the Bema judgment, and I’d assume from this, they have their resurrected bodies. The question to then ask is, are they present in the throne room of heaven before the 1st seal is open?? And if so, the resurrection and rapture, in my humbled opinion has to be a pre-trib event.

The 24 elders existed before Jesus ascended.

No one will have their redeemed (immortal) bodies before Jesus returns.

Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago.

I didn't say or indicate the elders received their glorified bodies before Christ. The 24 elders will receive their bodies when the trump sounds and all the dead in Christ rise (first), and then those believers alive will be raptured immediately afterwards. My point is as scripture indicates, the 24 elders are present in the throne room with their crowns and glorified bodies as redeemed resurrected men before the 1st seal is opened by Christ.

 

[Last Daze]

I read through your list in your initial post. I agree mostly with the realization these events will absolutely happen, but we may disagree on the timing and details on how the events will unfold, and this is perfectly fine. I will critique number 7 on your list though, for you to consider this thought, and opinion of it. In my humbled opinion Matthew 24:36, is the most misinterpreted verse in the Bible, simply because verse 36 is always read by itself and never quoted or understood in context of the verses before it. If you read the verses in context with verse 36, you can clearly see the day no one knows but the Father only is revealed. Neither the day of the resurrection and rapture, or the day of Christ’s physical return are mentioned, however the day the heavens and earth pass away is identified in the context when reading verses 34-36.

Matthew 24:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So if you are reading in context, when CHRIST says, “but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only“, and you ask what day and hour, where in the context of what we are reading is there any indication, Christ is referring to the resurrection and rapture or His physical return, when in verse 35, He reveals the day. The day the heavens and earth pass away is identified in context as the day no one knows but Father only. This day is described in detail as a judgment event by Peter and in the last chapters of Revelation as well. This day happens after the 1000 year millennium rule of Christ.

As for a pre-trib resurrection and rapture. I believe a study of the 24 elders in Revelation will clearly indicate to a student of prophetic studies, the event happens before the 1st seal is open. If you adhere to the translation from Textus Receptus, the 24 elders are identified as redeemed men, and have been given their crowns which they cast before the throne of GOD, apparently from the Bema judgment, and I’d assume from this, they have their resurrected bodies. The question to then ask is, are they present in the throne room of heaven before the 1st seal is open?? And if so, the resurrection and rapture, in my humbled opinion has to be a pre-trib event.

The 24 elders existed before Jesus ascended.

No one will have their redeemed (immortal) bodies before Jesus returns.

Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago.

I didn't say or indicate the elders received their glorified bodies before Christ. The 24 elders will receive their bodies when the trump sounds and all the dead in Christ rise (first), and then those believers alive will be raptured immediately afterwards. My point is as scripture indicates, the 24 elders are present in the throne room with their crowns and glorified bodies as redeemed resurrected men before the 1st seal is opened by Christ.

 

So, Revelation 4 shows the spirits of the 24 elders? And Revelation 5 shows them immortal?

[Omegaman 3.0]

Shiloh357 Said:

"The point is that the absence of the word evangelist, doesn't mean that the 144,000 witnesses are not evangelists. That's my point about the word "grandfather."   Saying that there are grandfathers even though the word doesn't appear in Scripture, isn't adding to the text, and the same applies here to the word evangelist.   In fact, why are they are called "witnesses?"  What is it that they are to witness to the world?   Why are they called the Lord's servants? In what capacity do the serve?   For what purpose were they sealed and separated unto the Lord?   Why is there no mention of the Church as the one that evangelizes the world in the Tribulation? "

My Reply: 

Why are they called witnesses? Great questions Shiloh. Why do you call them witnesses? That is what I have been trying to get you to explain? Why do you add ideas to the Bible, and then claim the Bible says them. I do not think you are being intentionally deceptive, but you are mistaken, perhaps you have thought that they are witnesses for so long, that you believe that the idea was actually in the Bible!

Now, maybe I am ignorant here, and am not aware of some passages regarding the 144,000, but the passages which I am aware of, are in Rev 7 and Rev 14. I will put them here for all to see, and let others judge whether the Bible says that the 144,000 are called witnesses, evangelists, preachers or similar wording, or if that is just one of your additions.

Actually, I do not even know why anyone would need to claim they are witnesses. The only reason I can think of, was that in some point in time, during the evolution of the pre-tribulation rapture theory, that someone got the bright idea that the restrainer of 2 Thess 2, must be the Holy Spirit. The claim was made that the Church was absent during the tribulation, and since the Holy Spirit indwells individual believers, then when the church was caught up, the Holy Spirit had no place to live (on Earth) anymore. So, the Holy Spirit was missing in action.

