The powerless gospel of Calvinism

[Qnts2]

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Oh, that is okay, I have probably heard the term before and just forgot it. When I tried to sound it out, it seemed  more familiar. It is good to have terms,  fields have them, science, law, medicine, etc. and they are good to use. I often  forget myself that there are some people on the forums, who know  even less than I do, and I fail to be considerate of them, by following the wise intructions of Donald Barnhouse:

Get the hay down out of the loft, were the cows can get to it. Thanks.

My form of 'Calvinism' is pretty simple, so far.

1 God chose some to salvation in eternity, before anything was. Call that election, predestination, or what ever you want.

2 Some people are will go to Hell.

3 Therefore, God did not chose everyone to salvation.

As I see it, points 1 and 2 are not rationally deniable to one who reads scripture, takes it at it's word. Point 3 three follows from points 1 and 2. I do not like it, but that is what I see in scripture, and unless I come to doubt the reliability of scripture, I do not see myself changing that view.

Ok, thanks. While I do not agree with Calvinism, Calvinism is logical within itself. Arminianism is also a differing system of logic. So often, Calvinist can not see the Arminian view as it is foreign to the logic of Calvinists and Arminians can not see or understand the Calvinist system.

Your view of election is much more logical within the Calvinist system then the double predestination view. If all have sinned, all would need salvation or all would end up in hell. It is therefore, unnecessary for God to reprobate some as all are sinners and are already destined for hell. God would only need to choose some and pass over those already destined for hell, in the Calvinist system.

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Sorry Steven, but I cannot even make sense of most of what you are trying to explain, although I do understand the last sentence. If that first principle is consistently applied, I would expect we might have to put some well established doctrines on the shelf. There is another rule in exegesis and hermaneutics, stemming from a presumption of an inerrant scripture. It two interpretations contradict each other, one of both of them are in error. That one, is why I have had to toss out the pre-trib rapture (that and a lack of scriptural support in the first place) and Arminianism. Too many contradictions.

The plains sense rule itself, makes plain sense, only if it can be succesfully applied to scripture as a whole - another pesky rule - compare scripture with scripture. I find it nearly humorous, that you seek to discredit Calvinism, by assigning it to the category of man's reasoning, and not 'thus saith the Lord', and yet, you appeal to man's reasoning (Hermaneutics), to get your rules of interpretation. For what it is worth, I look first to exegesis for understanding, what does the text say, not so much so hermaneutics, what do we suppose the text means. I do not think we differ too much there, since your first rule of hermaneutics (so you say) appeals to exegesis. When your hemaneutic violates its own first rule, you have gone into the realm of private interpretation, 'What it means to me!'

Sorry, I just have to disagree with your understanding, and not trying to demean you in any way, but I find the understandings of the reformers on soteriology and eschatology, far superior to the understandings you attemp to persuade others of.

Thanks for your comments.

Let me simplify it to this basic question - do we (all) people have choice?

[Littlelambseativy]

Sadly Calvinism is not a gospel and the followers are as much born-again as any of those who follow the other denominations. Calvin was a God fearing man and his words may not please all but they are from the Bible. 

This tearing down of one of the reformers is repulsive and repugnant. God used him as a great reformer who inspired many others. Who are those who should judge a man of God? Let God judge him if he did not please God but I would fear judging an man of God.

In actuality it is a most powerful teaching and interpretation which does not please some here but the effects are obvious since so many object to them.

[Littlelambseativy]

Calvin does not limit the ability of God's foreknowledge as is done here. God says ' I am God, before me there was no other' If He was from the beginning of time and is into eternity to come, and He says He knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb, He knows the number of our hairs, He knows the number of our days, do we not limit Him  to say He does  not know our choice of accepting Jesus? He Knew we before we were born that we would accept Jesus as Saviour and because of this He chose (elected) us to be His and because no one can snatch us from our Saviour's hand God the Father predestined us to be His before we were born. Is this a problem for someone here? It is so simple to understand if one does not over analyze the Bible as we here are tempted to do. The Bible was meant for 'simple' man to understand. Perhaps the problem comes when we over interpret the Gospel to suit our own views.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 1/8/2016 at 3:09 AM, hmbld said:

mega, that makes it sound like God does not desire "all" as only some are chosen. Do you believe in free will?

I am sorry hmbld, I did not see this, I did not mean to overlook the question.

Short question, cannot be adequately answer with a yes or no. However, for now I will put it this way. First, you would have to define free will. Apart from doing that I would say that the natural, unregenerated (not born again) person, has limited free will, but one's will is limited by one's nature, ones ability. However, since the natural man is a slave to sin, he has no more free will than any slave has.

I will expound more on free will when I respond to angels4u's post later, perhaps today, I can get around to that.

[Pamelasv]

And then there are the testimonies where people get divine revelations from God as He reveals himself to them. Especially muslims.  'I was found by those who did not seek me, I became manifest to those who did not ask for me.'  But to Isreal He says, ' I have held out my hands all the day long, to a disobedient and obstinate people.'  I can quote scripture, but don't know where they are. 

