Contemporary Daniel 7 interpretation

[Kan]

 

Hi Kan,

You would do better, I believe to write a comment & then show the scripture concerning your point. As it is you have so much speculation & opinion that I will not even go there. (waste of time & effort bro). So let`s keep to the discussion, Dan. 7 `beasts.` Now you said -

 

That is not correct, as large populations etc do not necessarily equal a Federation. There has to be a specific delineation of power amongst recognizable groups.

 

Kingdoms – Federations of Nations.

God`s word tells us that these `beasts` are kingdoms. (Federations of nations)

`The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth…`(Dan. 7: 23)

These 4 `beasts` are great Federations that rule over the world at the same time for the last beast rises in power & treads down the others.

`….which shall be diverse from all kingdoms & shall devour the whole earth, & tread it down, & break it in pieces.`(Dan. 7: 23)

 

Kingdoms lose their power but still operate intact as a Federation.

These great Federations have their power taken away as great rulers however they continue as recognisable Federations for a short time after Christ returns. (4^th power dealt with).

 `As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion (power) taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.`(Dan. 7: 12)

Marcus said it well -

 

 

We need to respect God`s word & look at what He says not what our opinions are.

Marilyn.

 

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with

[Marilyn C]

Hi Kan,

You said -

 

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with

I think as we discuss the details step by step then it will become clear. I`m on holidays at the moment but flying home tomorrow, so hopefully this coming week I`ll post my first detail of the first beast in Dan. 7.

Look forward to our discussion, Marilyn.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On April 8, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Kan said:

I don't think it says that the three survive the fourth, or that they are reigning all at once, you admitted that, but you say that it can be inferred. Yes it can, if you have other texts which support that, but if not, then we have to remain stationary on this one until we get more info.

I do not want to get wrapped up in some "principle" of yours for a day = year equation because that is not a Scriptural tool for viewing time, nor is this about twelve and a half centuries of Papal rule.

The first three beasts DO survive the destruction of the fourth, but without their "dominion" or "rule" or "authority".  This happens because of the desolations God has decreed will have wiped out the evil, proud rulers.  Daniel reads (here in the NIV):

	Dan 7:12	(The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

 

Now all three suffer the same fate, at the same time.  While their reign of terror is over, their existence is proved by prophecy. Only by using an ultra literal reading saying it doesn't say they were ruling previously can you balk at their simultaneous ruling previous to the formation of the fourth beast.  That's ridiculous.  They had it, and only after the destruction of the fourth beast is it stripped from them.  That means they had whether or not it explicitly says it or not.

So you can remain stationary, but I will move on.  

The first three beasts of Daniel 7 are not synonymous with the head, chest, and torso of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a statue which represents the broad overview of those nations which hold sway over Israel.  There is, however, a meeting of time frames at the end, which is rapidly approaching as clay is "mixing", or more significantly - "Arabs" are NOT mixing with the iron of European style civilizations.

[Kan]

22 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I do not want to get wrapped up in some "principle" of yours for a day = year equation because that is not a Scriptural tool for viewing time, nor is this about twelve and a half centuries of Papal rule.

The first three beasts DO survive the destruction of the fourth, but without their "dominion" or "rule" or "authority".  This happens because of the desolations God has decreed will have wiped out the evil, proud rulers.  Daniel reads (here in the NIV):

	Dan 7:12	(The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

 

Now all three suffer the same fate, at the same time.  While their reign of terror is over, their existence is proved by prophecy. Only by using an ultra literal reading saying it doesn't say they were ruling previously can you balk at their simultaneous ruling previous to the formation of the fourth beast.  That's ridiculous.  They had it, and only after the destruction of the fourth beast is it stripped from them.  That means they had whether or not it explicitly says it or not.

So you can remain stationary, but I will move on.  

The first three beasts of Daniel 7 are not synonymous with the head, chest, and torso of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a statue which represents the broad overview of those nations which hold sway over Israel.  There is, however, a meeting of time frames at the end, which is rapidly approaching as clay is "mixing", or more significantly - "Arabs" are NOT mixing with the iron of European style civilizations.

Your ideas are great, but all you need is some solid Bible to back it up. Maybe just one text that says that all the beasts party together.

If the visions in Daniel 2, 7, and 8 are not layers of the same expanse of time, how come they all begin with the time that Daniel wrote until the end of the world?