At some point, some pre-tribbers might have realized that since it is common belief that people do not come to belief unless the Spirit draws them, and realizing that from other passages that there are clearly believers in Jesus in the tribulation at some point, there has to be a way to get the message to the unsaved during the tribulation. So, there were these 144,000 Jews available, with not a lot of information about what they do. The were assigned the role of being witnesses, not by the Bible, but by well meaning people who just assume things the Bible does not say (the theme of a few of my posts ans threads)

Now, I have no way of knowing it that is how it came to pass that so many like you, have come to believe that the 144K are evangelistic Jews, but it has come to pass. 

I have already discredited your faulty "grandfather" analogy, so let's move beyond that and let the people see, what the Bible actually says about the 144,000:

Revelation 7

  4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

Revelation 14

 1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Now, in these two passages, it nowhere says one thing about witnessing, preaching, evangelizing, or any similar wording. I ask any who are reading this post:

Am I wrong about that?

So, if I am correct there, then there are a couple of possibilities. One of the possibilities, is that there is another passage, that speaks of these 144,000 as evangelists. If that is the case, please produce the verse(s) that say(s) this. 

Another possibility is, that the idea that these men are evangelists, comes not from scripture, but from imagination or speculation, or as I have been saying, it is an idea ADDED TO SCRIPTURE, NOT FROM SCRIPTURE.

There is a third option I suppose. It is theoretically possible, that certain select people, such as you Shiloh, have received this as a direct revelation from God. However, even if the is the case, the idea is still not from scripture.

Can anyone think of another possibility?

I, am willing to be wrong, and to admit that I am wrong, as soon as someone posts a verse stating the the 144,000 are evangelists. I ask, do people who believe that the 144,000 are evangelists, have the integrity to admit that this is not in scripture? (actually a few have, thank you) To do so, does not deprive one of the right to believe what they wish, but no one should not say that scripture declares that, if scripture does not. There is this technical term in theology called "horse feathers", someone more blunt would even call it lying.

Lying about what scripture says, is something to be repented of. I hate to be cornered into being confrontational about this, but some one should be I think. Perpetuating untruths about scripture, deceives others. A deception on this point, is probably not a huge deal. However, I am concerned about the spiritual damage it can do to a person, who insists upon propagating untrue claims about what scripture says. What can that lead to? I suggest that if one can speak dishonestly about scripture on one point, then they can deceive themselves to do it again. What can be gained from that, is that about saving face? That does not work. Saving face is recognizing one's own error, admitting it, repenting, and moving on. Failing to do so, only demonstrates that a person is not one to be trusted on scriptural matters.

That, was a hard paragraph to write, so I am going to move on to another related point. For the sake of argument, let's say that the the 144,000 are evangelists. If we look at Revelation 14, we will notice that that passage, is not even during the tribulation. In that passage, Jesus is already standing on Earth, that is not during the tribulation, and certainly also, is not  pre-trib event.

I would be interested in seeing the thoughts of many on this post. I am sad that this relatively inconsequential aspect of eschatological thought, has led to this unfortunate outcome. I hope that I can be shown to be wrong, that the scripture does call the 144,000 "evangelists". I just wish that if that is the case, that it would have been shown long before now, there was plenty of opportunity.

[Ezra]

What I discovered was that the word was "aiōnas ", and it occurs 32 times in the New Testament, Thirty one of those times, the translators rendered it as a word denoting long periods of time. Strong's (not the last word in Greek) simply says: "a space of time, an age ". So, I wonder why did they decide to, all of a sudden, translate this to "worlds".

Here's the reason why the KJV has "worlds" in Heb 11:3:

2. by metonymy of the container for the contained, οἱ αἰῶνες denotes the worlds, the universe, i. e. the aggregate of things contained in time (on the plural cf. Winers Grammar, 176 (166); Buttmann, 24 (21)): Hebrews 1:2; Hebrews 11:3; and (?) 1 Timothy 1:17; (Revelation 15:3WH text; cf. Psalm 144:13 (); Tobit 13:6, 10; Sir. 36:22; Philo de plant. Noe § 12 twice;de mundo § 7; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 18, 7; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 61, 2 [ET]; 35, 3 [ET] (πατήρτῶν αἰώνων); 55, 6 [ET] (Θεός τῶναἰώνων); Apostolic Constitutions 7, 34; see Abbot in Journal Society for Biblical Literature etc. i., p. 106 n.). So αἰών in Wis. 13:9 Wis. 14:6 Wis. 18:4; the same use occurs in the Talmud, Chaldee, Syriac, Arabic; cf. Bleek, Hebraerbr. ii., 1, p. 36ff; Gesenius, Thesaurus ii., p. 1036; (cf. the use of οἱ αἰῶνες in the Fathers, equivalent to the world of mankind, e. g.Ignatius ad Eph. 19, 2 [ET]):