There are many scriptures that pop into my mind on this subject because I took special note of them because my dad used to get all upset over the subject of predestination.  

I think I will come back in here with a compilation of scriptures on the subject of salvation.  Get a good look at them all at once.  Maybe that will be interesting. 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 1/9/2016 at 4:29 PM, Willa said:

1 Tim 2:4  Who desires ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim 4:10b because we trust in the Living God, who is savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

2 Peter 3:9b  but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.

Ro 5:18b  NKJV  even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL men, resulting in justification of life.

 

Nowhere does it read chosen.  All is all.  It does say in Ephesians 1 that those who are IN CHRIST reap the blessings enumerated.  And to be IN HIM we must be born again.  So then He is in us and we are in Him.  

1Peter 1:2 NKJV Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (in sanctification of the Spirit) FOR OBEDIENCE and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

It seems to me that all believers are chosen.  But not all people are chosen.  All people are invited, drawn by Gods Spirit and grace, which can be resisted.  Those who resist to the end will harden their own hearts to perdition.  Those who are chosen are the humble in spirit who acknowlege their sin and need of a Savior.  Repentance of heart.    

Of the 10 lepers that Jesus healed,  the 9 go happily on their way while one comes back and falls before Jesus in worship and thanksgiving.  He was made whole.  Perhaps it is those who come back to thank and worship God and who fully surrender to Him, maybe these are the ones who are chosen for sanctification and obedience.  I don't know or fully understand.  But godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation.  It is the work of the Holy Spirit that I call the Holy Ghost miserables---when we know we are lost and have no hope because we can't obey at all, much less perfectly.  We need a Savior.  

For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; and after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another.  How my heart yearns within me!  Job 25-27 NKJV   

 

Yeah right, all means all (except when it doesn't). If you want to say that all means all, without exception, then you should be prepared to prove that, and not assume it just to fit how you hope things are. 

Look in any Koine Greek Lexicon, and you will find that pas/pantes (all) can mean all (they way you think of it), or all of a part, all kinds, or all - but limited to whom something applies.

For example: Suppose a man is speaking to a crowd and announces he is having an open house at his car dealership, and that everyone (all) is invited to come and test drive the new, 2016 Belchfire 500 GT, and to have cocktails afterwards. In that case, is the offer made to those who do not have dirver's licenses, or are too young to drink? No, of course not, all, sometimes means some, or even a just a few.

Consider some of the following verses, and decide if all always means all,  or if all might mean some, or most, or all of a kind or group.

Matt 4:24 The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them. 25 Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and [the] Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and [from] beyond the Jordan.

Does this mean that without exception, that not even one in Syria did not hear the message, and that when they brought sick people, they brought every single sick person in Syria? Maybe, but I sort of doubt it. This was not in the days of mass communication and mass transportation.

By the way, this occurred over and over in the gospels, so much so, that if all means all, one might have to conclude that there were no sick people left in Israel and surrounding regions.

John 12:32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself."

Hmm, interesting! I think Jesus was lifted up. In your estimation, have all men been drawn to Him? I think it is just possible, that perhaps, some have never even heard of Him, let alone been drawn to Him.

Acts 17:21 Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.

That is astounding. Imagine a place in the city of Athens, where not one single citizen or visitor, failed to go just to spend time listening to people pontificate. With everyone spening there time jabbering, it is suprising that anything got done there.

 1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

Oh that is a good one, Paul became a hippopotamus, to every single man, even those he never met, so that by torturing people into submission, he might save some. That would be a literal application, if all means all. Clearly all does not have to mean all.

1 Cor 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;

I'd hate to go to that church, if all 700 people where I attend church all prophesied one by one, that could take some time.

interestingly, you quoted 1 Tim 4:10:
because we trust in the Living God, who is savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Clearly the living God is NOT the savior of all men, unless all are saved. Here, we are meaning, that in the subset of men who are saved, it is God, who saves them all. If all meant all, the "especially" in that verse, makes no sense.

Similarly Roman 5:18, which you also quoted, "the gift that came to all men, resulted in justification". 

So, if all means all they way you want it to, then all men are saved and the whole topic here is silly, since all are justified, all are saved, none are lost, and cpreaching the gospel becomes much less important, sine salvation is universal. I doubt you mean to imply that, but that is the implication whan all mean all inclusively.

You say, "nowhere does it read chosen". Of course not, you cherry picked verses that do not say that, but they do not say the unchosen either. Your selected verses are not about election, those verses are elswhere in the Bible, and if you have read this thread, you are aware that they exist. Just because you can find verses on the topic of salvation which do not mention election, does not grant us any right to ignore them the verses which do. All verses must be considered, and all must agree. If you find a verse that contradicts election (there are not any), then all which will happen, is that we have selectivly chosen verses to prove our point. To legitimatly rule out salvation of the elect, you would need to find a verse that says there are no elect, or the elect are not chosen (contradiction of terms), or something like that.