Revelation 12 shows that the dragon (the devil) is behind the kingdoms of the world, and that the kingdom reigning at the time of Christ, did the work of the Antichrist, so this business of the Antichrist appearing in the future, with no connection to this one in history is ludicrous. 

As for the year day principle, it is not my idea, it was taught by the great men of the reformation and those who translated the Bible. An understanding of the time lines in Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 12, are all interlocked under one time frame, which includes the ministry and death of Christ. These time prophecies do not make any sense in real time unless applied correctly. Note there are nine time spans altogether, which belong together, and which fit together.

I was aware of the year/ day principle outside of the Bible and its special prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, because I knew from the interpretation of dreams, where time is exactly one day in symbol to a year in ordinary time. So it did not surprise me. I was also aware of the manner of speech in ancient languages where a moon, can be one year, a sun can be one year, as we calculate, and a life time is called the days of life. Example, Genesis - "and the days of Adam were 930 years." No mystery here.

The naive version or the NIV deletes all vital clues, so no wonder you are ready to "move on" and cut the anchor while so close to the rocks in a storm.

The lie about a future Antichrist which does not identify it as the Papacy or generated by it, comes from the Papacy. And so also the lie about the Antichrist being far back in ancient history is also of the Papacy. No surprise there at all. This organisation has been responsible for nearly every death and war since 450 AD. It killed over 70- million people in the name of God. It reigned for 1260 years, a time times and half a time. This is mentioned several times in both books.

The reason the forth beast is somehow shot into the future, or buried in the past is because the Antichrist does not want to be remembered or identified from history. It has been successful with the world I see, but then again the world worships the beast doesn't it?

[Davidjayjordan]

Daniel 7: 2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the
great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: (Babylon) I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted
up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. (King Nebucanezar's fall until
he was humbled by the Lord and got heart and soul   Daniel 3)

 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of
it between the teeth of it: (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon... the three previous ribs of the three previous world governments) and
they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. (Fulfilled by the dual empire of Medo Persia)

 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also
four heads; and dominion was given to it. (Fulfilled by Greece under Alexander's quick leopard like conquest of the world.
This followed by his death, leaving four generals to rule over these countries)

 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had
great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the
beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. The Interpretation being right in Daniel 7 . 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast
shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and
shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. THIS BEING fuflilled exactly by the ROMAN EMPIRE. 24 And the ten horns
out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: (THIS is the Upcoming TEN NATION WORLD GOVERNMENT
which will sign the Covenant.)

 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the
first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great
things. (O.K. Pay attention.... the interpretation is again right there in Daniel 7...24 .... and another shall rise after them; and
he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. (The little horn arises AFTER the 10 Nation Wiorld
Government, and He, the LITTLE HORN is diverse, or diffwerent than the TEN. In other words, He did not sign the
Covenant, and actually works to void the Covenant (Daniel 11) because it is not working and wars are still breaking out. So
how many horns or kings or countries does the little horn called the AC break or destroy. THREE, exactly three countries
are destroyed. How does He do this. What is the greatest weapon on Earth NOW. Nuclear warheads, and so a nuclear
country like Russia, is the only possible way the AC could destroy three whole countries. The AC or little horn destroys
America, France, Britan...or at least neutralises them into utter chaos.)

  Don't believe it .. Read on ... 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the
most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing
of time. (Who speaks against the Lord...the AC. Who wants to install the Noahide laws to bring so called order to his
subjects and worshippers and world citizens. the AC, and who has only three and a half years to do this.... time, times and
a dividing of time... the AC)

 And so NOW reading these verses should make sense to you.....

 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn
that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; (Same thing Revelation 12 says, as
the AC declares war on us, the Bride of Christ, and we are forced to flee into the desert to Petra. Daniel and Revelation state
the same things in the same time frames...exactly)

 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints
possessed the kingdom   (Halleluia, because after the Battle of Armegeddon, we the saints of the Lord do possesss the land
and are the representatives for the Lord on the Earth in the Millenium...the 1,000 Year Rule and Reign of the Lord)

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Kan.....

 Yes,the world does worship the beast,,,,,indeed,,,,      Not sure about all your interpretations or anyone elses,honestly,,,,,if I had anything worthwhile to add ,I would but I don't,,,,,,,,however,I am enjoying your conversation with Marilyn,Spockster,William,,,,,,,very interesting.....................basically ,I fully agree with Ezra & so I will be quiet for a time,or the entire time-lol

   Thank you guys for all reasoning together,politely,kindly & lovingly,,,,,,,breathe of fresh air!                   Love,Kwik

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Kan.....