When we connect the fact that by faith we understand that God created all things out of nothing (as stated in Heb 11:3) then "worlds" is the only word which fits the context.  Once again we find that God guided the KJV translators in their choices of words (not as grammarians or linguists but as spiritual men discerning things of the Spirit). Furthermore, it is logical to believe that in a universe as vast as ours, there will be a multitude of inhabited worlds in eternity (of which we presently know nothing).

[Ezra]

Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago.

If we keep in mind that the New Covenant supersedes all other covenants with men in the past, then it follows that these 24 elders are not OT patriarchs or OT elders of Israel, but actual church elders who have distinguished themselves in their service to Christ in local assemblies. Since the New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church, it also follows that these 24 elders will be gathered around God's throne eternally. Since 12 is the number of Divine Government (hence 12 thrones for 12 apostles ruling the 12 tribes of Israel), 12 x 2 = 24 indicates that these elders are somehow connected with God's government in His eternal Kingdom. That they have crowns on their heads further confirms this.

[peacemakerIND]

I am strongly believing that Bible is given strong proofs and prophecies on end times.. 

not only end times, Bible is given the information on past, present and future matters too

Need to study with careful mind,.. I agree with Brother Ezra writing.. 

[Montana Marv]

The 144,000 are sealed during the 70th Week.  They do their work during the 1000 years; which is to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and to sing a new song before the Throne, before the four living creatures and before the elders.  They are the first fruits (possibly out of Israel) to God and the Lamb.  That is all the information given about the duties of the 144,000.  Do they have a resurrected body??  Scripture does not say, for they were purchased from among men.  They come out of the 70th Week.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ghtan]

ghtan

 Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 Revelation 11:5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

  Revelation 11:6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

  Revelation 11:7   And when they shall ***have finished their testimony****, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and ***kill them****.

  Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

  Revelation 11:9   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations ***shall see their dead bodies three days and an half****, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

  Revelation 11:10   And they that dwell upon the earth ****shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another****; because ***these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth***.

Revelation 11:11   And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

  Revelation 11:12   And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

  Revelation 11:13   And ***the same hour*** was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
 

 Jeremiah 51:39   In ***their heat*** I will make ***their feasts***, and I will make them drunken, ***that they may rejoice****, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Hi Sister, where do you fit the battle of Armageddon into the above sequence?

 

What is curious though is v 3. If it were referring to the Second Coming, and we know that the armies of the world will be gathered at Armageddon to make WAR against Jesus (Rev 19:19), why on earth would they be shouting "Peace and Safety" of all things?! 

ghtan

 Revelation 11:3   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 Revelation 11:5   And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

  Revelation 11:6   These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

  Revelation 11:7   And when they shall ***have finished their testimony****, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and ***kill them****.

  Revelation 11:8   And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

  Revelation 11:9   And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations ***shall see their dead bodies three days and an half****, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

  Revelation 11:10   And they that dwell upon the earth ****shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another****; because ***these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth***.

Revelation 11:11   And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

  Revelation 11:12   And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

  Revelation 11:13   And ***the same hour*** was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
 

 Jeremiah 51:39   In ***their heat*** I will make ***their feasts***, and I will make them drunken, ***that they may rejoice****, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Hi Sister, where do you fit the battle of Armageddon into the above sequence?

Hi ghtan

The armies only gather at Armageddon because of the 3 frog like expressions coming out of the mouth of the Dragon, the Beast, and the False Prophet. They will tell lies and make the armies come together to fight something big.

Christ comes on the 3rd Woe, so before this, the second woe consists of;

(1) this gathering at Armageddon

(2) the two witnesses killed,

(3) the earthquake killing 7 thousand men in Jerusalem, and the remnant being frightened giving glory to God.  Why?  because Jerusalem has been split by the earthquake, and this makes a route for them to escape.