The subject of "all" makes sense, only when you realise that all does not always mean all, without exception. The offer of salvation is not restricted from anyone. However, not all will get to hear it - not all are able to understand, and not all are granted repentance, not all are given faith.

Roman 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? (they won't) How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? (they won't) And how will they hear without a preacher? (they won't)

So God's offer is real, but, not everyone will get to hear it. Must be a very weak God, if He cannot get the message to everyone, and yet desires all to come to repentance etc. Or, maybe He is just unfair, teasing mankind, putting His offer in the mail with a reply by date, and then not sending the letter until after the date has passed. Maybe He is confusing us, by telling us that all will get the offer, and be drawn to Him, when He is also telling us, the most, will be lost.

Or maybe, we could resolve this myster, if there were just some veres that indicatd thatit is his pleasure, to chose some to salvation, rescueing them from the destiny they earn (the wages of sin is death), instead, granting them understanding and prepentance, grace, a salvation that they cannot earn (but the gift of God is eternal life).

There is an all, all who are saved, 

 2To the church (called out ones) of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified (set apart)in Christ Jesus, saints (set apart ones) by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours

Ya know, there is a passage that reads like this:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5    He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will

Apart from the facts that

he chose us  before the foundationof the world
and  that He predestined us
and that it was according to the kind intention of His will, have you noticed what we are predestined too?

Adoption. Ever thought about that? Does the child have the power or a part in adoption? Or is it the parent, who takes the initiative and exercises their will in making the adoption happen? I know a few adopted people, and of the ones I know the details on, the children had no say so in the process. They were not asked if they wanted to be adopted, they were adopted without getting a vote in the process. maybe that language is intentional, but, that is just an idle speculation to think about.

Now, before you figure out how to respond to my many questions, consider what I asked or what I offered or suggested, and ask yourself, if it might actually square with scripture, what I am saying. You don't want, I think, to when a debate, and neither do I. We just want to understand the truth, so decide whether this point of view is actually consistent with scripture. I rejected it over 30 years, before I came to grips with the fact that scripture has a lot to say on election, predestination, the limitations of free will etc. You might not like it, I didn't, but I have come to embrace it, because I had to confront myself, and ask, if I really wanted it my way, or would I rather be able to accept what the Bible says, without my personal spin, it was a hard pill to swallow for me, but it sweetened in my mouth, the more a learned to submit, and acknowledge the sovereignty God, and stop judging Him on my notions of right and wrong, good and bad, and even be willing to face that my thinking is flawed, my ways are not His ways, and sometimes accepting God at His word, does not have to make sense to me. For me, surrender, though hard,was more important than being right in my own eyes, and in effect trying to tell God He is wrong.

Of course, I never thought of it in those terms, I was just viewing God through lenses of my choosing, instead of allowing Him, the right my prescription. You may not feel convicted about these aspects of God, but I came to be, and can do no other.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

You know, there is one aspect of this thread, that I should have remarked on from the beginning. That would be the title. There is no Gospel of Calvinism, there is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Calvinists, Arminians, and every other flavor of Christian only know the gospel that man is a sinner and separated from God, but God Himself, fixed that problem by sending His Son, , the Son of God, and God the Son, into the world as Jesus of Nazareth, to die a horrible death on a cross, a sinless man dieing to redeem sinners to to God, purchasing, randsoming us, rescuing us from our chosen destiny, our wages of sin. By God's grace alone, can we receive salvation, through faith in Jesus and His resurrection, it is the gift of God. 

A Calvinist believes that, and if you believe that gospel is powerless, you are deluded!

[Willa]

Omega, I do believe in the sovereignty of God, but not your spin on it.  I do believe that all who are IN CHRIST are predestined.  God predestined that all who are IN CHRIST.  Check Eph. 1 again.  

Most of what you said didn't make a lot of sense to me.  I have surrendered my intellect and my ideas to God.  Many of my ideas about eternal security have been modified since I have been here on Worthy.  All of these discussions have forced me to reexamine the Scriptures.  But I your arguements have pretty much left me saying  either What? Or So What.  So if the Holy Spirit chooses to enlighten me otherwise I will certainly accept what He shows me.  But I will not debate the issue.  For me this is wrong and God has reproved me for it because I get a bad attitude.  You have not argued the scriptures I presented in a way that the Holy Spirit can use in my life.  So I will not reply to this subject again.  I am not arminian in my theology, but I am not a good calvinist either.  So pray for me if you wish, or even better, lets agree to disagree and love me as I am.

Blessings,

Willa

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Willa -  I'm not sure I understand this sentence:

• God predestined that all who are IN CHRIST.

It's not a complete sentence "that" -> "what" ?

What does "that" refer to?

 

I wish more people would do this here, myself included:

•   So pray for me if you wish, or even better, lets agree to disagree and love me as I am.

 

Thank you for saying that.