 Yes,the world does worship the beast,,,,,indeed,,,,      Not sure about all your interpretations or anyone elses,honestly,,,,,if I had anything worthwhile to add ,I would but I don't,,,,,,,,however,I am enjoying your conversation with Marilyn,Spockster,William,,,,,,,very interesting.....................basically ,I fully agree with Ezra & so I will be quiet for a time,or the entire time-lol

   Thank you guys for all reasoning together,politely,kindly & lovingly,,,,,,,breathe of fresh air!                   Love,Kwik

[Kan]

On 4/15/2016 at 3:26 PM, Davidjayjordan said:

Daniel 7: 2... 
he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. (The little horn arises AFTER the 10 Nation Wiorld
Government, and He, the LITTLE HORN is diverse, or diffwerent than the TEN. In other words, He did not sign the
Covenant, and actually works to void the Covenant (Daniel 11) because it is not working and wars are still breaking out. So
how many horns or kings or countries does the little horn called the AC break or destroy. THREE, exactly three countries
are destroyed. How does He do this. What is the greatest weapon on Earth NOW. Nuclear warheads, and so a nuclear
country like Russia, is the only possible way the AC could destroy three whole countries. The AC or little horn destroys
America, France, Britan...or at least neutralises them into utter chaos.)

  Don't believe it .. Read on ... 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the
most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing
of time. (Who speaks against the Lord...the AC. Who wants to install the Noahide laws to bring so called order to his
subjects and worshippers and world citizens. the AC, and who has only three and a half years to do this.... time, times and
a dividing of time... the AC)

 And so NOW reading these verses should make sense to you.....

 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn
that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; (Same thing Revelation 12 says, as
the AC declares war on us, the Bride of Christ, and we are forced to flee into the desert to Petra. Daniel and Revelation state
the same things in the same time frames...exactly)

 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints
possessed the kingdom   (Halleluia, because after the Battle of Armegeddon, we the saints of the Lord do possesss the land
and are the representatives for the Lord on the Earth in the Millenium...the 1,000 Year Rule and Reign of the Lord)

Here again, you have made a steady progress of the Kingdoms as does the Bible and history, then when it comes to Rome and the Papacy, like the others you have jumped right over the time of Rome - the kingdom identified as the forerunner of the Antichrist in the days of Christ and the disciples, and gone ahead into the future.

Notice something about the judgement spoken of in the same chapter, verse 13 "...the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they bought Him near before Him." He came to the Ancient of days, not to the earth, unless God the Father is on earth.

Verse 14 "...and there was given Him a dominion... that all people... should serve Him."

His Kingdom is not established here yet, but the conditions for their inheritance is being sorted so that they "should" serve Him. It is a judgement before His return to earth.

Note verse ten, "The judgement was set and the books opened." Nothing is said about a war or confrontation with the nations, which comes later.

Verse 21 & 22; "the same horn made war with the saints...until the Ancient of days came...and the time when they will possess the kingdom."

Verse 26: "but the judgement shall sit..."

Verse 27: "and the kingdom...shall be given... to the saints...of the most High..."

 

Here is a quick overview - the fourth beast or kingdom = Rome, the horn which lived among the 10 European nations and replacing 3, is the Papacy and its 1260 year reign, then we have the end of Papal power in 1798 AD, then comes the end of the 2300 years, 1843 - 44 AD, when "the sanctuary will be cleansed"- see Daniel 8:14. The judgement will sit (in heaven, in the sanctuary), while the little horn continues to persecute the saints, but it comes to an end, and the Ancient of days destroys it with the earth.

The whole point of Daniel is to reveal the purpose of the sanctuary and the work of our Lord Jesus the High Priest, in contrast to the reign of evil on earth, where there is persecution and not salvation, a false priesthood and defiled places of worship, and corruption with the kingdoms of the world. It is about the battle between Christ and Satan and how it is manifested in the entire history of the world. 

The ten horns you speak about are on the last beast in chapter 17, these will be the leaders of that final global confederation. But the ten horns on the beast of chapter 13, belong to it and not the last beast. Different beasts different horns.

Note that the ten horns on the last beast only reign as kings. There are no crowns on this last beast. there are crowns on the head of the red dragon, and on the horns of the beast in chapter 13, but the last beast is crownless. It is not a monarchical type of rule.