So to recap, ...whilst the armies are assembled, all united now, getting ready to make war with whoever they've been told, ...they kill the 2 witnesses and they could very well be assembled there for this very purpose, because of them, I'm not sure what they've been told?, ...so they rejoice over their deaths and make merry for a few days (3 1/2 days)  becoming complacent, celebrating with the world, sending gifts, calling loved ones, because they probably blamed all the plagues on these two, ...now their ordeal is over...war finished, two trouble makers gone, about to pack up, and then bang, the earthquake comes, the Jews flee out Jerusalem, and then comes the 3rd woe, Christ who treads the winepress whilst they are still there gathered, unaware, with no where to escape, trapped in a very big valley.

This is how I can see it for now, unless I've got something wrong with that order.  I've been going over and over it, and it's only an educated guess.

 

Hi Sister,

I think you have a good case given that the period of joy of Rev 11:10 is there in the text. However, I wonder whether you would follow through with the implication of your view. Paul was relating the "peace and safety" cry of 1 Th 5:3 to the "times and dates" (5:1) of the rapture he had been discussing in ch 4. Therefore, if that cry rings out during those 3 1/2 days of Rev 11:10, it should also follow that the subsequent rapture of the two witnesses symbolises the rapture of the church. Is that what you have in mind?  

 

[Ezra]

Lying about what scripture says, is something to be repented of.

That is unnecessarily strong language for what can be considered an honest mistake.  Many Christians in the past have believed that those 144,000 are evangelists. That is simply an assumption, not necessarily a lie (since there was no deliberate attempt to mislead). 

As I have already pointed out in this thread and others, these are 144,000 redeemed Jews who are sealed and taken up (raptured) to Heaven. They do not evangelize on earth and since they do not die, they are not resurrected, but simply transformed and glorified (as will be the living saints at the Rapture).

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

Lying about what scripture says, is something to be repented of.

That is unnecessarily strong language for what can be considered an honest mistake.  Many Christians in the past have believed that those 144,000 are evangelists. That is simply an assumption, not necessarily a lie (since there was no deliberate attempt to mislead). 

 

Ezra, I thought about that a bit myself. As I indicated, it was not without hesitation that I said what I said, I consulted with others about it, and no one I talked to, deemed it inappropriate. The thing is Ezra, I would be totally in agreement with you - that people can honestly believe things, and make mistakes. certainly that probably happens to all of us at one time or another. I also said in that post, that I did not think that he was intentionally deceiving, but I meant that in a way that I do not think he is trying to convince people of something he believes to be false. He probably beleives they are evangelists. However, he goes beyond that my insisting that that is what the Bible says, and that is just not true, so their is a sense in which he is intentionally deceiving in my opinion. Saying that one believes that the Bible implies they are evangelists, is not lying, saying that the Bible says they are is.

What makes the distinction to me, is that there is no longer any excuse to maintain the position. It has been shown to be false, this error is known. Continuing to perpetuate this misinformation in the face of scriptural evidence, brings it to the level, where it is no longer a mistake, it is intentional. Plenty of opportunity was afforded to back off, and restate a position, like "It is my opinion" or "I have come to believe that . . .". When the question is asked: "Why are they called witnesses?" when they are not called witnesses, it is making the Bible say something that it does not say. Either that is deception, or it is extremely irresponsibe exegesis, when one cannot look at scripture, and honestly report what is says. How on earth are we supposed to give the benefit of a doubt to one flagrantly violating very basic rules of understanding any language, let alone the Bible. It is inappropriate, and it DOES call for repentance. If repentance is not made, then the decision to intentionally deceive is well established. 

Such a person cannot be trusted with the handling the word, because such a person is mishandling it. I don't think I can pretend that this is not happening, it needs to be called out. It is unfortunate, because so much correct knowledge has been forthcoming. I hate to see credibility ruined, but that path has been chosen.

I am not asking to be agreed with, I am asking for the Bible to be agreed with, and not misrepresented., Is that not appropriate? Even though it has come to this, if  we do see evidence of capitulation to what scriptures says, instead of substituting interpretation for what scripture says, I would be pleased to remove these posts of mine about this persistence in error.

I know that I have taken a strong position, even heavy handed, but I think it has come to that, when a person will not desist. People have been banned for unrepentant misrepresentation of facts. Am I supposed to be politically correct and find nice ways or representing what is going on here, like "factually challenged", or should I say it like it is. I think that I already played it down as far as I could, without misrepresenting what is going on.

If someone says things that are demonstrably erroneous, then they need to change their ways, and state their intention to change their ways. It is as simple as that. Perhaps, I hope, he has not read this yet, since he has not replied, but he was fllowing it really closely for a spell, we'll see what happens.

Thank you Ezra, never-the-less, for questioning my actions here, I think that is healthy, and anyone is always welcome to do so, and to disagree with me.