 

[Diaste]

On 3/27/2016 at 2:00 PM, Spock said:

Greetings fellow prophecy students,

Our esteemed learned scholar, Marilyn from Australia, has promoted this interpretation on some threads, but I don't recall one single thread discussing just this, so here goes. 

First off, let me copy and paste the relevant scripture from Daniel 7 so we can refer back to it:

2Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

4“The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it.

5“And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

6“After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

7“After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8“While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

 

The one thing that always happens when i see the discussions on prophecy is happening here. I bet no one is going to like this but most just blow off the interpretation of the dream or the vision that comes from scripture, and they just add their own brand of imagination. This is not good.

For instance, the above is interpreted for us by God in Daniel 7:15-28:

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

I'm not sure how anyone can just ignore the only valid interpretation of Daniel's vision.  The revealing continues....

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

The four beasts are kings. Not kingdoms, cabals, federations, empires, aliens, distant galaxies or unicorns. Kings. End of story. Continuing...

 

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Now Daniel is asking for the truth of the fourth beast and the only truth that matters follows:

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So there we have it. Three kings represented by the first three beasts, and a king and kingdom represented by the fourth. This is no stretch as the word of God is more reliable than our own thoughts. More on that later.

First we can look at one telling description from Daniel 7:

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

This is exactly what happened to Nebuchadnezzar. He was made to live as an animal, ate grass on all fours, hair as long as eagles feathers and obviously had the mind of a beast. Also, the symbol of the Babylonians is the lion. (The Ishtar Gate had 120 lions carved on it and the lion, including a winged lion, is an historical symbol of Babylon.) As in Daniel 4:

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

Later when his mind and heart return he is able to stand again and resume his life. Almost identical to Dan 7:4

The leopard was in question in another reply and I'd like to address that here. It certainly seems the four headed winged leopard cannot represent any kingdom but Greece under Alexander. A powerful predator nation led by four powerful generals that ruled the division of Greece after Alexander. This fits easily with scripture. Now we have a parallel from Daniel 2. If it's true the same kings are represented here as in the statue then what we are seeing is an iteration with different characteristics. There is no reason to believe that these four beasts are not parallels to the statue. In fact it makes sense and removes any confusion.  Do we really think that the statute is Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece followed by the Iron Kingdom, but then the beasts from Daniel 7 are Britain, The USA, Russia, etc, when Daniel is focused on the three greatest Mideast powers in history?

 

[douggg]

On 4/16/2016 at 4:31 AM, Kan said:

The ten horns you speak about are on the last beast in chapter 17, these will be the leaders of that final global confederation. But the ten horns on the beast of chapter 13, belong to it and not the last beast. Different beasts different horns.

Note that the ten horns on the last beast only reign as kings. There are no crowns on this last beast. there are crowns on the head of the red dragon, and on the horns of the beast in chapter 13, but the last beast is crownless. It is not a monarchical type of rule.

The beast in Revelation 17 and 12 is represented by Satan - because those chapters contain a time stamp which the actual beast is still in the bottomless pit.

It is not until Revelation 13 that the beast will have ascended out of the bottomless pit, to possess the slain and recovered man of sin.    It is the same beast in all three chapters..... but, in Revelation 17 and 12 picturing Satan, the actual beast is in the bottomless pit and cannot be seen when he is there, even by John.      John is told about him by the angel in Revelation 17:7.     What John sees is Satan the power behind the beast.

 

Revelation 17 - the beast (in the bottomless pit) timestamped at the time of John.   Ten horns no crowns - come to power in the future.   Seven heads no crowns - the 7 kings prophecy incomplete.

Revelation 12 - the beast (in the bottomless pit) timestamped with 7 years left to Jesus's Return.    Ten horns no crowns, actual beast still in the bottomless pit.    Seven heads have crowns - king 7, the little horn has come to power, completing the 7 kings prophecy.

Revelation 13 - the beast (out of the bottomless pit) timestamped with 42 months left to Jesus's Return.    Ten horns have crowns, they have given their kingdom to the beast, and rule with him.      Seven heads no crowns - king 7 has been killed, ending the prophecy of the 7 kings.     King 7 is brought back to life to become king 8 possessed by the actual beast an unclean spirit - which we would call a demon - which will have ascended out of the bottomless pit.

Edited May 14, 2016 by douggg